HELL IS NOT LAKE OF FIRE

[Phillip]

King James

Jonah Chapter 1
Verse 17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Sounds pretty clear to me. I would assume that if he truly went to hell that the Bible would be clear that his body stayed in the fish while his soul went to hell.


Chapter 2
1. THEN JONAH prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly.
2. And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and though heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about; all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul; the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brough up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.
7. When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8. They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9. But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.
10. And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out jonah upon the dry land.


This can be used as symbolization, but you go too far in assuming that Jonah went to hell. Otherwise, he had to be ressurected and placed back into the fish so he could be up-chucked on the beach. You description is such a hard stretch that it makes no sense whatsoever.

I will not say that it is not a good symbol of hell. But the seaweed would obviously be gastro-intestinal debris in the fish's belly. The fish would dive and take Jonah to the roots of the mountains. Some of this description may be before he was actually swallowed by the fish. But, obviously God heard Jonah's call OUT OF THE FISH'S BELLY!

What is not clear about this? And why can we not take the simplest meaning of the translation without adding our own theories?

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by James Newman:
It is appointed unto man once to die. . . So, he died twice? Too many holes in your little theory.

Didn't Lazarus die twice? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Good point, still no evidence.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Of course his Body stayed in the whale! Duh! Nobody says his body went to Hell.

Did he die?

He was in a whale (A type of fish - look it up in a dictionary), under the water (where whales live). Men need air more often that once every three days. Men cannot breath water, seaweed, and stomach acid for three days. He went to the belly of hell. (Where dead men go.)

It doesn't say that he died? No Evidence?

lacy

I'll admit that it doesn't say he saw a bright light at the end of a tunnel.

 

[Lacy Evans]

My pet peeve:

FISH, n. [L. piscis.]


1. An animal that lives in water. Fish is a general name for a class of animals subsisting in water, which were distributed by Linne into six orders. They breathe by means of gills, swim by the aid of fins, and are oviparous. Some of them have the skeleton bony, and others cartilaginous. Most of the former have the opening of the gills closed by a peculiar covering, called the gill-lid; many of the latter have no gill-lid, and are hence said to breathe through apertures. Cetaceous animals, as the whale and dolphin, are, in popular language, called fishes, and have been so classed by some naturalists; but they breathe by lungs, and are viviparous, like quadrupeds. The term fish has been also extended to other aquatic animals, such as shell-fish, lobsters, &c. We use fish, in the singular, for fishes in general or the whole race.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Of course his Body stayed in the whale! Duh! Nobody says his body went to Hell.

Did he die?

He was in a whale (A type of fish - look it up in a dictionary), under the water (where whales live). Men need air more often that once every three days. Men cannot breath water, seaweed, and stomach acid for three days. He went to the belly of hell. (Where dead men go.)

It doesn't say that he died? No Evidence?

lacy

I'll admit that it doesn't say he saw a bright light at the end of a tunnel.

Uh, 'scuse me Lacy, but a whale is a mammal, fish are not. A whale is also an air-breathing mammal. Fish use gills. If a dictionary says a whale is a fish, it is because it is used incorrectly. The Bible says Jonah was swallowed by a FISH.

 

[Phillip]

Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language.

Whale -- any of the larger marine mammals of the order Cetacea esp. as distinguished from the smaller dolphins and porpoises, having a fishlike body, forelimbs modified into flippers and a head that is horizontally flattened.
2. SLANG, something extraordinarily big, great, or fine of its kind "a whale of a lot of money".

Fish -- any of various cold-blooded, completely aquatic vertebrates, having gills, commonly fins, and typically an elongated body usually covered with scales.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
My pet peeve:

If you want to accept "slang", then that is your opinion, but it will only help impeach you when making an argument on any subject.

Why do you think a lawyer uses these methods to impeach a witness? It makes the jury think that if the witness is wrong in one area, he/she may be unreliable in any area.

 

[JohnBaskette]

Dear Dave & Squire;
I was where you are now in that thinking.
* How dare you say/think that I'd saysomething as FOOLISH as lessening the REALITY OF HELL!

A wise man once said Preaching The Kingdom is like taking candy away from a baby". I'm not sure after talking W/ya'll b/c A BABY CAN'T YELL, 'CULT, HERESY, OR HURL INSULTS LIKE YA'LL.
If nothing else, I hope this comes to mind when you read the Bible.
Notice, I DIDN'T SAY WHILE SINGING SONGS OR READING A CHRISTIAN BOOK B/C UNLESS THEY QUOTE THE KJV IT'S NOT INSPIRED!

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by JohnBaskette:
if someone can show me in scripture were I’m wrong, YES THEN IT WOULD BE A CULT.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. - Romans 8:1

Paul was convinced (by the Holy Spirit) that "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2 Cor 5:8 NIV)

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day (Judgment Day)--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (2 Tim 4:8 NIV)

Are you saying that the Lord awards me a crown (of righteousness) on judgment day and then ships me off to burn a little in hell? CULT WARNING!!!!!

‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 3:10

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 1 Thes 4:13-14
And especially these:

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

for He Himself has said, “I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you,” Heb 13:5b

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. (Eph 1:7-8)

These verses tell me that I HAVE BEEN redeemed; that Jesus will never leave me nor forsake me and that I will always be with the Lord as I am right now (Do you suggest Jesus tags along on my little sojourn to hell?); I am with Jesus until He brings me with Him; when I depart this body I am "with the Lord;" and there is no condemnation for me because I AM IN CHRIST!

Ball's in your court . . . your serve!

 

[James_Newman]

Your bible is missing words, brother.

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I don't have to do this, but I will show from other scriptures that verse 1 is true in its entirety.

1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

If you are not keeping His commandments (walking after the Spirit), you are not in him.

 

[John Wells]

I will not argue with what you've added. It further supports my premise. Here's another proof text that believers do not do "a little time in hell."

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. Romans 5:8-9

This tells me that I HAVE BEEN justified. It would not be the God of the Bible who punished a "justified" person.

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. - Romans 5:10

The whole idea of believers being punished a little in hell denigrates: justification, redemption, reconciliation, grace, forgiveness, etc, etc.

 

[James_Newman]

How is being saved from an eternity in the lake of fire not good enough for your definition of justification, redemption, reconciliation, grace, forgiveness, etc? Do you think God owes you the kingdom too? I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that maybe you havent read all 12 pages of this thread, either.

 

[JohnBaskette]

David. I got a verse for you. The context can be seen in the beginning of chapter 10, HIS DICIPLES "THE TWELVE" are named if you'll read:
"Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Now don't get emotional, reason w/me, Where the disciples Christians? OK, then why did our lord warn them about hell?
Jesus is not talking to the multitude here, It's meant for His disciples; remember They were on a hill.
"Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Now don't get emotional, reason w/me, Where the disciples Christians? OK, then why did our lord warn them about hell?
Jesus is not talking to the multitude here, It's meant for His disciples; remember They were on a hill.
ALSO Mt. 10:22 (out of sequence but in the same context)

“Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.”

CONTEXT IS VERY IMPORTANT B/C according to John 3:16 we are save in Absolute eternity by belief alone,“…endureth to the end shall be saved.” Then why does it seem in Mt 10:22&28 that Jesus is taking back His promise?
I pray God’ll forgive for typing such folly as that last question, IN MAKING THE FOLLOWING POINT: John 3:16 refers to Eternal Life-ESCAPING THE LOF & Mt 10:22&28 REFER TO KINGDOM SALVATION.

In Christ; John

 

[JohnBaskette]

Dear DHK,
You asked, "WHY IS IT SO HARD TO BELIEVE HELL IS NOT ETERNAL"
I ask, ask how could anybody intheir right mind think it is? HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU COME ACROSS VERSES THAT SEEM TO CONTRIDICT?
LIKE here in Mathew Jesus seems to take back the promise of eternal security. GOD CANNOT LIE! So, if hell is eternal Jesus IS TAKING BACK A PROMISE NOTICE I SAID, 'IF' Read Mathew 10 keeping in mind who Jesus is talking to...
Now don't get emotional, reason w/me, Where the disciples Christians? OK, then why did our lord warn them about hell?
Jesus is not talking to the multitude here, It's meant for His disciples; remember They were on a hill.
ALSO Mt. 10:22 (out of sequence but in the same context)

“Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.”

CONTEXT IS VERY IMPORTANT B/C according to John 3:16 we are save in Absolute eternity by belief alone,“…endureth to the end shall be saved.” Then why does it seem in Mt 10:22&28 that Jesus is taking back His promise?
I pray God’ll forgive for typing such folly as that last question, IN MAKING THE FOLLOWING POINT: John 3:16 refers to Eternal Life-ESCAPING THE LOF.& Mt 10:22&28 REFER TO KINGDOM SALVATION.

In Christ; John

 

[JohnBaskette]

"Rightly divide & study to show thyself approved ..." when things don't seem right...

 

[John Wells]

John,

It seems to me you are reading a lot into Matt 10:28. Jesus is teaching the disciples that God has power to cast both body and soul into hell. He is not hurling a threat at them! Speaking of context, three verses later:

“So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows. “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:31-33

Your premise that believers still have some sins to be paid for denies the all sufficient atonement of Jesus Christ; makes him out to be a liar when He said "It is finished;" and makes Him a failure in His mission to pay for the sins of the world, past, present and future. Now you have an imperfect savior who isn't worth a hoot! I'm sorry to be so blunt and harsh, but saying there are still sins to be paid for by believers rips the very heart out of the gospel and God's grace!

“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. Matthew 10:22

This has nothing to do with sins committed subsequent to salvation (which are the ones I assume must be atoned for by believers in hell vs. what the Bible teaches that Jesus paid for them all). It also does not suggest that our perseverance secures our salvation. Scripture everywhere teaches precisely the opposite: God, as part of His saving work, secures our perseverance. True believers are “are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation” 1 Pet. 1:5

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by JohnBaskette:
"Rightly divide & study to show thyself approved ..." when things don't seem right...

Get off your pious wagon John! It won't work with me!

 

[JohnBaskette]

THE CULT

Originally posted by DavidFWhite3:
I hope that a bunch of people so concerned about the reality of Hell will start discussing what Jesus was actually talking about every time he brought it up. We then might find ourselves getting concerned about the way we live.

You aren't going to be able to quote scripture and doctrine on judgement day when Jesus simply says to many of you reading this post:"I was hungry and you fed me not, thirsty and you gave me no drink, naked and you did not clothe me, a stranger and you did not take me in, sick and you did not care for me and in prison and you did not visit me."

Your mathematical formulas for assuring yourselves that you are saved are hogwash. You know you're saved when your heart is filled with the love of God for suffering human beings. I'm convinced a lot of you don't care if someone starves to death as long as they go to heaven. It could be that they will, and then you'll go to hell for not feeding them.
Dave

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by James Newman:
How is being saved from an eternity in the lake of fire not good enough for your definition of justification, redemption, reconciliation, grace, forgiveness, etc? Do you think God owes you the kingdom too? I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that maybe you havent read all 12 pages of this thread, either.

I've read enough of the thread and enough of God's Word to know that Christ's atonement is all sufficient and there are no more true believer's sins to be atoned for. If you believe different, then you do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ!

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by JohnBaskette:
THE CULT
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DavidFWhite3:
I hope that a bunch of people so concerned about the reality of Hell will start discussing what Jesus was actually talking about every time he brought it up. We then might find ourselves getting concerned about the way we live.

You aren't going to be able to quote scripture and doctrine on judgement day when Jesus simply says to many of you reading this post:"I was hungry and you fed me not, thirsty and you gave me no drink, naked and you did not clothe me, a stranger and you did not take me in, sick and you did not care for me and in prison and you did not visit me."

Your mathematical formulas for assuring yourselves that you are saved are hogwash. You know you're saved when your heart is filled with the love of God for suffering human beings. I'm convinced a lot of you don't care if someone starves to death as long as they go to heaven. It could be that they will, and then you'll go to hell for not feeding them.
Dave

</font>[/QUOTE]That's good advice, John, but let's stay on topic! Are there unatoned for sins of believers, as you propose? I am asking for further scriptural proof. The Matt 10:22,28 ones with your irrelevant comments are far from convincing!

Please also comment on your implied "insufficiency of Christ's atonement!"