Healings Today

[music4Him]

LOL well Briguy I didn't mean to twist it......guess I was pulling the wrong rope???? teee heee heee

Brian, I'll admit I don't have no PHD's, but each example works for me. Because there is one thing that we should agree on and that is we have to have God before the gift will work. Yes with preaching, helps and administrations...even healings today we need God and it is a gift. But I feel there is no set formula on how any of the gifts work (i.e.prayer, faith,...ect), but realy could it be how the Holy Spirit moves on each individual?
exsample: Some preachers can preach a blue streak, while others can preach until you fall asleep and fall out of a loft.

 

[DHK]

Peter and Paul could heal and raise the dead when they chose and for the purpose of spreading the gospel in the early church. The healing/miracle gifts gave their message authority. OK, please address my example directly when responding to this post. Thanks much!!

That was Brian's quote. Does anyone have this gift today, and is able to do these things today? Benny Hinn has tried and failed proving himself to be a false prophet. What about others?
DHK

 

[music4Him]

The healing/miracle gifts gave their message authority.
So then you would say we need no authority today? That authority being wrought with healings and miracles was only for the early church?

The elders of the church was told they could pray over the sick, anoiting them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save them. (James 5:14) Now what if the elders of one church today (let say at DHK's church) and the elders there really practiced this part of the bible to the letter and everyone started getting healed so much so that all who came got healed...except just a few. Would you then say hold on a minuet this hasn't happened since 70 A.D.? But then just a few were not healed then are those elders judged as false prophets? Is that how it says to judge who's a false prophet? It says in 2Peter all of chapter 2 it tells of the false teachers and gives a discription on what to look for. Here is some of what it says.

2Peter 2:10-19
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

But now I have a question let say if Benny Hinn cast out a devil out of someone then what? Would he still be conciderd false?

Matt. 12:26 -
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Mark 9:38-40 ~ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part.


Music4Him

 

[tamborine lady]

Amen Music, especially this scripture:

Mark 9:38-40 ~ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

:aplause

Tam

 

[DHK]

But now I have a question let say if Benny Hinn cast out a devil out of someone then what? Would he still be conciderd false?

HINN SAYS DEAD WILL BE RAISED TO LIFE AT TV SETS
Late Dec. 1999
"Charismatic leader Benny Hinn on Paul & Jan Crouch's TBN said people are going to be raised from the dead watching TBN. He said 'People are going to be canceling funeral services and bringing their dead in their caskets, placing them before a TV set, waiting for God's power to touch them.' He said they would be raised from the dead by the thousands (11/22 Chr. News)...Hinn...has left his Orlando church and moved to Dallas. In Jan. he breaks ground for a $30 $35 million Healing Center in Dallas, which will operate 24 hours a day when opened in 2001." (THE CALVARY CONTENDER, VOL. XVI NO. 24, December 15, 1999)

The Bible makes two requirements about prophets:
1. Everything that they prophesy must come to pass--not 50%, not 75%, not 90%, BUT 100% or their prophecies must be 100% accurate 100% of the time, or else they are a false prophet. If they fail in one prophecy they are to be taken out and stoned to death.
2. Everything they prophesy must be true according to Jehovah. In other words it must be centered around Jehovah and not any false God.

Benny Hinn loses on both counts. His nine-member trinity is a false god; it is not the God of the Bible--he is a false prophet.
The above example, (i.e., the prophecy of raising the dead) never came to pass. Therefore, he is a false prophet. He is a fake, a fraud, a person that is being used of the devil. I doubt that he is even saved. He preaches a false gospel.

If any bring not the doctrine of Christ...don't allow him into your house, neither bid him God speed for he that bids him God speed is a partaker of his evil deeds.
In this day and age if you allow Benny Hinn into your homes via television then you are not only partaker of his evil deeds you are receiving one who has not God. (2John 9-11).

 

[music4Him]

Well then I guess it is safe to say that we should not have TV's then, because worst than TBN and Daystar, parents will let their kids watch cartoons! The cartoons I have seen here latley when visiting my grandson....whew buddies! I can't belive the sneeky ways they throw the hidden worldly messages. Sherick (sp?) the green man with the talking donkey (and I ain't talking Balaam's donkey either).

Seems that we need a balance but,I say "thank goodness" for christian TV because there are still a few that are humble and preach the gospel. Although I still would rather go to church and fellowship with other christians. There are shut-ins and the sick and elderly who can't get out or those who don't have the transportation..... Thats all they might have if they want to hear preaching.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

As far as dead being raise what about the ones who recived Christ by watching Christian broadcasting through TBN? I am not defending Benny and if he has done wrong the the Lord will take care of it. I don't know, but I guess I ought to visit the web site where you got your info.

Music4Him

 

[DHK]

I am not saying don't watch TV, I am just saying, Be careful who you watch.

 

[shewfly]

Phil. 1:15. (NASB) Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will;
16. the latter {do it} out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel;
17. the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.
18. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice,

I think even Paul had his Benny Hinns too. Same scheme just different people. Paul really got upset when others tried to cause those Paul had taught to "fall from grace". The only way that I know of to "fall from grace" is to try and earn it. For some strange reason many people in churches today think they can "grow into grace", Which is impossible, we "grow in grace".

1 Cor. 12 seems to get everyone looking at the gifts instead of "The Body of Christ". The gifts, in my opinion are given by the Holy Spirit when and where He wants for the express purpose of growing the Body of Christ in love and unity instead of dividing it. Ministry is not driven by the gifts, but the ministry is driven by God. I also think those gifts are not permanent, but occur while we are walking the walk, and they point to a Loving and personal Savior.
God Bless

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Well then I guess it is safe to say that we should not have TV's then, because worst than TBN and Daystar, parents will let their kids watch cartoons! The cartoons I have seen here latley when visiting my grandson....whew buddies! I can't belive the sneeky ways they throw the hidden worldly messages. Sherick (sp?) the green man with the talking donkey (and I ain't talking Balaam's donkey either).

Seems that we need a balance but,I say "thank goodness" for christian TV because there are still a few that are humble and preach the gospel. Although I still would rather go to church and fellowship with other christians. There are shut-ins and the sick and elderly who can't get out or those who don't have the transportation..... Thats all they might have if they want to hear preaching.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

As far as dead being raise what about the ones who recived Christ by watching Christian broadcasting through TBN? I am not defending Benny and if he has done wrong the the Lord will take care of it. I don't know, but I guess I ought to visit the web site where you got your info.

Music4Him

I also thank God for Christian Television. I am a traveling salesman and at the end of the evening in a motel I think that TBN is the greatest thing I can find on T.V. '
With all the bad things that can come into a motel room while using the manly remote control why not watch something that edifies?
By the way If I want to know about Benny Hinn i will go directly to his website: http://www.bennyhinn.org

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by atestring:
By the way If I want to know about Benny Hinn i will go directly to his website: http://www.bennyhinn.org

From the website of Benny Hinn (posted above), in his statement of faith:

We believe deliverance from sickness is provided for in the atonement and is the privilege of all believers (Isaiah 53:4-5; Matthew 8:16-17).

Benny must be greater than the Apostle Paul who said:
Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Paul accepted his "thorn in the flesh" as an infirmity from God, and therefore gloried in it, or rejoiced that the power of God would rest upon him. God uses sicknesses, weaknesses. As Paul concluded: "For when I am weak then I am strong."
But Benny Hinn preaches a false theology--a theology that says that ALL can be healed; All should be healed; it is God's will for ALL to be healed. He is wrong. This is not a Biblical teaching.

Benny Hinn: Yes, Lord, I'll do it. I place a curse on every man and every woman that will stretch his hand against this anointing. I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry. But any man and any woman that raises his or her hand in blessing towards this ministry, I bless that man. I bless that home! I bless that family.

...Benny Hinn: Under this anointing, the words I speak cannot fall to the ground. Under this anointing, everything I say, happens. (Praise The Lord, Trinity Broadcasting Network, September 10, 1999)

http://www.raptureready.com/rapture/ssbh1.html

Is this the ministry of a Spirit-filled Christian?

HINN'S HOARD- Two recent television programs of CNN dealt with Benny Hinn, the outlandish charismatic evangelist who delights in ‘slaying' people in the spirit.

They revealed that Hinn, with his monetary hoards, is far removed from the humble Saviour, Jesus Christ, who had no place to lay His head, or the apostles Peter and John who acknowledged that 'silver and gold had (they) none.'

Hinn seems to be managing quite nicely thank you in a house worth $650,000 US, which he claims was not paid for with ministry funds.

It was also revealed that when traveling he stays in Presidential suites at as much as $2000 per night.

A trip of several days to Europe by Benny Hinn and his entourage (flying on the Concorde and staying in luxury hotels) cost $9000 return for each of them.

His ministry took in $35 million in 1995 and $50 million in 1996. On his television programs he appeals for donations of $10,000, $50,000 or $100,000. For donations of $100 and $500 respectively, Hinn offers his viewers personally autographed Bibles and Benny Hinn books. He also offers Benny Hinn coffee mugs. —Paid no doubt, by the mugs that support his outlandish ministry.

HINN'S HERESY - Benny Hinn made the following statement during an appearance of CNN's ‘Larry King Live' program, ‘God did not have to send His Son, but He did because He uses men'. It is Hinn's contention that Christians are ‘little Messiah's' and ‘little gods'. He has even gone so far as to state, in reference to himself, ‘I face devils as the Son of God.'

http://bz.llano.net/baptist/hinnsgoldenegg.htm

The perfect model of a servant of God??
Hinn's heresy is startling. God didn't have to send His Son. His "little god" theology is well known and well spread. "We all are little gods running around this world," he has said. Heresy!

Hinn's Healing Hinders Health - Benny Hinn's "Miracle Crusade" in Nairobi resulted in the death of "four Kenyans, including two young children." A Reuters report 5/4/00 said the four "died at a religious meeting while they waited for miracle cures from a visiting Am. evangelist." Police told the Kenya Times "the four had been released from a hospital to be cured at Benny Hinn's "Miracle Crusade." The report said "ten other people suffered serious injuries including broken jaws after falling from trees..." trying to get a view "...of an American preacher." Hinn's presence attracted up to a million people in his two-day weekend meeting. Don't look for this tragedy to be reported on the Hinn Ministries website. This will increase the mocking of the true "messengers of God" and a despising of "His words...until the wrath of the Lord" arises against such mockery of truth "until there is no remedy." (2 Chron. 36:16) -WWM

http://bz.llano.net/baptist/nv005.htm

I thought he was supposed to have the gift of healing?? He couldn't heal those who actually got killed or injured at his own crusade could he? The real or genuinely sick he cannot heal. There must be a reason for that.
DHK

 

[atestring]

DKh,
Your comments come across in the same spirit as those that said to Elishah, "Go up baldhead"
and like those that said "physician heal thyself"
The Bible says in Psalm 1 "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor SITTETH IN THE SEAT OF THE SCORNFUL."

 

[tamborine lady]

Atestring,

Good to hear from someone who can watch TBN and discern the good from the bad! Praise the Lord.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Also this scripture that you posted is right on!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Bible says in Psalm 1 "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor SITTETH IN THE SEAT OF THE SCORNFUL."

Go Atestring.

God Bless,

Tam

 

[Briguy]

M4H writes: """So then you would say we need no authority today? That authority being wrought with healings and miracles was only for the early church?"""

Hi M, Once the Bible was complete and able to be copied it became the authority. We see preachers to this day hold up that dear Bible and say things like, "I didn't say so and so, but it is written right here in the very Word of God, so you better listen to it". In the early church there was only written OT teachings. With the birth of the new "body of Christ" came the need for new authority to go with the new teachings. In the years before the OT was the authority by which men of God preached about God. In the early Christian church God first used healing and miracles, as gifts, to show the authority. The authority then changed to the Bible when God completed his revelations and His Word,and in its fullness was written down. Hope that helps your question.

I see there have been no responese, directly to Walguys posts or mine for that matter. Carol, atestring, M4H, if you are correct in your interpretation of what we have been discussing you should have no problem refuting what we have said. Looking forward to some deep responses!

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[music4Him]

Once the Bible was complete and able to be copied it became the authority.
Where in the word of God is this told or taught?

Music4Him

(M4H or Music is fine too)

BTW, I looked for Walguys post on this fourm and its not there?

 

[New In Christ]

Originally posted by music4Him:
[QB] Once the Bible was complete and able to be copied it became the authority.
Where in the word of God is this told or taught?

Okay, now you've got MY attention! Are you asking where in the Bible is it taught that the Word of God is our authority? Or are you asking where in the Bible is it taught that it was ever completed? Or are you asking where the Bible teaches it's completion negates the purpose of the Gifts of the Spirit?

Just trying to clarify so I can follow the rest of this discussion.

 

[Briguy]

M4H, I am really sorry, I guess the Walguy posts were in the other Healing thread. My mistake. You can feel free to go there and respond but it was wrong of me to ask you to do that here.

M, we both know that the Bible is God's written word and that God's Word is our authority in all matters. It is hard to use the Bible to prove it has authority unless one accepts already that it has authority. The scriptures say they are God's Word and what they are for. The complete story of man's fall and God's plan of salvation through His Son is only told in the Bible so can only be fully understood within the completed Bible's context. It self-authoritizes by what it is. It couldn't be the full authority until it was complete, with the complete message and doctrines, therefore that missing authoritative power was filled in for by the gifts of healing and miracles. As I write that I know it is a little foggy sounding. I hope you can clear the fog away and see what I am trying to say. Take care, thanks for the good Christ-like discussion,

In Christ,
Brian

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by atestring:

The Bible says in Psalm 1 "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor SITTETH IN THE SEAT OF THE SCORNFUL."

That is right, and that is the exact reason you should stay away from Benny Hinn and his many heresies. Our authority and standard by which we measure truth is the Bible, not experience. According to the Bible, Hinn is a false prophet and a heretic. Again, the Bible says:

"A heretic after the first and second adomonition reject!"

"Come about from among them and be separate saith the Lord."

Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

"Don't walk in the counsel of the ungodly." His theology convinces me that he is ungodly--that is, that he is not saved.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Avoid him. He teaches doctrines contrary to that which you have learned, contrary to which the Bible teaches.
DHK

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by Briguy:

M, we both know that the Bible is God's written word and that God's Word is our authority in all matters. It is hard to use the Bible to prove it has authority unless one accepts already that it has authority. The scriptures say they are God's Word and what they are for. The complete story of man's fall and God's plan of salvation through His Son is only told in the Bible so can only be fully understood within the completed Bible's context. It self-authoritizes by what it is. It couldn't be the full authority until it was complete, with the complete message and doctrines, therefore that missing authoritative power was filled in for by the gifts of healing and miracles. As I write that I know it is a little foggy sounding. I hope you can clear the fog away and see what I am trying to say. Take care, thanks for the good Christ-like discussion,

In Christ,
Brian

Brian when you said:
It couldn't be the full authority until it was complete, with the complete message and doctrines, therefore that missing authoritative power was filled in for by the gifts of healing and miracles.

Yes but what about the prophcies that have not been completed? See this is why I think this where the strife begins between the Charmatics/Pentacost people and the Baptist, because there is a scripture that alot use to say that this is where its completed and that which is perfect it the bible.

1Cor. 13:8-12 ~ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

BTW, I wonder how many people lose hope because they were told that healing wasn't for today? To read the bible and to see all the wonderful works of the Lord, but then be told He don't work like that anymore? The best way I can describe the feeling of being told that, would be like making one of those old time apple pies thats still warm...you know... those pies with the buttery flaky crust that crumbles when you sink the fork into it...oooh and that apple cinnamon filling is just oozing like warm jam... Anyhow you can smell it and you mouth is watering because you got a piece of it on a fork headed for your mouth.... right when you are about to take a bite... someone knocks that fork right out of your hand and says nope thats not for you... How would you feel?
This is why I won't tell no one that the gifts of healing is not for today, because it is for today. I also think it would be a gift to be healed. Just as it would be a gift to pray the prayer of faith for someone and lay hands on them with anoiting oil and they were healed. Doesn't the scripture tell us this much? To me the way I read it the Holy Spirit still works and so does the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
BTW, I hope this is read in the charity that it is written.

Phil.4:7-9 ~ And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Music4Him

 

[DHK]

Music4Him,
Please try to see the difference between the gift of healing (which has passed), and God's power to heal, which He still does today.
We also believe in praying for the sick according to the passage in James 5. We also have seen people healed. There is no one on this board that denies that God heals. We believe in a miracle working God. Our Lord is the Great Physician. He heals.

But frauds like Benny Hinn who claim to have the New Testament "gift" of healing, give Christianity a bad name. People go there and do not get healed. That not only makes Benny Hinn a liar and a false prophet, it makes it look like God is a liar because of his fraudulence. Peter Popov does similar things.
The "gift of healing" has passed. If it hasn't these people would be able to get out of their own environments, walk into a hospital, and heal all that are there. But they won't because they can't. They can't substantiate the claims that they make. They do not have the "gift of healing."
God does heal, but not the way they say He does.
DHK

 

[New In Christ]

Originally posted by DHK:
Please try to see the difference between the gift of healing (which has passed), and God's power to heal, which He still does today.
We also believe in praying for the sick according to the passage in James 5. We also have seen people healed.

Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that the above is correct, is there any basis for believing and/or expecting that God WILL heal, even if only in a particular circumstance? Or is healing more random, that is, we follow the guidance of James 5, but may be denied our request for healing?