HELL IS NOT LAKE OF FIRE

[John Wells]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
John said,"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1"

Many new versions (if not all) like to leave off the ending of this verse. Let's leave that alone shall we?

Let's skip on down to Romans 8:4 and see what we have here...

Glory be! look at this..."who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit".
Why the conditional tag-on?
Look at another one.
"Lest I myself should be a castaway"
Why would Paul include this tag-on?
And this..."...of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."
Now why would he include this?
If he were NOT talking to believers and about believers?
Be not deceived, God is not mocked. For whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Now why would Paul include this warning?
Over and over again Paul admonishes believers to live a HOLY life. Yet by your theology, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why we should. "Don't worry, it's all in the bag. Jesus got 'cha covered bro. Live like you want. There's no condemnation at all for you now. Just be happy and free bro!"
That my friend...is the "H" word.
Nowhere will you find that God winks at ungodly living for the believer. Jesus did pay for my sins. But as Paul so rightly exhorts us, it is not a license.
In fact, Paul does the opposite. He tells us that for one to trample the Blood under foot; it is a most heinous thing. This is in truth what your doctrine leads to.
Ye think not?
Then explain why western Christianity is in such a mess today.
In His service;
Jim

(edited for spelling errors)

Sorry but I will not be distracted from the point I'm trying to make . . . that there will be no believers in hell, not even for a little bit.

Your response is too common. Assurance of salvation does not constitute license to sin. Those who's hearts are right with God have a strong desire/drive to please Him. But "all our deeds are filthy rags" to God, so it is only when we act in His power that our deeds are counted as righteous acts, worthy of giving Him glory. Now . . . back to believers going to hell! Can't believe I'm even having to argue this on a Baptist Board!

 

[John Wells]

You all are all over the map, not quoting in context regarding what is stated of believers but for non-believers, etc. etc.

James, if you don't view consequences for sins and punishment for sins after death as distinctly different, then the chasm between our biblical understanding is, I'm afraid, too great to bridge.

Chasening does occur in our lifetime. It is used to teach us not to sin, draw us to and keep us dependent on God.

[ October 27, 2004, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

[James_Newman]

John, teach who not to sin? Why teach anyone not to sin? I don't know if our understanding can be bridged John. I understand the bible to be written to believers. You like to take all the good stuff for yourself and apply all the warnings to 'false Christians' and Jews in the tribulation. If God can chasten His children in this life, there is not one scrap of scripture to say He can't do it in the next. There is overwhelming evidence that He not only can, but He will do it, and He will not take your objections into account when He does.
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You say this is talking about a 'false professer?' Then show me how you tell the difference. I see a disobedient Christian. How do I know it is a disobedient Christian? First clue should be he is standing in judgment with OBEDIENT Christians. Where in scripture does an unsaved man stand in line with 'True Believers'(tm) to be crowned and gain entrance into the kingdom?

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
John said,"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1"

Many new versions (if not all) like to leave off the ending of this verse. Let's leave that alone shall we?

NO! Actually, the KJV which I love, often includes text (such as this one) that earlier manuscripts uncovered in more recent times reveal to have been marginal notes that were incorporated into the text in later manuscripts. So the lack of the "ending" as you call it, renders a more accurate representation of the original.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by David M Walker:
Ps 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. [/QB]

Funny, that's what I would say to you.

 

[Marcia]

This looks like a 20 pager.

I've read all 14 pages but by now, have forgotten who said this earlier:

Now I must ask the question, if losing crowns is all I have to fear at the judgment seat, why should I not just sit on my couch and await the judgment watching Fear Factor and eating Butterfingers? Thats what my flesh wants to do.

The reason we don't just sit watching TV and eating candy is that we have the HS who convicts us to live for Christ. We can ignore that but it's painful to do so though some choose that.

Posted by John Newman
1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

If you are not keeping His commandments (walking after the Spirit), you are not in him.

1 John 2 is talking about someone who is not a believer; someone who continues in the habit of sin and does not repent. No believer keeps the commandments or walks perfectly with the Lord; we all sin but the HS convicts us to repent. If one does not feel conviction, does not repent and continues to live as though they are not a believer, then the evidence is they are not a believer.

So if constant obedience is mandatory for the Kingdom, then no one will get in!

 

[John Wells]

Here are strong points I’ve made in my argument that there is no “hell” for believers, to which I have received no response. I will not answer any other’s questions until mine are answered (or at least attempted).

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day (Judgment Day)--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (2 Tim 4:8 NIV)

1) Are you saying that the Lord awards me a crown of righteousness on judgment day and then ships me off to burn a little in hell?

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. Romans 5:8-9

2) This tells me that I HAVE BEEN justified. It would not be the God of the Bible who punished a "justified" person. Do those who believe in a hell for believers understand the implication “having been justified” has on our sin condition in God’s eyes?

3) Are there unatoned for sins of believers, as you propose (only reason why a believer would be required to “do a little time” in hell)? I am asking for scriptural proof.

For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him. As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. Psalm 103:11-12

4) Please explain why, if God has removed our transgressions from us, that we must pay for them in hell? I.e., How can God “remember our sins no more,” and then remember our sins some more?

5) How can we (as the scriptures clearly state) be declared/viewed as righteous by God and then punished after death?

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” Romans 4:7-8

6) Please reconcile the above passage with your beliefs. (this is a new one)

 

[DeafPosttrib]

All of you seem not accept the clear teaching of Matt. 25:30 tells us, a lazy servant shall cast into outer darkeness is everlasting punishment. Matt. 25:30 does not saying how long the lazy servant will be finally being leased out of the outer darkness. Obivously, 'outer darkness' is same meaning as eternality punishment comparing with lake of fire.

There is no evidence find anywhere in the Bible saying, a Christian shall suffering in hell for a temporary. This teaching sounds like purgatory to me. Sorry to saying it.

Also, Lacy, you showed us of Matt. 7:21-23 that a Christian shall cast into outer darkness for a temporary. The context of Matt. 7:21-23 does not saying it shall be a temporary. That context talks about the judgment day, many people shall saying to Christ, that they doing good works and serve Him. Many religions include baptists do serve the Lord, I am aware of. But, the Lord shall saying to them, "I never knew you: DEPART from me, ye that work iniquity."

The reason, many shall be cast into everlasting fire, because of their wicked, and without having repentance. Word, 'iniquity' means wicked.

Many religions include baptists do serve the Lord, but many of them are hyprocrite, because of hold their sins without repentance, that is the reason why they are cast into the everlasting fire.

Matt 7:23 is refer to Matt 25:41 says: "The shall he say also unto them on the left hand, DEPART from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Obivously, Christ speak of eternality punishment, NOT a temporary punishment.

Also, you mentioned of Gal. 5:19-21. That passage is not discuss about person shall be being excluded from millennial kingdom. That passage talking about names of sins, what people commited, shall not have eternal life, they shall go into lake of fire. Also, that passage is same with Rev. 21:8 tells us, there are names of sins, the people commited, shall be cast into the lake of fire.

Faust & Gary T. Whipple both believe a Christian shall taste 'second death' of Rev. 2:11 will be a temporary time. Also, they believe Christians shall be cast into hell for a temporary.

But, 'second death' is obivously speak of everlasting punishment find in Revelation 20:14: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS is the second death."

Obivous, Rev. 20:14 tells us, 'second death' is NOT a temporary. Second death is an eternality punishment.

Rev. 2:11 tells us, if any person failed to overcome or endure at person's death, SHALL suffering(hurt) of second death, that means, if any person failed to overcome, or endure, will suffering in the lake of fire.

Rev. 2:11 is a clear verse tells us of conditional warning.

Also, there is no evidence find anywhere in the Bible saying, 'kingdom of God/heaven' is so called, "Millennial kingdom". That is men's opinion.

I understand of that word speak of eternality kingdom, also, speak of God's thing.

John 3:3, 7 tell us, we must be born again, or we cannot have eternal life. That is talk about salvation, not talking about millennial kingdom.

You do need a solid evidence verse in the Bible prove us, that a verse saying a Christian shall suffering in the hell for a temporary. I am asking you for a solid evidence verse where in the Bible to support your theory, please.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[JohnBaskette]

Revelation 20:13-15 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
As we know (or should) CHRISTIANS DIE IN THEIR
EARTHLY BODIES IF JESUS DOESN'T COME BEFORE THEN... Read the above Re 20:13-15.W/That fact in mind & Just see if it makes Words NOT CONTADICT. ESPECIALLY REV. CHAPTER 20!
By not CONTRADICTING, Imean in our own minds!
In Christ, Who, BTW: I can do nothing without! John

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
John,

Of course, I know, that you DO NOT believe in purgatory. That teaching is from Roman Catholic. That is correct.

Stop and think....

John Calvin developed doctrine on the perservance of the saints(same as security salvation). In fact, Calvin borrowed doctrines from St. Augustine's teaching. St. Augustine developed new doctrine on purgatory. That why Roman Catholic teaching on purgatory for many centuries to today. The reason, Catholic seems believe in the perservance of the saints. Of course, they believe salvation must base on good works. But, they do teaching on purgatory, that we have to pay saint's debt to get a saint out of the purgatory.

Joey Faust does not believe in purgatory. Yet, he teaches, a Christian shall suffer the second death for a temporary, also a Christian shall be suffering in the outer darkness for a temporary. No question, his teaching sounds like purgatory to me. He refuses to admit it. His teaching is guesswork and logicals. I do not accept his teaching, also Gary T. Whipple too. Their teaching is unbiblical. I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.

In fact, Joey Faust & Gary Whipple both KNOW, a Christian will cast into the outer darkeness, also, they know there are many verses teaching on conditional warnings. Yet, they still teaching security salvation. Their teaching do not make a sense to me. Because both teaching that a lazy Christian will suffer in the hell/outer darkness/second death is a temporary. Obivously, their teaching can easily notice it is purgatory.

They need a true proof or evidence verse in in the Bible telling us, a Christian shall be finally being released from the hell/outer darkness/second death.

I need a proof where a verse find in the Bible saying according to their teaching, please.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Thanks for asking for scripture. See Rev. 20:13-15

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by John Wells:
Here are strong points I’ve made in my argument that there is no “hell” for believers, to which I have received no response. I will not answer any other’s questions until mine are answered (or at least attempted).

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day (Judgment Day)--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (2 Tim 4:8 NIV)

1) Are you saying that the Lord awards me a crown of righteousness on judgment day and then ships me off to burn a little in hell?

This, as all your other arguments, assumes that all 'true believers' will automatically fulfill all the conditions to obtain these clearly conditional promises. You deny that there is such a thing as a carnal Christian. This is a rediculous argument. If you base it on scripture, I would like to see it. If you are trusting in your works as evidence of your salvation, rather than the word of God which plainly tells you that Christ died to pay the price for your sins, then I must question whether or not YOU truly have 'saving faith.' But we will assume that you are a Christian for now.

2 Timothy 4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Taken in context, your promise of a crown is also a warning that we are going to stand before the Lord and be judged (verse 1.) Paul says that there is a crown laid up for him, because he has fought a good fight, has finished his course, has kept the faith, and is ready to be offered. I take it that you must be living as holy as paul was, if you can make these same statements. Saying that you love the Lord's coming isn't going to win you a crown, Jesus is going to be the judge of whether or not you love His coming.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[JohnBaskette]

DHK, said; "I will not stand before God in the Great White Throne Judgement. That judgement is for unbelievers only. It is for the resurrection of the Unjust and the occupants of Hell. My name is forever written in the Book of Life".
PRAISE GOD! DHK. The scripture you I are standing on IS BELIEVING what Jesus has done for us as a FREE GIFT.

 

[JohnBaskette]

The free gift of eternal life IS NOT UNDER SCRUTINY. ONLY BY THIS TRUST/BELIEF^ ARE WE NOW CHILDREN OF GOD & WILL NOT BE BEFORE THE GWT JUDGEMENT!

NOTICE WE ARE GOD'S CHILDREN. Since God loves us, as a GOOD FATHER WHO LOVES HIS CHILDREN WE'LL GIVE ACCOUNT @ THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. THE GWT & CHRIST'S JUDGEMENT SEAT ARE DIFFERENT JUDGEMENTS!
REASON W/ME, WHY ARE DIFFERENT WORDS USED? COULD IT BE THERE ARE DIFFENT MEANINGS? There is a reason that God, The Holy Spirit, Inspired The holy men of old to use different words!

Think about it for your own sake. In Christ, John

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by James Newman:
then I must question whether or not YOU truly have 'saving faith.'

You question my faith because I do not agree to your cultic interpretations, that by any stretch of the imagination is way off base of mainstream protestant theology? Since you danced around only one of my questions without answering it, I am through "casting pearls to swine" for it's a waste of time. You, John, Lacy et al have clearly demonstrated you are not interested in TRUTH which has slapped you in the face! You build your false teachings on a bunch of warnings to non-specified groups (saved vs. unsaved). You cannot produce (because it doesn't exist) scripture which clearly states that believers must pass through hell on the way to heaven.

I'll tell you what, your flight to heaven may include a layover in hell, but I am guaranteed by my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, through the scriptures, a direct flight!

 

[Lacy Evans]

I'll tell you what, your flight to heaven may include a layover in hell, but I am guaranteed by my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, through the scriptures, a direct flight!

Cute but irrelevant.

Lacy

 

[James_Newman]

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. Romans 5:8-9

2) This tells me that I HAVE BEEN justified. It would not be the God of the Bible who punished a "justified" person. Do those who believe in a hell for believers understand the implication “having been justified” has on our sin condition in God’s eyes?

Yes. Do you?

3) Are there unatoned for sins of believers, as you propose (only reason why a believer would be required to “do a little time” in hell)? I am asking for scriptural proof.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

What Christ did on the cross paid for all your sins. What was the penalty for sin? Eternal damnation in the lake of fire! You will never experience this punishment. Now, you belong to the man who 'redeemed' you. You are His servant, bought with a price. You do not think He will require obedience from His servant? This is talking to you, sanctified by the blood of the covenant. If you sin willfully, you are stepping on Jesus, and counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. You will be judged for it. You will not, however, pay the price that you deserve to pay for it, which is eternal damnation in the lake of fire.

It says that under Moses' law, offenders died without mercy. Under the new covenant, it seems there is sorer punishment than physical death! What would that refer to, if we can only be chastened in this life?

 

[Lacy Evans]

I'm trusting that you will prayerfully examine the scripture references. It would take up too much space to copy them all in.

Originally posted by John Wells:

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day (Judgment Day)--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (2 Tim 4:8 NIV)

We like the promise, We leave off the condition. Do all Christians love his appearing? In the previous two verses an aging Paul explains his confidence. In verse 6 he says, I am now ready to be offered. Why now, when earlier in his life he was less sure (Phil, 3, I Co. 9?) Because he had "fought the good fight". he had lived an obedient life. He had suffered. He had "longed for" the Lord's appearing.
You cannot divorce a promise of its conditions.

1) Are you saying that the Lord awards me a crown of righteousness on judgment day and then ships me off to burn a little in hell?

No I'm saying if you lose your crown,(Rev 3:11, I Co. 9:25, James 1:12, Rev 2:10)you will not rule. A crown is more than a metal ring. To lose the metal ring is to lose the authority to rule in the Kingdom.


(Continued)

 

[Lacy Evans]

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. Romans 5:8-9

2) This tells me that I HAVE BEEN justified. It would not be the God of the Bible who punished a "justified" person. Do those who believe in a hell for believers understand the implication “having been justified” has on our sin condition in God’s eyes?

God punishes all of his "justified" people to some degree. (Heb 12:6) I never knew a kid who never once needed a spanking. It is because we are justified that he chastens us. We are his kids now, and subject to his family rules.

Your problem is with the severity of the spanking.(Heb 10:29)


(Continued}

 

[Lacy Evans]

3) Are there unatoned for sins of believers, as you propose (only reason why a believer would be required to “do a little time” in hell)? I am asking for scriptural proof.

For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him. As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. Psalm 103:11-12

Psalms? OK. Ps 6:1 -
O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

Not a little time. 1000 years. No more no less. (Matt 5:26, Rev 20:5).

(Continued)

 

[Lacy Evans]

4) Please explain why, if God has removed our transgressions from us, that we must pay for them in hell? I.e., How can God “remember our sins no more,” and then remember our sins some more?

What would happen to you if you started fornicating, railing, stealing and lying right now and did not repent? Would you lose your salvation? Would it prove you never were saved? Or would you be chastened by your Heavenly Father? Why would he chasten you? Because he "remembered" your sin. Divide Divide Divide.


(Continued)

 

[Lacy Evans]

5) How can we (as the scriptures clearly state) be declared/viewed as righteous by God and then punished after death?

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” Romans 4:7-8

There is obviously a division that must be made with the word "righteous". (Job 1:1, 40:4) Sometimes it is absolute, as with our standing in Christ in eternity. Sometimes it is a practical righteousness which we as Christians must attain to. (Phil 3:13-16 shows both concepts plainly)


(Continued)