Healings Today

music4Him · Apr 23, 2004

Briguy asked:
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Why isn't scripture calling these "gifts" something like "periodic powers" if they are not at our disposal 100% of the time.
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Music4Him is asking:
Is the Holy Ghost at our disposal 100% of the time? In John Jesus said he was sending Him to us.
John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The gifts are here 24-7 but we fail to work in them like we should sometimes. Its like Ken4JC says.....that we have become lukewarm in turning to God and the Holy Bible before we turn to the bottle of aspirin. *Preach it Brother!*

(BTW, Welcome to the board~

)

*This is my opinion so don't quote me*

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But the Spirit moves more in the mission field (IMHO) because some of the people that are presented with the gospel of Christ understand that they can have exsactally what the bible promises and says (i.e. healing, prosperity(i.e. food, clothes, shelter...ect that they have need of), and best of all eternal life through Jesus and thats why (I think) they recive and thats why (I think) the gifts work in the mission field. I put (I think) in there because there could be other reasons as well and like I said that was "my own humble opinion". But I have heard alot from people in the mission fields.
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Briguy asked:
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I ask anyone to show me where any gifts operate any different then any other gifts. A preacher preaches because he has a gift to preach, an administrator administares because he is gifted to do so, a helper helps, etc... ALL GIFTS OPERATE THE SAME. I keep saying this and no one comments or challanges me.
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No need to challenge you Briguy because the whole chapter of 1 Cor.12 says as much it is the same Spirit.
1Cor.12:6 says..
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Briguy asked:
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What is the nature of a gift? It is something fully given from one person to another. It is no longer owned by the giver, it fully belongs to the givee (is that a word).
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If "givee" is not a word it should be.

The gift is still given from God. God anoited Jesus wih the Holy Ghost and with power... go read this in Acts 10:38. As a beliver its up to us if we operating in the gifts. But the gift of salvation would be the most inportant because if you don't have the Lord then you become as a tinkling brass. (If you know what I mean Vern?

)

Briguy said:
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Our Spiritual Gifts are fully controlled by us. They are in us and part of us and operated by us. To say that the gifts of healing or miracles are exceptions to this defies the Bible and plain logic. When Peter, Paul or anyone else operated their gift of healing they healed all who came to them. They would only use the actual gift when the "body" could be edified, which a spiritual gift must be used for according to 1 cor. 12:7.
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Music4Him says your getting closer! Yes it is true the gifts of the Spirit are in us, but still it is the anoiting of "the Holy Ghost working through people" (not the people themselfs) that does the healing to glorify God and to edify the body and/or the church.

Briguy continued to say:
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Therefore it may be that those who had the gift prayed for healings and miracles that didn't happen because in those cases God decided. When they operated their gift they decided who was healed or raised from the dead.
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Music4Him yes you might be right about those who didn't recive healing because in James 4:3 Ye ask, and recive not, because you ask amiss, that ye may consume it on your lust.
Now "to me" this concerns healing also, some person may want their legs healed so they can go to flea markets and shop carnally and in the past wasted money on things they didn't use and didn't give to others that needed it. (BTW, this is just examples of what the lusts could be.) Or maybe so they could dance again....in a honky tonk to the tune of the electric slide instead of asking to be healed so that you can dance unto the Lord. To me that would that be asking amiss? I remember reading that God knows our hearts, so He should really know where our hearts are at (on fulfilling lusts of the flesh or on Him to glorify Him) when we ask for healing? DHK said earlier that some that were not saved but still got healed....I say yes, but the Lord must know more then we do about that particual (or peculiar) person.

~Finally Briguy said:
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I hope this is coming across with a charitable tone as it is intended in that light.
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Music4Him says ditto for her also.

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Ken4JC · Apr 23, 2004

Ken, I hope I didn't scare you off, thanks for your post!!

In Love and Truth,
Brian

Brian, you did not scare me at all, in fact I think you have put a great question in clear context with much love and patience given the topic, I am not clear as to why others have not answered this question yet, but lets see what the Holy Bible has to say about ‘gift’ and ‘operation of gifts’ I think that the whole Bible needs to be taken in context, so the part that I have picked out must be recognized as a part of the whole and studied as such, I say this for my self too as it is much to easy to read you favorite tradition in to a broken bit of text and lose the opportunity to grow in the knowledge of the Father and His Holy Word.

1Cor12: 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

KRR: So ‘who is getting the gift’ or ‘what is its operational source’?

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

KRR: The Lord is the head of all administration and in full control of the operation of this administration.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

KRR: The same God who is head of all this type of operation. Now look at the why or target group of the manifestation of the Spirit, given to the ‘every man’ (body of Christ) to profit withal (the whole body, and direction of our Lord Jesus Christ)

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

KRR: For me at this point I think that the ‘ownership’ is clearly in Gods hands and to say that the manifestation of the Holy Ghost is in singular ownership of the flesh of one man is no more logical than to say I am in singular ownership of Jesus Christ because of his gift of salvation by grace.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

KRR: At this point we see that some will be called to operations and they are gifts to the body in special operation to the whole body by the direction of the Holy Ghost. Now as for the operation of the Gifts, in correct loving relation to God (read 1 Cor 13) they should not be used against the direction of God. You see that the Apostles did not raise all from the dead, or heal all in the land every time, the clear operation of God tells us that this world and our bodies are in temporal, so that to live is to serve God and to die is gain. The silly minded would like to have God on a string, and scold God for not doing the demanded trick at the ‘command’ of their voice. Not understanding that the dedication of maturity in communication with God is why one like Elijah or Elisha could call on the Father. Or that the Apostles passing the man at the gate beautiful one day stopped and healed the cripple that was at that place every day. (Acts 3:1-11) It is not a circus act with great charismatic stars that play on TV; it is a still small voice and obedience to that voice. We pray and God heals. We may have gifts in our flesh that makes us more useable but not better that any other in the body of Christ. Many of us are living with the Lord examples of how the best of the vine is crushed for fragrance, if our life in Christ in adversity is useful to the calling of other to the cross and if God honors me will this pain for the sake of the gospel I am blessed – yes blessed! But if I suffer for the fact that my pride will not submit to GOD, then my blessing is lost. For in good times or in bad times it is not what we hold in possession but it is who holds us as His possession and how willing we are to submit to that direction.

music4Him · Apr 23, 2004

Ken4JC said:
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It is not a circus act with great charismatic stars that play on TV; it is a still small voice and obedience to that voice. We pray and God heals.
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Thats right! I seen some preachers doing some odd things and I think sometimes of what Paul said in 1Cor.14:40
Let all things be done decently and in order.
I don't want to get off the subject...
But speaking of the charizmatic healing sevices I still can't help but to wonder.... if its they get so excited when the Lord shows up?

I still get excited when I get healed.

But then the story of Aarons sons in Lev.10:1-2 when they offered the stange fire....was they excited about what happened in Lev.9:22-24?

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We may have gifts in our flesh that makes us more useable but not better that any other in the body of Christ.
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Not sure I would say gifts in our flesh...per-se.
But in our spirit to make us more useable...yes but God is looking for someone who is obediant too, like you said.

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Many of us are living with the Lord examples of how the best of the vine is crushed for fragrance, if our life in Christ in adversity is useful to the calling of other to the cross and if God honors me will this pain for the sake of the gospel I am blessed – yes blessed! But if I suffer for the fact that my pride will not submit to GOD, then my blessing is lost. For in good times or in bad times it is not what we hold in possession but it is who holds us as His possession and how willing we are to submit to that direction.
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I like what you just said there..... especially about who holds us as His possession and how willing we are to submit to that direction.

Music4Him

tamborine lady · Apr 23, 2004

Hey there Ken4JC, welcome aboard!!

And a big thumbs up for your post #3. You said: ----The silly minded would like to have God on a string, and scold God for not doing the demanded trick at the ‘command’ of their voice. Not understanding that the dedication of maturity in communication with God is why one like Elijah or Elisha could call on the Father. Or that the Apostles passing the man at the gate beautiful one day stopped and healed the cripple that was at that place every day. (Acts 3:1-11) It is not a circus act with great charismatic stars that play on TV; it is a still small voice and obedience to that voice. We pray and God heals---

THAT IS SOOO TRUE. Your whole post was fantastic.

Except that I too think that the gifts work through our spirit and not our flesh!

working for Jesus,

Tam,

DHK · Apr 23, 2004

Originally posted by music4Him:

Music4Him yes you might be right about those who didn't recive healing because in James 4:3 Ye ask, and recive not, because you ask amiss, that ye may consume it on your lust.
Now "to me" this concerns healing also, some person may want their legs healed so they can go to flea markets and shop carnally and in the past wasted money on things they didn't use and didn't give to others that needed it. (BTW, this is just examples of what the lusts could be.) Or maybe so they could dance again....in a honky tonk to the tune of the electric slide instead of asking to be healed so that you can dance unto the Lord. To me that would that be asking amiss? I remember reading that God knows our hearts, so He should really know where our hearts are at (on fulfilling lusts of the flesh or on Him to glorify Him) when we ask for healing? DHK said earlier that some that were not saved but still got healed....I say yes, but the Lord must know more then we do about that particual (or peculiar) person.

Music4Him,
I don't know what kind of God you serve, or what kind of person you are. But after that post you and your God must be the most cruel, capricious, vindictive, vengeaful type of persons, that I have ever come across.
How terrible for you to judge a person's motive to be healed as wrong and carnal, and then blame God for not healing them because YOU think they would use their healing for carnal or wicked purposes. What kind of vindictive God do you serve? Not the God of love that I serve! Not the God of the Bible!

I point point you to Scripture:
James 5:14-15 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Who prayed? Whose prayer is it? Whose faith is it? It is not the one who is sick. If the person is not healed, and you are going to blame someone, then blame the people who prayed, not the one who is sick. The prayer of faith shall save the sick; not the faith of the sick. You guys have is all backwards. Any so-called faith healer must give account of himself. If the person in need of healing is not healed it is the "healer" that is to blame. It is his faith that has failed, not the sick person's. The prayer of faith belongs to the pastor, the so-called faith healer.
You put the blame on the motive (which you don't even know) of the sick person. You play the position of God here. Are you omnisicient?? The reasons that God heals some and not others are entirely up to God, and no one else. For you to speculate on that is akin to blasphemy.

"Oh you weren't healed because you are a wicked sinner and God knows, and I know that you are just going to go out and sin and live wickedly any way, so why should we heal you." What arrogance!

DHK

tamborine lady · Apr 23, 2004

DHK, I just read the post by Music4Him, and I don't see anywhere that Music states that WE decide or know why people get healed. We all know that is entirely up to God! Music said this could be a reason.

And by the way, It IS the faith of the sick person too:

Matt.9-22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

THY FAITH HATH MADE THE WHOLE!!!!

Working for Him,

Tam,

DHK · Apr 23, 2004

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

DHK, I just read the post by Music4Him, and I don't see anywhere that Music states that WE decide or know why people get healed. We all know that is entirely up to God! Music said this could be a reason.

And by the way, It IS the faith of the sick person too:

Matt.9-22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

THY FAITH HATH MADE THE WHOLE!!!!

Working for Him,

Tam,

No laughing matter Tam.
I beg to differ. You are quoting from a pre-cross era when Jesus walked the face of this earth. "Thy faith hath made thee whole," not only refers to physically, but to spiritually. In Mark, Jesus demonstrated this when he healed the withered hand of the man in the synagogue. He said to him: "Thy sins be forgiven thee." Then he demonstrated his power to forgive sins by performing the miracle of healing. His miracles were signs of His deity. Their faith were evidence in Christ as their Messiah, or Christ as deity.
Are you suggesting then that faith in the faith healer is necessary for it would make the faith heaaler a god?
DHK

music4Him · Apr 24, 2004

Whoa there!

DHK said:
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I don't know what kind of God you serve, or what kind of person you are. But after that post you and your God must be the most cruel, capricious, vindictive, vengeaful type of persons, that I have ever come across.
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Music4Him says:
I apologize if you took what I said in my post as being cruel....i.e. Disposed to give pain to others; willing or pleased to hurt, torment, or afflict; destitute of sympathetic kindness and pity; savage; inhuman; hard-hearted; merciless. or capricious i.e. Characterized by or subject to whim; impulsive and unpredictable. or vindictive....i.e. revengeful or vengeaful.....i.e. "vengeful" showing a desire for vengence.
You took what I said (and asked) out of context then started calling names??????? Shame on you DHK! Here you are suppost to be a moderator and you can't even read a post without loosing your temper? Calm down and re-read it again.

Briguy said:
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Our Spiritual Gifts are fully controlled by us. They are in us and part of us and operated by us. To say that the gifts of healing or miracles are exceptions to this defies the Bible and plain logic. When Peter, Paul or anyone else operated their gift of healing they healed all who came to them. They would only use the actual gift when the "body" could be edified, which a spiritual gift must be used for according to 1 cor. 12:7.
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Music4Him says your getting closer! Yes it is true the gifts of the Spirit are in us, but still it is the anoiting of "the Holy Ghost working through people" (not the people themselfs) that does the healing to glorify God and to edify the body and/or the church.

Briguy continued to say:
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Therefore it may be that those who had the gift prayed for healings and miracles that didn't happen because in those cases God decided. When they operated their gift they decided who was healed or raised from the dead.
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Music4Him yes you might be right about those who didn't recive healing because in James 4:3 Ye ask, and recive not, because you ask amiss, that ye may consume it on your lust.
Now "to me" this concerns healing also, some person may want their legs healed so they can go to flea markets and shop carnally and in the past wasted money on things they didn't use and didn't give to others that needed it. (BTW, this is just examples of what the lusts could be.) Or maybe so they could dance again....in a honky tonk to the tune of the electric slide instead of asking to be healed so that you can dance unto the Lord. To me that would that be asking amiss? I remember reading that God knows our hearts, so He should really know where our hearts are at (on fulfilling lusts of the flesh or on Him to glorify Him) when we ask for healing? DHK said earlier that some that were not saved but still got healed....I say yes, but the Lord must know more then we do about that particual (or peculiar) person.
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DHK, Is this the part that upset you?
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(Briguy said it first)
Therefore it may be that those who had the gift prayed for healings and miracles that didn't happen because in those cases God decided.
When they operated their gift they decided who was healed or raised from the dead.
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Music4Him yes you might be right about those who didn't recive healing because in James 4:3 Ye ask, and recive not, because you ask amiss, that ye may consume it on your lust......and you know the rest...

This is one thing that I picked out by re-reading the post. Guess what that doesn't look right after I re-read it either.

Sorry about that...I wasn't really answering to the who "decides" part that Briguy stated first.... if you look it was more to the context as to what James said in Ch.4:3 and why some don't get what they ask for in that context I was using the scripture in possible healing. I had a question mark after the word amiss if you noticed. It was one of those "I don't know coment/questions".....I was just asking. Could this scripture be used fora example for people who were not healed?

But if you still see it as arrogant after this post and you will not accept my apology for writing amiss....then you do what you feel.
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BTW, I hope that Briguy (for who the post was intended in the first place) would have understood what I said.

I didn't mean this to upset no one.
Music4Him

DHK · Apr 24, 2004

Originally posted by music4Him:

DHK, Is this the part that upset you?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(Briguy said it first)
Therefore it may be that those who had the gift prayed for healings and miracles that didn't happen because in those cases God decided.
When they operated their gift they decided who was healed or raised from the dead.
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Music4Him yes you might be right about those who didn't recive healing because in James 4:3 Ye ask, and recive not, because you ask amiss, that ye may consume it on your lust......and you know the rest...

This is one thing that I picked out by re-reading the post. Guess what that doesn't look right after I re-read it either.
Sorry about that...I wasn't really answering to the who "decides" part that Briguy stated first.... if you look it was more to the context as to what James said in Ch.4:3 and why some don't get what they ask for in that context I was using the scripture in possible healing. I had a question mark after the word amiss if you noticed. It was one of those "I don't know coment/questions".....I was just asking. Could this scripture be used fora example for people who were not healed?

But if you still see it as arrogant after this post and you will not accept my apology for writing amiss....then you do what you feel.

I understand what Briguy meant, and because of his previous postings I know what he believes. He believes that these sign gifts (including healing) have ceased, and are not for today. Secondly, when they were in operation during the first century, the disciples were able to use them at their discretion. They were able to heal all that came to them. Why? They had the gift of healing which God had given them. But it is not God's will to heal all the time. Thus there were times in their ministry when God did not heal, just as He did not heal Paul. However, please realize there is no one alive today that has the power of the early disciples to heal all that came to them. The gift of healing has obviously ceased.

What you said smacks of the fraudulent gimmicks that Benny Hinn plays on his unsuspecting audience. These poor people, some of them in desperate hope go to his crusades in real hope of healing. They believe. They believe his word that they will be healed--after all that is what he has been telling them. Just have faith and God will heal you. They have tried every other avenue, and now this is it. People in wheelchairs line the back of his meetings. Every meeting they go back, hearts crushed, discouraged and in despair. Just another fraud who has spoken lies and cheated them out of some money, and that is all. He wouldn't even invite them to come forward. His aides prevented them from coming forward. Hinn knew that he couldn't heal them. It was impossible to heal parapalegics. quadrapalegics.

Now why weren't these people in wheelchairs healed. According to these fraudulent "faith healers":
1. They didn't have enough faith.
2. They have sin in their life.
3. They are asking amiss.
4. They request for healing is carnal.
5. They might use their "healed body" for bad purposes--living a life for carnal purposes.

This is what you seemed to be saying. You are blaming the victim for not being healed, something Jesus would never do. God is a God of love. He doesn't infer that your no good, too much of a sinner, too bad, too carnal to be healed. That is what is implied here. And that makes God cruel, capricious and vindictive. It is not the God of love that I know.
This is the blame game of the faith healer. He loses when he can't heal. So he blames the patient--his victim.
I hope you don't have this same belief.

Others (like Hinn) will no doubt deny they believe this way, but this is what it really ends up to be. God is cruel. He doesn't heal because His children are wicked and bad.
That's not my belief.
DHK

tamborine lady · Apr 24, 2004

Personal attack on moderator DHK deleted.
Tam, if you have a problem with a moderator you need to take it up with an administrator, not on the open forum.
Gina ~~ Moderator

[ April 26, 2004, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Gina L ]

music4Him · Apr 24, 2004

Moderator- a person or thing that presides at an assmbley, debate, ect.; one who moderates.
moderates- 1.within reasonable limits; avoiding extremes; temperate. 2. mild; not violent. 3. holds moderate veiws of politics or religion.

Keeping the definition above in mind of what a moderator is.......

DHK said:
The prayer of faith shall save the sick; not the faith of the sick. (this is in the April 23, 2004 02:37 PM post)

Music4Him asks:
Then would that be faith healing if it is a prayer of faith? I keep saying God is the One who heals not Peter nor Paul, (not even one of us that believe that healing hasn't ceased) can heal, its the Spirit (i.e. the Holy Ghost read Acts 10:38) moving in them, from the OT times till the present. If you look in 1Cor.12 you will see it was written the "gifts of the Spirit". Although with that said faith (as I read it) has a role too or the Word would not have said every man is dealt a measure of faith Rom.12:3~
also Jesus said in Matt.21:21 If ye have faith and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to tha fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountian, Be thou removed.....(go read it) Briguy posed a interesting veiw as to why people weren't healed, I interjected with one possible senerio to the which you commented in such a vehement reply.
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Then DHK said in the April 23, 2004 11:53 PM post:
I understand what Briguy meant, and because of his previous postings I know what he believes. He believes that these sign gifts (including healing) have ceased, and are not for today.

Music4Him says that I must of read Briguys post wrong then? But still you were vehement with me and didn't go to the source that first stated the offence, (only mine) why is that?? Is it because I still believe in the gift of healing is still around today? Lets look at it agian....
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In Briguys post he said:
Therefore it may be that those who had the gift prayed for healings and miracles that didn't happen because in those cases God decided. When they operated their gift they decided who was healed or raised from the dead.
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Music4Him says:
He said it first. You totally ignore that. Like I said I was replying to the healing aspect of what he said. (Briguy I apologise if I took this out of that context that you written it. So was that right for you to lash out at me just because I am the one who doesn't hold the same veiw as you? I seen a mistake in my post to Briguy and was big enough to offer an apology in my earlier post and still you continue to rub your opinion in? You might try a little tact the next time. This is in the "Christian Debate Fourm (All Christians)" not the baptist only. It must be hard for anyone to moderate this fourm because of the different denominations, but I bet Gina or another moderator could probley sort it out. But if it is wrong to defend myself or to belive in what the bible says about healing then so be it.

Music4Him

(BTW, this was written in a level tone of voice. So if you didn't read it that way go back and read it agian.)

DHK · Apr 24, 2004

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

DHK said: Are you suggesting then that faith in the faith healer is necessary for it would make the faith heaaler a god?

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No DHK, don't be rediculous! Faith in God is all that can possibly heal anyone. No man can heal, now or in the past. Only God.

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I don't know how you got to be a moderator, but IMO you are way too hot headed to be one!!

Or maybe you own the board for all I know.

But the powers that be should take a closer look at how you treat people.(Just MHO)

Still working for Jesus,

Tam,

Your faith has been challenged. It has obviously hit a sore spot with you. I have used Scripture, and it has gone unanswered. You have offered no defence in answering what I have given. My post to you was not hot-headed at all. It was a challenge. Give evidence that faith healing is for today. Don't accuse those that are not healed of not having enough faith like the faith healers do. I asked you a fair question. Is this your belief? I stated: I hope not. You didn't answer. Instead you have gone off on your own tirade of attacking a moderator which is not tolerated on this board.

I like a good debate. Center it around the Word of God. Make all the challenges you want. But as soon as you start attacking the position of any moderator you have stepped out of line. You are being duly warned that this type of attitude is not tolerated, and the next time it will be reported, and dealt with. Stick with the subject at hand. Defend your position, if you have one to defend. Refrain from attacking any person, especially the adminstration of the board.
DHK

New In Christ · Apr 26, 2004

Howdy all,

Let me throw a wrench in this. I still don't get why the gift of healing would cease. I can rationally see why many of the others would have ceased. But, I don't get this one.

Maybe God, doesn't want to heal me. Fine.

But, what about the baby born with some defect? Why does God not heal there? What do you say to a mother whose baby is consigned to live the rest of his/her life in a wheelchair? Let's go beyond the apparent physical maladies. How about the mental disabilities, like autism and developmental disorders?

How do you reconcile the notion of a loving God with such a situation, which, on the surface, makes God look mean because He either caused it or refrained from preventing it?

Why would healing cease in these situations?

music4Him · Apr 26, 2004

Howdy to you too!

When you said: ~Maybe God, doesn't want to heal me. Fine.
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All I know is that God is God, He has the power to heal and has always been the One who heals. In Hebrews 13:8 says that ~Jesus is the same yesterday to day and forever.~ If someone says the power of healing has ceased then they better do a search on who is the source of which the power of healing came...and who is it in the bible who presents the gift. God healed in the OT, and in the NT, and stills heals today. No, not all are healed, but rest assured God has the plan.

Eph. 3:19-20 ~
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

You asked :
But, what about the baby born with some defect? Why does God not heal there? What do you say to a mother whose baby is consigned to live the rest of his/her life in a wheelchair? Let's go beyond the apparent physical maladies. How about the mental disabilities, like autism and developmental disorders?

In 1Cor 1:27 it says~
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Do you belive that its true that sometimes in our weakness we are strong? I belive God's special children are strong in their weakness, because of what I seen though a girl named Kim who was autistic. I asked her if she would like to sing with me, even with objections from some of the church members. But oh when she sang you would have thought angels where singing. We sang Amazing Grace and that day she had unmerited favor. In her weakness she was made strong....even with her handicap when she sang.... that day she was whole even if it was for only those few minuets, to me she was whole. I was inspired by her courage to still come up to the front to sing with me, and her love for music. That day when she sang she could be as everyone else. BTW, she didn't know how to read she only used her memory. WOW!

But other then the above testamony, all I can offer as a answer is to go look at all the healing scriptures and see if you can come to a conclusion. Because as you seen in a earlier post I wrote one scripture as one of the possible reasons (i.e.faith) and got called names along with the God I serve by the moderator.

The blind man in John 9:1-41 Jesus said (v.3)it was not the blind man that sinned or his parents... but that the "works of God should be made manifest in him."
~Later in verses 35-38 the blind man belived on Jesus!~ Healed physically and spritually.
You also have Pauls thorn in the flesh (1Cor.12:7-10, in verse 9 it says My grace (unmeritted favor) is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.)
Really there are so many scriptures... that the best thing to do is to just pray James 1:5 over them all and ask God to lead you and to reveal the truth.
BTW, if you concider looking up scripture..I found that doing scripture searches at crosswalk.com really helpful. By using the bible tools they have all I do is put in words like healing, heal, healed, faith, unbelief, belived....ect and it'll bring up all of them.

You asked:
How do you reconcile the notion of a loving God with such a situation, which, on the surface, makes God look mean because He either caused it or refrained from preventing it?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I read the book of Job and realize who really caused Jobs boils and sorrows and realize who held him in His hand with all he was going through. Job had it all (health, family, prosperity, ect.) and lost it all in a day (not of any falt or sin of Jobs). God knew his servent Job and when all was said and done his health, family, and prosperity was restored so much so that it says the Lord blessed latter end of Job more than his beginning.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I hope that some of what I might have written doen't get taken out of context but hopefully it helped.... or helps you or someone else to get the topic of healing today going back in the right direction. So we can all learn and present scripture as to why healings today are not the same as back when Paul, Peter, and ect.... walked. Scripture to present a debate whether healing is still happening today or not, without anyones religious convictions getting offended. Present the scripture for healing today then scripture for why there is no healing and let the people decide. If someone becomes offended write the scripture and ask without trying to degrade that person.

Music4Him

DHK · Apr 26, 2004

"So we can all learn and present scripture as to why healings today are not the same as back when Paul, Peter, and ect.... walked."
I enjoyed that post Music4Him. It seems you have come a long way from your original stance. I agree with what you said; I never have disagreed with the above. God heals according to His own will, not always according to ours. We cannot command God, but we can certainly pray, and often he answers the prayers of His children. Praise God for that. He is the Great Physician, and there is nothing that is impossible for Him.
DHK

Briguy · Apr 26, 2004

Hi all, I see this thread got a little hot but now has settled somewhat. A lot of what happens is just misunderstandings. We want to make our points and don't realize that others may not understand what we are saying.

M4H, You don't need to apologize. You stated what you thought, and I think now have reconsidered somewhat.

Anyway, sometimes I don't follow what you are getting at, like:

""Music4Him says your getting closer! Yes it is true the gifts of the Spirit are in us, but still it is the anoiting of "the Holy Ghost working through people" (not the people themselfs) that does the healing to glorify God and to edify the body and/or the church.""

I am not sure what is meant by annointing. In 1 cor. we are told that the Holy Spirit, gives the gifts as He wills. I don't see where we need a "power up" from the Holy Spirit to use the gift. The Holy Spirit rested FULLY in me the day I placed my trust, by faith, in Jesus Christ. I can be directed by God, as He directs my steps (from Psalms) but I am always indwelled by the Holy Spirit and was given gifts to do His/God's work. There is no annoiting per se later to help me use my gift. Please give me the scriptual reference you feel says this so we can look closely at it. Thanks.

M4H, I really appreciate the tone of your last couple posts. You have managed to catch yourself and display the Jesus who is in you!!

In Christ,
Brian

tamborine lady · Apr 26, 2004

Whew!!! I'm O.K. now!! Got a little carried away there for a minute. Now back to the subject at hand.

No, DHK, my faith has not been shaken. I am solid in what I believe. I think Briguy said it best: sometimes when we say something, others don't know what we mean.(even though it is very clear in the mind of the poster.)

No, I do not believe it is the fault of the sick person if they don't get healed. God has the final say, and nobody knows why some get healed and some don't , except Him.

You said to defend my position if I have one to defend. Yes I do have a position, and I will be glad to defend it as long as neccessary. Now, what was the question???

Working for Jesus,

Tam,

New In Christ · Apr 26, 2004

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Now, what was the question???

Working for Jesus,

Tam,

Here is the original question, posted by me:

I have yet to see from one who believes the gifts of the Spirit have passed an explanation as to why the gift of healing would have passed away. I've only seen a statement that it has passed, not a reason why. I can see why some would think tongues, interpretation, and prophecy have passed, but I don't understand why the other gifts would have passed.

Any thoughts as to the above? Thankyou.

My rationale for asking this is because I know God is not my personal celestial genie, subject to my whim. I can even understand why God would not heal in certain circumstances. I have a permanent illness (pending God's healing or dramatic advancements in medical science). I harbor no ill-will toward God for not being healed. I've learned to live with it and rarely think about it.

But what about others? I love studying theology and doctrine. I don't intend to disparage such efforts. But I can't help but think of the poor mother who's just been told her newborn has some life-threatening disease. Or, the dad whose child has been diagnosed with a mental disability. Or, the, well, the list could go on forever.

In such situations, do you really think the frantic parents care about some cloistered theological debate about gifts ceasing? Hardly. They want to know why the miraculous power of God seems to have lost all value. They may want to know if they can even believe God to save them from hell, if He doesn't even heal their child from disease.

music4Him · Apr 26, 2004

quote by Music4Him
------------------------------------------------
""Music4Him says your getting closer! Yes it is true the gifts of the Spirit are in us, but still it is the anoiting of "the Holy Ghost working through people" (not the people themselfs) that does the healing to glorify God and to edify the body and/or the church.""
------------------------------------------------
Same quote in other words maybe....
By the reciving of salvation that Christ Jesus offers, we "recive" the Holy Ghost ergo reciving the gift of the Spirit are instilled in us. But, its still by the unction/gift/anoiting of the Holy Ghost working through the people that did the healing not people themselfs (i.e.Peter, Paul and others didn't do the healing it was the Holy Ghost working through them). Father, Son, & Holy Ghost = 1 God, So the way I see it God still heals~

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Briguy asked:
I am not sure what is meant by annointing. In 1 cor. we are told that the Holy Spirit, gives the gifts as He wills. I don't see where we need a "power up" from the Holy Spirit to use the gift. The Holy Spirit rested FULLY in me the day I placed my trust, by faith, in Jesus Christ. I can be directed by God, as He directs my steps (from Psalms) but I am always indwelled by the Holy Spirit and was given gifts to do His/God's work. There is no annoiting per se later to help me use my gift. Please give me the scriptual reference you feel says this so we can look closely at it. Thanks.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Music4Him says:
When I say anointing according to the Strongs bible dictionary and the way I understand it.... its a unction or gift.
Isaiah 10:27 ~And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the "anointing". (unction or gift)

1John 2:20 ~But ye have an "unction" (gift or anoiting) from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1John 2: 27 But the "anointing" (gift or unction) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same "anointing" (gift or unction) teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Heb.2:3-4 ~How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4. God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and "gifts" (unctions or anoitings) of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

These are only a few of the scriptures that tell about the anoiting, unction, and the gift/gifts. I don't know if it helped with me putting in the exrta words in the ( ) or not? Hopefully it helps to get across what I see within the scriptures out to you.

I belive also that the Holy Spirit came to dwell inside me the day I accepeted Jesus as my savior and was given gifts of the Spirit to do His/God's work also. Here is scripture In Acts where Peter is speaking:

Acts 10:38, 43-45
38. How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

I don't know if theres a "power up". I'm not sure what you mean by that? Unless you mean by exercising your faith and taking authority over sickness? All I know is that when the deciples could not cure the lunitic in Matt.17:14-21 Jesus said that this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. Would that be a type of "power up" your speaking of? You also asked for a scripture that tells me how to later use the gift? (I hope I understood that question right?)

James 5:14-16 (written loosely becase it has been posted already).....(v14.)any sick among you?...call for the elders and let them pray.....(v15.)And the prayer of faith shall save the sick....(v16)Confess you faults and pray for one another, that ye may be healed.

I don't know if I am the only one that sees this but there are several different ways people were healed throughout the bible.... Although it is God who worketh all in all 1Cor 12:6~

Thank you both (DHK and Briguy) for the kind remarks and I'm glad that this debate is back on civil terms as well so that we can reason together and give our veiws without anger.
Healthy debates are more productive than debates with strife.

Music4Him

BTW, my computer has been overloaded today so if something don't look right or don't make since ask me cause I may have gotten side tracked or stuck a copy and paste in the wrong place.

DHK · Apr 27, 2004

Originally posted by New In Christ:
Here is the original question, posted by me:

I have yet to see from one who believes the gifts of the Spirit have passed an explanation as to why the gift of healing would have passed away. I've only seen a statement that it has passed, not a reason why. I can see why some would think tongues, interpretation, and prophecy have passed, but I don't understand why the other gifts would have passed.

Any thoughts as to the above? Thankyou.

Click to expand...

It is a good question. The very reason that you believe tongues, interpretation, and prophecy have passed, has much to do with the reason that I believe at least what some call the "sign gifts," if not all the gifts of the Spirit, have ceased. Tongues in particular is mentioned as a sign to the unbeliever, particularly the unbelieving Jew in 1Cor.14:21,22. It would cease, along with prophecy and and knowledge. The Apostles went forth with "signs and wonders." It was by these gifts, these extraordinary miraculous first century gifts of the Holy Spirit that three things were established:
1. the gospel message was authenticated by them.
2. The Apostles themselves were authenticated by them.
3. Some of them were used to give revelation because the Word of God was not complete.
4. Tongues in particular was a special prophetic sign to the Jews who did not believe the gospel message.

The gift of healing passed away when the other gifts ceased by the end of the first century. But that doesn't mean that healing passed away; only the miraculous nature of the gift that God had given to the Apostles.
God still heals. He answers prayer. We live in a sinful world. It is cursed, as is man. Sickness is part of this world and a part of life. The Bible teaches us that we wait for the redemption of our bodies (Rom.8:23). In fact in the preceding verse it tells us that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. There will come a day when there will be no more sickness, no more pain and suffering, and no more death.

For the believer we may not understand everything but we can understand this much:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

God is still on the throne. He is sovereign, and never allows anything to happen that doesn't have your best purpose at heart. At the same time he won't take away your free will to sin, and bring the consequence of sin upon yourself or your children. People do it everday. Children are born with drug addictions, mentally retarded, with alcohol syndrome, and so on, all because of a parent's recklessness in their pregnancy. Sin has its consequences. A drunk driver will live the consequences of his actions. God allows man to choose for himself. And thus much of the sin in the world is the direct result of man's sin.

But some of it isn't:
John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Some are sick, infirm, have disabilities, etc., simply for the reason that God might be glorified in them.
The Bible teaches that in all things we need to give thanks.

Philippians 4:11-13 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
DHK

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