HELL IS NOT LAKE OF FIRE

[DHK]

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Paul was confident (and I am also) that God would perform "that good work" (of completed sanctification and redemption) in him until the day of Jesus Christ. In other words he would never be lost. He would, with all assurety enter into into the Kingdom. It was God that was keeping him. It was God that had given him salvation. It was God that was performing the work of salvation in him. It was God that was keeping him to the day of Christ. It was God that would never leave him nor forsake him. Paul did not have to worry about anything.
His goal was to please Christ while on earth. The reference to being a castaway, was a reference to him keeping his body in shape so that he might keep on keeping on. Look carefully. It was a reference to the Olympic games, to the runner running race, to a boxer boxing. So Paul would also run and keep his body disciplined (both physically and mentally) that he would not be set on the shelf in this life. It speaks nothing of the life to come, nothing of the Kingdom, nothing of Heaven, only of this life. One application might be that if a man doesn't discipline his life in respect to food, he becomes gluttonous overweight, and is not able to do the things for Christ he was once able to do. "I keep my body and bring it into subjection. The Olympics were not held in heaven. The illustration was applicable for those running the race on earth.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by JohnBaskette:
The New Heaven & THE NEW EARTH,

Why would God create a new Earth? Is it for Satan to run around on? A Foolish Question to make you think.
The New Earth IS THE KINGDOM! KingdomBaptist.org - ARTICLES BY JOEY FAUST

Your timeline is wrong. God creates a new heaven and a new earth after the Millennial Kingdom, and after the Great White Throne judgement, when Satan and his demons, and all unbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
DHK

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by DHK:
Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Paul was confident (and I am also) that God would perform "that good work" (of completed sanctification and redemption) in him until the day of Jesus Christ. In other words he would never be lost. He would, with all assurety enter into into the Kingdom. It was God that was keeping him. It was God that had given him salvation. It was God that was performing the work of salvation in him. It was God that was keeping him to the day of Christ. It was God that would never leave him nor forsake him. Paul did not have to worry about anything.
His goal was to please Christ while on earth. The reference to being a castaway, was a reference to him keeping his body in shape so that he might keep on keeping on. Look carefully. It was a reference to the Olympic games, to the runner running race, to a boxer boxing. So Paul would also run and keep his body disciplined (both physically and mentally) that he would not be set on the shelf in this life. It speaks nothing of the life to come, nothing of the Kingdom, nothing of Heaven, only of this life. One application might be that if a man doesn't discipline his life in respect to food, he becomes gluttonous overweight, and is not able to do the things for Christ he was once able to do. "I keep my body and bring it into subjection. The Olympics were not held in heaven. The illustration was applicable for those running the race on earth.
DHK

You almost have it, DHK. Your right, brother, the race is on earth. The prize is not your eternal salvation, however. An incorruptible crown (reigning with Christ) is what Paul was talking about. Paul was not talking about staying physically fit (although, that is certainly a noble goal for someone who wants to serve Christ to their fullest while on this planet) but rather he is talking about keeping his flesh(body) under subjection to his spirit.

1 Timothy 4
7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

The race is real, however, and there is a prize to be won.

Hebrews 12
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Corinthians 9:24
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

Obtain what, Paul? I already have eternal salvation, it is a gift of God. Jesus Christ died to give me that gift. What does it mean to be a castaway?

Luke 9
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JohnBaskette:
The New Heaven & THE NEW EARTH,

Why would God create a new Earth? Is it for Satan to run around on? A Foolish Question to make you think.
The New Earth IS THE KINGDOM! KingdomBaptist.org - ARTICLES BY JOEY FAUST

Your timeline is wrong. God creates a new heaven and a new earth after the Millennial Kingdom, and after the Great White Throne judgement, when Satan and his demons, and all unbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]His timeline is the same as yours DHK. The point he was making was that Satan has muddied the timeline so people think that the New Heaven and Earth is the next big event. They have forgotten about the 1000 year Kingdom, which is the culmination of human history and the thing which the whole Bible looks forward to.

Our traditional emphasis has been on heaven. (Just look at Southern Gospel songs.) Whereas the Bible's primary focus is on the Kingdom. Seek Ye First the ?

Lacy

 

[DHK]

No one that is saved will be alive at the Second Coming of Christ.
He will come at the end of the Tribulation Period, for the nation of Israel, and his saints (us) will come with him. The resurrection will have already taken place. I will not be ashamed at his coming. I will be coming with him (Revelation 19).

The crowns that will be won will be rewarded at the Judgement seat of Christ, in Heaven, during the Tribulation Period. There will be no chastening period other than on earth. There is no Scripture to back up any other kind of chastening. All rewards are given at the judgement seat of Christ, where we are judged according to our works.
When we come with Christ, we will reign with Him. It does not say suffer with Him. What a twisting of the Scripture you have. It says we will reign with Him. How you get suffering out of that I will never know. All beleivers will have an opportunity to reign with him; some will have more responsibility than others according to their faithfulness on earth. There will be no punishment to the believers in the Millennial Kingdom. There is no Scripture to back that up.

Run that ye may obtain. Obtain what? the prize? Yes. The prize or crown that will be given out at the judgements seat of Christ which is far different than the judgement for unbelievers at the Lake of Fire where no believer will be found present.
DHK

 

[James_Newman]

Brother, you need to look at what your saying

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Our traditional emphasis has been on heaven. (Just look at Southern Gospel songs.) Whereas the Bible's primary focus is on the Kingdom. Seek Ye First the ?

Lacy

For most people our emphasis is on Heaven, and will be until the resurrection takes place. A mother of one of the member's of our church died last week. She was a saved individual. How do you think I was able to comfort that individual and her family. Not that she was waiting for the Kingdom, but that she was now in the presence of her Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Jesus said in John 14: "I go and prepare a place for you." She is in heaven now. The Kingdom is sometime in the future, yet to come.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by James Newman:
Brother, you need to look at what your saying

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

"All who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."
Perhaps the reason that most people don't suffer persecution is that they don't live Godly lives.
I know what I am saying. I have posted before about what it is "to love thy neighbor thyself," something most Christians in America," don't give two hoots about. They don't really care about the starving in Africa and Asia. They don't care about their spiritual need either. If they did, they would do something about it. Don't point me to your mission organizations please. I am talking to you people on a personal level. Love your[ neighbor as yourself. When a Muslim gets saved he is persecuted by his family to the point of death. He must go underground and remain in anonymity. His conversion is such an insult to his family that they themselves take the law into their own hands and do all that they can to kill him (in most Muslim countries). You don't suffer such persecution. Others do. Why then don't you go and be a missionary and help others convert to Christ in spite of the cost to their lives? Is it because there will be too much sacrifice to your own life? Is it you who will not suffer for Christ?
DHK

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DHK:
For most people our emphasis is on Heaven, and will be until the resurrection takes place. A mother of one of the member's of our church died last week. She was a saved individual. How do you think I was able to comfort that individual and her family. Not that she was waiting for the Kingdom, but that she was now in the presence of her Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Jesus said in John 14: "I go and prepare a place for you." She is in heaven now. The Kingdom is sometime in the future, yet to come.
DHK

I have no problem comforting a mourner with the fact that the departed was saved. Praise God! But the Bible's emphasis (at least as far as our walk and motivation is concerned) is on rewards, inheritance, crowns, and the Kingdom.

Heaven doesn't motivate anyone. we are not to seek heaven. We have received "heaven" (The new heaven and earth) as a free gift. It is not in doubt. I need no works added to my faith for "heaven". I need no more faith than the faith that Christ is my passover lamb to get "heaven". But can I? Will I fight and defeat the giants of sin? Now that I am saved what are my responsibilities as a son? What are the consequences for disregarding those responsibilities? I want to know what the Bible says. Not what some Greek "hades" tradition says. Not what some Roman Catholic "disembodied cherubs polishing harps on clouds" tradition says. And not what some Baptist "Everybody makes the kingdom, don't worry be happy, no fear of God" tradition says.

If Paul had nothing to worry about then why was he worried? If Paul was sure that he had everything (in the next life), then why did he say, "I count not myself to have apprehended?"


I have a question. If a Christian is a fornictor or a whoremonger and does not repent will he inherit the Kingdom? Yes or no?

Ephesians 5:3-20
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James Newman:
Brother, you need to look at what your saying

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

"All who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."
Perhaps the reason that most people don't suffer persecution is that they don't live Godly lives.
I know what I am saying. I have posted before about what it is "to love thy neighbor thyself," something most Christians in America," don't give two hoots about. They don't really care about the starving in Africa and Asia. They don't care about their spiritual need either. If they did, they would do something about it. Don't point me to your mission organizations please. I am talking to you people on a personal level. Love your[ neighbor as yourself. When a Muslim gets saved he is persecuted by his family to the point of death. He must go underground and remain in anonymity. His conversion is such an insult to his family that they themselves take the law into their own hands and do all that they can to kill him (in most Muslim countries). You don't suffer such persecution. Others do. Why then don't you go and be a missionary and help others convert to Christ in spite of the cost to their lives? Is it because there will be too much sacrifice to your own life? Is it you who will not suffer for Christ?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Now you are starting to agree with me? We are supposed to be doing exactly what you are talking about. I may not be able to go to another country right now, but I can certainly go out in the street and hand out tracts and preach the gospel. If I get reviled on the streets, Praise God! He says we must suffer persecutions if we will reign with Him. Why should any one who is not willing to give up their comfort in this life for Him expect that they will be crowned in glory? We are commanded to go out and win people to Christ! If we do not do this, we will still be rewarded, just not the reward that we thought we were going to get.

Proverbs 24
11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

God forbid that I should think I had attained anywhere near the degree of righteousness that the bible commands me to have. But we have to start where we are and press forward. Now is the time to get right with God, we don't know how much time we have left!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by James Newman:
Now you are starting to agree with me? We are supposed to be doing exactly what you are talking about. I may not be able to go to another country right now, but I can certainly go out in the street and hand out tracts and preach the gospel. If I get reviled on the streets, Praise God! He says we must suffer persecutions if we will reign with Him. Why should any one who is not willing to give up their comfort in this life for Him expect that they will be crowned in glory? We are commanded to go out and win people to Christ! If we do not do this, we will still be rewarded, just not the reward that we thought we were going to get.

I am glad to see your zeal come out in that post and not any personal offence. Yes, I agree, we are not to be ashamed of Christ to the point where we will not witness for him because we are embarrassed to do so, or want to avoid the discomfort of ridicule.

But in 1Cor.3:11-15, it speaks of wood, hay, and stubble. It speaks of a loss of reward. It speaks of being saved, yet so as by fire (the refiner's fire). Never does it refer to any concept of Millennial Exclusion. Our loss will be a loss of reward in heaven, not in the Kingdom.
DHK

 

[AVL1984]

I have to agree with you, DHK. I have not been in one Baptist church that teaches such a doctrine. I haven't been in one Baptist or Bible college that teaches such a doctrine. They have all taught the loss of rewards as you described.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by James Newman:
Phil. 1:21-23 is not any more a statement that dying = going to heaven than 2 cor. Paul may have been confident that he would be approved at the Lords coming, I cannot say that I am that confident. Wherefor, I have some labouring to do.

As for sheol, sometimes it may be the grave, sometimes it may be hell. Read your King James bible, it figured it all out for you. Do you believe that Jonah was alive in the whale for 3 days?
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

I think he went to hell. Even a 4 year old can tell you there are no mountains in a whale.

When studying scripture, the simplest explanation is best. You are adding your interpretation. "6. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains;" is a great descripture of the depths of the oceans. Sea weed in the belly of the fish wrapped around his head. He was thrown up on the sea shore. Did he miraculously jump from the fish to hell, back to the fish again and then get thrown up. Ridiculous.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Not ridiculous if he died. Which is very likely. You try to hold your breath in a mixture of saltwater, seaweed, and stomach acid for three days.

Lacy

 

[James_Newman]

Sea weed wrapping around his head would indicate to me that his head was underwater. Jonah died. Yes, He miraculously went to hell and then was risen again 3 days later. Sound familiar?

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JohnBaskette:
The New Heaven & THE NEW EARTH,

Why would God create a new Earth? Is it for Satan to run around on? A Foolish Question to make you think.
The New Earth IS THE KINGDOM! KingdomBaptist.org - ARTICLES BY JOEY FAUST

Your timeline is wrong. God creates a new heaven and a new earth after the Millennial Kingdom, and after the Great White Throne judgement, when Satan and his demons, and all unbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Correct me if I am wrong. I also take it that the new city (Jerusalem) will be the "capital" city of this new world where God will reign from. Right?

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James Newman:
Now you are starting to agree with me? We are supposed to be doing exactly what you are talking about. I may not be able to go to another country right now, but I can certainly go out in the street and hand out tracts and preach the gospel. If I get reviled on the streets, Praise God! He says we must suffer persecutions if we will reign with Him. Why should any one who is not willing to give up their comfort in this life for Him expect that they will be crowned in glory? We are commanded to go out and win people to Christ! If we do not do this, we will still be rewarded, just not the reward that we thought we were going to get.

I am glad to see your zeal come out in that post and not any personal offence. Yes, I agree, we are not to be ashamed of Christ to the point where we will not witness for him because we are embarrassed to do so, or want to avoid the discomfort of ridicule.

But in 1Cor.3:11-15, it speaks of wood, hay, and stubble. It speaks of a loss of reward. It speaks of being saved, yet so as by fire (the refiner's fire). Never does it refer to any concept of Millennial Exclusion. Our loss will be a loss of reward in heaven, not in the Kingdom.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Now I must ask the question, if losing crowns is all I have to fear at the judgment seat, why should I not just sit on my couch and await the judgment watching Fear Factor and eating Butterfingers? Thats what my flesh wants to do.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Not ridiculous if he died. Which is very likely. You try to hold your breath in a mixture of saltwater, seaweed, and stomach acid for three days.

Lacy

Where do you get scripture that he died? Also, why would God put him back inside the fish? (Bible says "fish" not whale, I believe.)

Is God incapable of keeping him alive for 3 days in the belly of a fish? Do not other scriptures refer to him being in the belly of a fish for three days?

It is appointed unto man once to die. . . So, he died twice? Too many holes in your little theory.

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by James Newman:
Sea weed wrapping around his head would indicate to me that his head was underwater. Jonah died. Yes, He miraculously went to hell and then was risen again 3 days later. Sound familiar?

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The problem is that there is no real indicator that Jonah died. Christ doesn't even remotely imply it, nor does the book of Jonah.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Phillip:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Not ridiculous if he died. Which is very likely. You try to hold your breath in a mixture of saltwater, seaweed, and stomach acid for three days.

Lacy

Where do you get scripture that he died? Also, why would God put him back inside the fish? (Bible says "fish" not whale, I believe.)

Is God incapable of keeping him alive for 3 days in the belly of a fish? Do not other scriptures refer to him being in the belly of a fish for three days?

It is appointed unto man once to die. . . So, he died twice? Too many holes in your little theory. </font>[/QUOTE]Didn't Lazarus die twice?