You and I do not seem to agree just what that example is. You seem to be suggesting it is a private prayer language only God understands. I am saying that is, in fact, not what it is at all.
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Health Benefits of Tongues
- Thread starter plain_n_simple
- Start date
You and I do not seem to agree just what that example is. You seem to be suggesting it is a private prayer language only God understands. I am saying that is, in fact, not what it is at all.
You may be right. What led me to my conclusions was Paul speaking of utterances that were unintelligible to the mind. But beneficial to the spirit even to the point of building up an individual (contrasted with building up the church, of course).
To who's mind?
How can something be beneficial to our spirit if we do not understand what is being communicated? It is not possible.
I have never spoken in tongues and I believe the gift irrelevant today.. but I have benefited from things I did not understand. Come to think of it I have also tried to express things that I could not put in words.
If someone tells me that they met someone who spoke another language they were not trained in and they were able to preach the gospel in a way they understood then I would agree that is God ordained tongues.
If someone starts jiber jabing in a church service or in their closet uttering nothing anyone understands or is coherent in any way I would disagree that is tongues.
In fact if someone ever started that mess in our church services I would end it quickly.
Yes, I believe the same (although I'd not accept the first account without confirmation).
1 Corinthians 14:1-5 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:14-15 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
1 Corinthians 14:27-28 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
Do you think that it is possible that some at Corinth spoke in tongues in private (they kept silent in the church, but spoke between himself and to God)? In other words, do you think that some in Corinth genuinely prayed in tongues apart from the congregation? If tongues were to affirm the teachings of the apostles (as Yeshua1 suggests) then is it not odd that Paul allows for tongues spoken in private as this certainly fails to meet that criteria?
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You assume something about tongues in Corinth that I do not. You assume it was a gift of God in a supernatural form. I do not. Paul's use of tongues is about the giving of testimony in their home language among a corporate body of believers where many did not speak that language. It is not a gift of God.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
:laugh:If I tried to sing I suspect the hearers would think I was "speaking in tongues"!:laugh:
Thanks for sticking with the conversation enough for me to understand your position here. I just realized that your point was that tongues in this passage was not supernatural but instead people speaking in their own language which would be foreign to the congregation without an interpreter. I like your reasoning because the practice of tongues is foreign to my experience and your conclusion provides a concise solution for the issue. Unfortunately, I believe the solution to be less than adequate.
My understanding that "tongues" here was a gift of God rather than merely speaking one's native tongue was not an assumption but my understanding of Paul's words. How do you fit verses 13 and 14 in with the idea that these tongues merely speak of one's native language (if you speak in a tongue, pray that you may interpret; if you pray in a tongue, your spirit prays but your mind is unfruitful)?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
plain_n_simple may be correct. Women have the gift of tongues more than men; that is they talk more than men do. Now when one is engaged in conversation their heart rate goes up, sort of like in aerobic exercise. Women live longer than men. I believe it is because they talk more than men do!
How could that be?
First, their home or native tongue was Greek, the universal language of the empire. Everyone knew it.
Second, the context from 1Cor.12:1 to the end of chapter 14 is about spiritual gifts, and the gift of tongues is listed as one of those gifts.
Third, Paul does not condone the praying privately in another language (which the word tongue means). Speaking in another language was always for the benefit of the entire church as are all the spiritual gifts. There is no such thing as a "selfish gift."
"Let him pray to himself," does not necessarily mean "pray to himself in another language." Of what benefit would that be? Prayer is communication.
The best way to communicate with God is in your native tongue, not another language.
Definition, definition, definition!!
From the Greek, please!
Tongues: _________________
Language: ________________
Prophesy: ________________
One post at a time, please ~ no flooding..... :love2:
:saint::tongue3:
From the Greek, please!
Tongues: _________________
Language: ________________
Prophesy: ________________
One post at a time, please ~ no flooding..... :love2:
:saint::tongue3:
From the Greek, please!
Tongues: _________________
Language: ________________
Prophesy: ________________
One post at a time, please ~ no flooding..... :love2:
:saint::tongue3:
Tongues - Glossa
Language - Glossa
Prophesy - propheteia
OK, I get that. Now what is the Spiritual interpretation and application?
1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
--This is just one of the purposes of tongues. It was for the unbelieving Jew. But it was always in the confines of the church. The spiritual gifts were given to the church--all of them.
--"this people" is Israel. They will not believe. The two verses are connected. It specifically refers to unbelieving Jews.
The context begins here, Paul writing to the church at Corinth, says:
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
In verse 4 he explains that there are many kinds of gifts:
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
In verse 10 he includes tongues as one of them:
1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
--The languages were supernaturally given, as were the interpretation thereof.
A summary of the gifts are given here:
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
--Notice that they are listed in order of importance: First, secondarily, thirdly, after that, then, and the last on the list is tongues, the least important gift of all.
In chapter 14 there seems to be a contrast between the gift of tongues and the gift of prophecy. The gift of tongues was not profitable because no one could understand it if there was no one to interpret. But prophecy edified.
All the gifts were to be used for the church. That was the emphasis of chapter 12. They were to work in unity together for the edification of the church.
Paul said:
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
--Paul used this gift a lot. He was a missionary and started many churches. He spoke in the synagogues often. It was a gift for the unbelieving Jew.
But it was also a gift used to verify his apostolic office that he was indeed an apostle, and that his message was from God (Heb.2:3,4).
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
--These are instructions to the first century early church, particularly here at Corinth, how to use this gift properly in the church. It was a gift to edify the church. It could be used within biblical guidelines, but prophecy was better. Even prophecy had its limitations.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
End of argument
End of argument
Tongues always refers to a real language.
Thanks. I've read that many times. I'm convinced (convicted) that a Spiritual interpretation and application would be as follows:
Wherefore, the ability to speak in another language to an individual or people group is not for those who are already saved by the Grace of God, but for those who remain unsaved, for the purpose of winning them to Jesus. Such ability is especially important for missionaries. Presenting an inspired message to an individual or people group is for those who are saved, by the Grace of God, for inspiration in their walk with Jesus.
I submit that there are (still) pastors in the Body of Christ who are (actually) born again who present Spiritually inspired teachings, commentaries and messages on Sunday morning and otherwise. I submit that there are among them those who are able to speak, in a learned foreign language or through an interpreter, as Spiritually inspired and necessary.
:type:
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