Have you studied Islam?

[DHK]

Originally posted by blush:

Originally posted by DHK:
I can't tell, are you suggesting that I think this? You said this before and I suggested that I am quite in agreement with that. You do not need to explain basic theological concepts to me; I have a brain and I know how to use it.

Your former statement: "Your preaching to the converted then, huh" seemed to imply that there were Christians among the Muslims.
DHK

 

[Johnv]

Why do you defend the Muslim and slander Christians?
I wasn't defending Muslims. I wasn't slandering Christians either, especially given that we're commended to pull the logs out of our eyes if we're pulling specks out of our own.

The Mulvis, that is the Muslim priests deliberately misconstrue the facts of Christianity to keep their people in darkness.
I don't think they intentionally lying about Christianity. They're mistaken, in our opinions, and their view of what we believe comes, in my opinion, from a misunderstanding of Christianity.

The Muslim view was never promoted incorrectly by us.
I think I've done at least an adequate job of pointing out some things that we Christians mistakenly believe about Islam, and several people have agreed with my points. It is unfortunate that you do not recognize the difference in pointing out our error and endorsing a non-Christian religion.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Johnv:
The Muslim view was never promoted incorrectly by us.

I think I've done at least an adequate job of pointing out some things that we Christians mistakenly believe about Islam, and several people have agreed with my points. It is unfortunate that you do not recognize the difference in pointing out our error and endorsing a non-Christian religion.

There is a big difference in saying that some or even many Christians do not have an adequate understanding of Islam. You twisting words. What you said is that Islam's warped view of Christianity came from Christians (my paraphrase). That is not true. Their warped view of Christianity comes from their Koran, Mohammed their leader, their Caliphes, and their Muslim Clerics, and Satan Himself. Islam is Satan-inspired religion in direct opposition to the teachings of Biblical Christianity. Why would I endorse a religion endorsed by Satan?
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Why do you defend the Muslim and slander Christians?
I wasn't defending Muslims. I wasn't slandering Christians either, especially given that we're commended to pull the logs out of our eyes if we're pulling specks out of our own.

Here is your quote:

"Muslims often understand the Christian doctrine of the Trinity to be a belief in three gods. Obviously, orthodox Christians affirm a belief in only one true God. Such an affirmation is essential to biblical faith, and is affirmed in both testaments. However, if the Muslim view was promoted incorrectly by us, then they would be right to object.

It is your contention that Christians are to blame for the slanderous and blasphemous beliefs taught in the Koran concerning the Trinity, and concerning Jesus Christ being the Son of God. That is indefensible, and slanderous of every Christian worth his salt. The Koran teaches this garbage. Why are you trying to blame it on Christians??
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Johnv:

The Mulvis, that is the Muslim priests deliberately misconstrue the facts of Christianity to keep their people in darkness.

I don't think they intentionally lying about Christianity. They're mistaken, in our opinions, and their view of what we believe comes, in my opinion, from a misunderstanding of Christianity.

And I don't think they intentionally lie about Christianity about as much as I don't think that they intentionally flew those jet-liners into the WTC towers.
DHK

 

[Johnv]

Come now, blaming Islam as a whole for the WTC tragedy is like lynching all black men in Nashville because a some black men in Sacramento robbed a liquer store.

Don't forget that there were several Muslims in the WTC that day who died the same as all Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus. CLearly, OBL cared not for Muslims in the US, let alone the WTC.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Come now, blaming Islam as a whole for the WTC tragedy is like lynching all black men in Nashville because a some black men in Sacramento robbed a liquer store.

Don't forget that there were several Muslims in the WTC that day who died the same as all Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus. CLearly, OBL cared not for Muslims in the US, let alone the WTC.

"Blaming Islam as a whole for the WTC tragedy," is NOT what I said, which leads me to ask you again: Why do you slander Christians at the expense of defending Muslims?

 

[blush]

DHK, there are also many verses in the Bible saying that God is one. The Deuteronomic Shema comes to mind (Hear, O Israel...)

When I said you were preaching to the converted, I meant that I understood and was in full agreement that Muslims are not Christians (though there are many who will be someday). Perhaps it would have been better to say "I already know this."

And if I understand Johnv correctly, he is not saying that Christians are to blame for the misconceptions that Muslims have. It is just that we are communicating one thing, which I believe is the truth, and they are interpreting it another way. It is not necessarily our fault that they misinterpret it, although I believe there is much we can do to lesson that misinterpretation.

 

[Eladar]

It is not Christians that are bad according to John, it is the Christians who are exclusive that are bad. By excluding others who worship God DHK you are showing yourself to discriminate. I believe this is the problem that John has with your posts.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by blush:

And if I understand Johnv correctly, he is not saying that Christians are to blame for the misconceptions that Muslims have. It is just that we are communicating one thing, which I believe is the truth, and they are interpreting it another way. It is not necessarily our fault that they misinterpret it, although I believe there is much we can do to lesson that misinterpretation.

Not so.


Surah 5:116
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? He saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it then Thou knewest it.
--Mohammed believed the trinity was Mary, Jesus, and God the Father.

Surah 5:75
The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom), had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat earthly food. See how we make the revelation clear for them, and see how they are turned away!
--Mohammed makes Christ no more than a man.

Surah 15:61
Allah hath said: Choose not two gods. There is only One God. So of Me, Me only, be in awe.
--belief in a monotheistic god, denying the trinity, or what he perceived to be Christianity's trinity.

Surah 2:116
And they say: Allah hath taken unto Himself a Son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heaven and the earth is His. All are subservient unto Him.
--Christ, according to Mohammed was just a man. To be the Son of God was blasphemous.

There are many more. Do I need to post more? A misunderstanding of Christianity came as a result of the rejection of the truth from Mohammed himself, not from any misunderstanding from Christian missionaries. They believe what they believe because it is in the Koran, and that is what their Muslim clerics teach them as well, and they refuse to believe the truth about Christianity.
DHK

 

[Bible-boy]

Hello Johnv,

I'm going to address your answers regarding Islam. I'll quote the question or statement that you were responding to and also your answer, then I'll make a statement or ask a question.

Originally posted by Johnv:
1. He believes that Christ was only a prophet and not God incarnate.
True, though Koran states that Jesus was highly blessed and favored.

You have answered correctly, Islam does maintain that Christ was merely a prophet. Whatever else the Quran states about Jesus being "highly blessed and favored" is irrelivent to the discussion. The bottom line is that the Quran teaches the followers of Islam to reject the diety of Christ.

2. He believes that if Christ is to be called the Son of God, then he must have been born out of a sexual union between God and his wife.
A confusion on the part of many Muslims arises when they believe Christians affirm some sexual union between God and Mary in the production of the Son, Jesus. Muslims are right to object to such a belief (actually promoted by early leaders of the Mormon Church), but Christians affirm no such thing. In fact, both the Bible (Matt 1:23; Luke 1:34) and the Quran (Sura 3:45-47) affirm the virgin birth of Jesus.

The god of Islam, Allah, is a radically extreme monotheistic god. According to the Quran and the Muslim mind it is impossible for Allah to have a son that is co-eternal, co-existant, co-equal as is the view held by traditional Christian Trinitarian Monotheism. Allah is one. In Islam there is no "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit." We are not talking about the Muslim idea of the Virgin Birth of Christ here. We are talking about the very identity and person of God. Likewise, Mormon Christology rejects traditional Christian Trinitarian Monotheism. They maintain that God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one in purpose not in person. However, this debate is about Islam so we should not cloud the issues by introducing discussion of Mormonism.

3. He believes that Christ never died, and thus never arose from the dead.
True. The belief is that Christ was taken directly to Heaven at the Crucifixion. The Koran reads: They (the Jews) said boastfully, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God" - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them... no, God raised him up unto Himself. (Sura 4:157-158; cf. 3:54)

According to the teaching of Islam, as I understand it, Christ did not suffer or died. The Sura that you have quoted indicates that Islam teaches that Christ was not killed, "...but they killed him not...." Likewise, the Quran rejects the idea that Christ was even crucified, "...nor crucified him...." I have heard a Muslim Cleric state that it was not Christ who was crucified and died. He said that it was just someone who "looked like him." Now, because of Islam's rejection of the crucifiction and death of Christ there in no atonement. Therefore, no salvation through Christ. Thus, Islam is a works based religion with no guarntee of salvation even if one keeps the five pillars of Islam perfectly throughout one's lifetime. In the Muslim mind the will of Allah is all supreme. If you sumbit to his will and keep the five pillars all of your life, Allah could still choose to send you to hell. Islam teaches that Allah is most merciful; however, the will of Allah is unquestionable and if he decrees that you go to hell you go to hell. There is no assurence of salvation in Islam.

4. He believes that there is one that is greater than Christ and that is Mohammed.
Not true. Mohammed is not considered greater than Christ. Mohammed is a man, imperfect. Being the "seal of the prophets", it is believed that no other prophets have been sent after Mohammed.

Your answer is not quite correct. The Quran teaches that throughout time Allah has sent his prophets to the earth to direct the affairs of mankind. Islam teaches that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael (not Isaac), Jacob, Moses, and even Jesus were all such prophets. Yet, they all got Allah's message wrong or men somehow distorted the messages that they brought. However, according to Islam Mohammad memorized the word of Allah with no mistakes. Thus, his is the true message and word of God that has been preserved in the Quran. This makes Mohammad a greater prophet than Christ.

5. He does not believe that Christ is the second person of the trinity, nor does believe in a triune Godhead.
Muslims often understand the Christian doctrine of the Trinity to be a belief in three gods. Obviously, orthodox Christians affirm a belief in only one true God. Such an affirmation is essential to biblical faith, and is affirmed in both testaments. However, if the Muslim view was promoted incorrectly by us, then they would be right to object.

You are correct in that statement. However, have Christians incorrectly promoted a view of the Triune Godhead and caused the Muslim to object? I'm not talking about non-Christian cults such as Mormonism or the JW's etc. I'm talking about evangelical Christians. The root here rests in the Muslim's radical extreme monotheisitc view of Allah. In his mind God is one and the idea of the Trinity is impossible. Most Muslims are outstanding in math. In their minds 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 and can never equal 1. They accuse Christians of being polytheists.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Question for all:

If you worship the God of Abraham, and over time, your worship becomes flawed due to outside influences, are you now worshipping a false God, or are you worshipping the God of Abraham incorrectly?

The problem is that Islam refers to the God of Abraham but it defines that God in a totally different way. Thus, Islam has never truely worshiped the God of Abraham. Likewise, Islam started as a religion around A.D. 622. That is a long time after the time of Abraham and a long time after Christ's earthly ministry, dead, burial, and resurrection. The turth of the the Gospel was already here on earth. Mohammad distorted the truth regarding the God of Abraham and Christianity and built a false works based religion that he forced upon everyone who happened to be in his path. It is not a question of the Muslim understanding of the God of Abraham becoming distorted over time. The problem is that Mohammad cooked up a false religion based upon a combination of the teachings of Zoraster, Judaism, and Christianity.

 

[blush]

DHK, I'm not referring to what Muslims believe about Christ. I'm referring to what Muslims believe that Christians believe about Christ.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Tuor:
It is not Christians that are bad according to John, it is the Christians who are exclusive that are bad. By excluding others who worship God DHK you are showing yourself to discriminate. I believe this is the problem that John has with your posts.

Hello Tuor,

One big problem... Muslims do not worship the same God that Christians worship. They define Allah in a radical extreme form of Monotheism. According to Islam there is no God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit as defined by traditional Christian Trinitirian Monotheism. You all need to grasp this concept. The god of Islam, Allah, is not the God of Christianity. When dealing with a Muslim you must define your terms and stick to them. Likewise, you must make the Muslim define his terms and then show him his error.

Also, Christianity is an exclusive faith. Islam is an exclusive religion. If fact, if you study all world religions are mutually exclusive (with the exception of the New Age Movement, which teaches that all religions are basicly the same). There is nothing wrong with making the exclusive claims of Christ known to all mankind. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6, KJV). You do not get any more exclusive than that.

[ November 23, 2002, 03:31 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

[Johnv]

Why do you slander Christians at the expense of defending Muslims?
I have already answered this question. You must not have read my reply.

Do you think that my saying that we should not blame all Muslims for the WTC is be slanderous?

DO you think my attempt to pull the speck out of our own Christian eyes before pulling the log out of Muslim eyes, is slanderous, then I can say with bold assurance that my attempt to do so is biblically supported and justified by Jesus Himself.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by blush:
DHK, I'm not referring to what Muslims believe about Christ. I'm referring to what Muslims believe that Christians believe about Christ.

Yes, I think I understand that. The question is why do they believe what they believe about Christianity? John seems to think that the fault lays with the Christian community at large, that we miscommunicated to them somehow a wrong message. That is just not true. They believe what they believe about Christianity because of what they have been taught by their own Muslim clerics, and through no fault of Christians. That is why I posted the verses that I did. Even the Koran teaches directly against the teachings of Christianity.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Why do you slander Christians at the expense of defending Muslims?
I have already answered this question. You must not have read my reply.

Do you think that my saying that we should not blame all Muslims for the WTC is be slanderous?

To accuse me of saying or even implying as much is slanderous. I said no such thing.

DO you think my attempt to pull the speck out of our own Christian eyes before pulling the log out of Muslim eyes, is slanderous, then I can say with bold assurance that my attempt to do so is biblically supported and justified by Jesus Himself.

To continue to blindly accuse Christianity because Muslims believe in a false Christ, a false god, a false religion, is slanderous to all of Christianity to say the least.
DHK

 

[Johnv]

John seems to think that the fault lays with the Christian community at large

Perhaps not fault, but responsibility. I personally don't think it's difficult to get the idea that we worship three Gods. I've even had Jewish friends who have asked why Christians worship two Gods (God and Jesus). For me, personally, if I were a nonreligious person looking at Christians, I would probably also get this same impression. I recently brought a nonbeliever to church for the first time, and I speant countless hours trying to explain the Trinity. I ask myself, what if she wasn't receptive to listening to me? What if I was too confusing? What if I wasn't specific enough? Thank God she was receptive.

The problem is, most Christians can explain it in a way that it makes sense to a believer, but to explain this to a non-believer, that's considerably more difficult.

Kind of like explaining the origin of the internet with someone who never heard of Darpa. As a result, you end up with a majority of the population that knows the internet wasn't invented by Al Gore, but don't know why he couldn't have.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Johnv:
John seems to think that the fault lays with the Christian community at large

Perhaps not fault, but responsibility. I personally don't think it's difficult to get the idea that we worship three Gods.

John, did you look at the verses I quoted from the Koran? Mohammed himself taught directly against the trinity? Why are you attributing this to miscommunication from the Christian community, or because it is a difficult concept for them. They never beleived it from the beginning, because from the beginning they rejected the truth.
DHK

 

[Bible-boy]

Hello Johnv,

You are correct that the concept of the Doctrine of the Trinity is difficult to get your mind around. However, Muslim Clerics know full well what Christians believe about the Trinity. I maintain that Mohammad knew as well. As DHK has pointed out the Quran contains verses that speak directly against the Trinity. The Quran is the ultimate source of the confusion.