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HELL IS NOT LAKE OF FIRE

JohnBaskette

New Member
WELCOME TO DAVID'S CULT!
David said, "You know you're saved when your heart is filled with the love of God for suffering human beings."
NOW THAT'S ERROR! That would be adding to what is required BELIEF IN CHRIST's DEATH AS PAYMENT FOR OUR SINS ALONE is the Plan God gives... salvation!
Anot one time is Salvation from THE LAKE OF FIRE based on how we feel.
 

John Wells

New Member
I await your response to my points/questions, John! :rolleyes:

JohnBaskette: adding to what is required BELIEF IN CHRIST's DEATH AS PAYMENT FOR OUR SINS ALONE is the Plan God gives... salvation!

That's exactly what you're doing, John, adding to the requirement . . . still some sins for believers to pay for?
laugh.gif
 

JohnBaskette

New Member
Also, let me say, Caring for people is a good work. Don't get me wrong. Caring that people, Christians will burn for 1,000 years WILL HAVE AN ETERNAL REWARD ie; KINGDOM ENTRANCE, I HOPE
That's the reason for my posts, & why I go SoulWinning when I can.

In Christ; John
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Originally posted by John Wells:
I've read enough of the thread and enough of God's Word to know that Christ's atonement is all sufficient and there are no more true believer's sins to be atoned for. If you believe different, then you do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ!
Apparantly you haven't read enough of the thread to understand that the atonement is not in question here at all. A Million years in Hell could never atone for any sin I commit before or after salvation. Only Christ's blood can atone.

What we are talking about is obedience and chastening. Just because God chastens us (in this life or at the JSOC) doesn't mean we ever need more atoning. In fact the word says plainly, "There remaineth no more sacrifice for sin". We don't need atonement if we are already saved! We already have it and it is irrevocable!

But if God tells us (once saved always saved believers)to be then we better be good or else! If he tells us to cut off something that makes us sin, we better get to cutting. Why? You read it yourself. If he tells us don't fornicate because you won't inherit the kingdom, will he say, "Not really. Just kidding", if we go ahead and fornicate?


I can't understand why chastening after death at the JSOC is so hard to understand when it is so plainly revealed in scripture. I can't see how it would constitute "separation" from God any more than chastening in this life. If your real problem is the emotional issue of the often misunderstood term, "hell", then let's say "the underworld" or "hades". (In the king James a whale is a fish and Hell is Hell, but we'll use whatever version.)

I think that a real and emminent threat of severe chastening is more scary than a milktoast threat of loosing salvation (If I'm really bad for a really long time.) and more scary than an attitude of "If I'm really bad for a really long time it means I'm must not really saved."

Lacy
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by JohnBaskette:
Dear DHK,
You asked, "WHY IS IT SO HARD TO BELIEVE HELL IS NOT ETERNAL"
I ask, ask how could anybody intheir right mind think it is? HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU COME ACROSS VERSES THAT SEEM TO CONTRIDICT?
You seemed to agree with me at one point. A life sentence is still a life sentence even if the prisoner is transfered from one cell to another. The sentence doesn't change. The sentence of eternal damnation for the unbeliever doesn't change.
So likewise about the place. Can you tell the difference if I pour a glass of water into a bucket of water? Which part of the water in the bucket belongs to the glass, and which does not?
If I throw a burning match into my fireplace (already burning), which flame is which? Does not both the match and the rest of the wood become consumed. The difference between that and the fires of either Hell and the Lake of Fire is that these fires will never be consumed; they will burn for all eternity. They will not be quenched. Though Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire, it does not mean that its flames are quenched, it just becomes part and parcel of the greater Lake of Fire. God is just adding to the fuel.

Matthew 18:8-9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
--sounds like Hell is eternal to me.

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

--sounds like an eternal Hell to me.

LIKE here in Mathew Jesus seems to take back the promise of eternal security. GOD CANNOT LIE! So, if hell is eternal Jesus IS TAKING BACK A PROMISE NOTICE I SAID, 'IF' Read Mathew 10 keeping in mind who Jesus is talking to...
Now don't get emotional, reason w/me, Where the disciples Christians? OK, then why did our lord warn them about hell?
Jesus is not talking to the multitude here, It's meant for His disciples; remember They were on a hill.
ALSO Mt. 10:22 (out of sequence but in the same context)

“Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.”

CONTEXT IS VERY IMPORTANT B/C according to John 3:16 we are save in Absolute eternity by belief alone,“…endureth to the end shall be saved.” Then why does it seem in Mt 10:22&28 that Jesus is taking back His promise?
I pray God’ll forgive for typing such folly as that last question, IN MAKING THE FOLLOWING POINT: John 3:16 refers to Eternal Life-ESCAPING THE LOF.& Mt 10:22&28 REFER TO KINGDOM SALVATION.

In Christ; John
Matthew 10:22-23 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Context is everything. "He that endures to the end." Who was Jesus speaking to? He was speaking to his disciples--Jews? Where were they? In Israel.
Does verse 23 apply to you and I?
Muat I go over all the cities of Israel before Jesus comes? Why the cities of Israel. Is it Israel that applies to me? I don't think so.
DHK
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Originally posted by DHK:
Context is everything. "He that endures to the end." Who was Jesus speaking to? He was speaking to his disciples--Jews? Where were they? In Israel.
Does verse 23 apply to you and I?
Muat I go over all the cities of Israel before Jesus comes? Why the cities of Israel. Is it Israel that applies to me? I don't think so.
DHK
So do the Jews in the trib (or somewhere else)get saved by "enduring unto the end" or "cutting off their hand"? How can anyone get saved by works? They have to believe in the finished work and atoning blood of Christ just like we do. There is no other means of salvation in any dispensation. (Especially a dispensation that comes after the fullness of Christ has been revealed to mankind.)

Come on. He was speaking to saved disciples.

You apply that to anyone but Christians and you have salvation by works. If the poor Jews in the trib have to do good works to get saved, then they are all surely doomed.

lacy

PS Wasn't John 3:16 directed toward a Jew too?
 

John Wells

New Member
Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
I can't understand why chastening after death at the JSOC is so hard to understand when it is so plainly revealed in scripture. I can't see how it would constitute "separation" from God any more than chastening in this life. If your real problem is the emotional issue of the often misunderstood term, "hell", then let's say "the underworld" or "hades". (In the king James a whale is a fish and Hell is Hell, but we'll use whatever version.)
Lacy
Well, for one . . . our sins have already been forgiven:

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace. Ephesians 1:7

For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God. 1 Corinthians 4:4-5

That's the atmosphere of the JSOC, Lacy, an awards ceremony! It's the Great White Throne judgment where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth. Let me ask you . . . if you do something really bad to someone and after working things out, that person says they forgive you . . . if they bring it up again do you really feel the words of forgiveness were real. God says "I will remember your sins no more!" And I believe Him!

For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him. As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. Psalm 103:11-12

Using the word "chasening" instead of "punishment" doesn't disguise anything, Lacy! Punishment implies "payment" and Jesus paid it all! I cannot and will not accept this "Kingdom Truth" cult teaching. Any more "payment" for sins by true believers means Jesus didn't complete the task the Father sent Him to accomplish, pure and simple.
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Chastening, punishment, payment, whatever. It is all the same. It has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation doesn't keep our father from chastening (punishing) us. Do you believe that punishment, payment, chastening, in this life somehow "atones" us of our sin? If the blood paid for all our sins then why are we subject to chastening as children? Any more "payment" for sins by true believers means Jesus didn't complete the task the Father sent Him to accomplish, pure and simple.

Obviously there is an absolute/eternal "forgiveness" of sin that we obtain when we are saved. But scripture clearly reveals a relative "forgiveness" that a saved individual must seek for disobedience to the family rules. one has to do with position, the latter has to do with fellowship.

KJV 1 John 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

KJV Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Lacy
 

John Wells

New Member
JohnBaskette: That is The last day when all who have accepted Christ including the unworthy Christians who’ll be in hell during The Kingdom Age. You see if hell were eternal than I’d be IN A CULT!
The fallacy of your belief is that Jesus implied there are "unworthy" Christians, which is nonsense. Jesus warned the disciples of unworthy people, but He never referred to a believer as unworthy. Oh! We all are unworthy to be sure. But all Christians (true believers) become completely worthy by the grace of God through His imputed righteousness. I think a little word study (in context of course) would be a benefit to you. I’ll start with:

Propitiation: The Greek word hilasmos means "to render favorable, to satisfy, to appease." For the Christian the propitiation was the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. It turned away the wrath of God so that He could pass "over the sins previously committed" (Rom. 3:25). It was the Father who sent the Son to be the propitiation (1 John 4:10) for all (1 John 2:2).
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood" (Rom. 3:25).

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ" (Eph. 2:13).

The results of propitiation.
a. God is justified in forgiving sin.
b. God is justified in bestowing righteousness.

Remission: This concept is practically synonymous with the word forgiveness. It refers to a sending back, a putting away. Of the fifteen key words in the vocabulary of salvation, remission alone has to do with subtraction, whereas all other terms speak of glorious addition.

Redemption: To pay a ransom price for something or someone. To remove from a slave marketplace. To effect a full release. We were redeemed from the power of sin and the curse of the Law (Gal. 3:13) through Jesus (Rom. 3:24; Col. 1:14). We were bought with a price (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23).

Imputation: To impute is the act of one person adding something good or bad to the account of another person. Imputation is the means of our salvation. Our sins were put upon, imputed, to Jesus on the cross. Our sins were "given" to Jesus. When He died on the cross, our sins, in a sense, died with Him. The righteousness that was His through His perfect obedience to the Father in His complete obedience to the Law is imputed, given, to us. In short, our sins were given to Jesus. His righteousness was given to us. Technically speaking our sins were imputed to Jesus. His righteousness was imputed to us.

Three main theological imputations:
a. The imputation of Adam's sin upon the human race.
b. The imputation of the race's sin upon Christ.
c. The imputation of God's righteousness upon the believing sinner.

Adoption: The word literally means the placing of a son. Adoption logically follows regeneration. Regeneration gives one his nature as a child of God, whereas adoption gives him his position as a son of God (Rom. 8:15-23; 2 Cor. 6:18; Gal 4:4-6; Eph. 1:5).

Justification: "By justification we mean that judicial act of God which, on account of Christ, to whom the sinner is united by faith, He declares that sinner to be no longer exposed to the penalty of the law, but restored to His favor." Justification is thus that legal act whereby man's status before God is changed for the good. To be justified is to be made righteous. It is a divine act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his sins. It is not that the sinner is now sinless, but that he is "declared" sinless. This justification is based on the shed blood of Jesus, "...having now been justified by His blood..." (Rom. 5:9). When God sees the Christian, He sees him through the sacrifice of Jesus and "sees" him without sin. This declaration of innocence is not without cost for it required the satisfaction of God's Law, "...without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Heb. 9:22). By the sacrifice of Jesus, in the "one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men" (Rom. 5:18, NASB). In justification, the justice of God fell upon Himself--Jesus. We receive mercy--we are not judged according to our sins. And grace is shed upon us--we receive eternal life. This justification is a gift of grace (Rom. 3:24), by faith (Rom. 3:28) because Jesus bore our guilt (Isaiah 53:12).

The propitiation has taken place!
We have been forgiven (remission)
We have been redeemed!
We have been imputed the righteousness of Christ.
We have been adopted as God’s children.
We have been justified.

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1

That there will be no hell for believers is obvious from the scriptures.
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Originally posted by John Wells:
That's the atmosphere of the JSOC, Lacy, an awards ceremony!
Says you.

KJV 2 Corinthians 5:9-11
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Says God.

Sound like a party to you? You do an honest word search on the term "judgment seat" (Bema if you mistrust the original English) and see how many "award's ceremonies" you find.


Lacy

Why did he not "Pay" enough for the fornicating brother at Corinth to not get dis-fellowshipped? Why did he not "pay" enough for the believers who failed to properly take the Lord's supper at Corinth not to die? What in the world does eternal security have to do with the Father's chastening?

I believe he paid it all. Now I am a son and subject to house rules.
 

James_Newman

New Member
John Wells sez
But all Christians (true believers) become completely worthy by the grace of God through His imputed righteousness.
What is a true believer? I looked it up in my concordance and I couldn't find it. Maybe you could show it to me in scripture?
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Originally posted by John Wells:
That there will be no hell for believers is obvious from the scriptures.
That there will be no loss of salvation is clear. That no believer will end up in the lake of Fire is clear. You have NO verses assuring you that a Christian won't be chastened after death at the JSOC. Not One! You just keep trotting out the same old salvation verses and applying them to rewards.

Lacy

BTW. I went to Bible school one day in my brothers place. Your fancy glossary adds nothing to the argument because each term must be rightly divided and placed in its proper context.
 

John Wells

New Member
Originally posted by James Newman:
What is a true believer? I looked it up in my concordance and I couldn't find it. Maybe you could show it to me in scripture?
Getting a little smartsy there, James! Must have hit a sore spot. :D A "true believer" is one who belongs to God because their heart is right with God. They have saving faith. This is opposed to a "false believer," of which there are many running around chrisendom today, claiming the name of Jesus but not having hearts surrendered to Him as Lord! I hope and trust we are in agreement! ;)
 

av1611jim

New Member
John said,"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1"

Many new versions (if not all) like to leave off the ending of this verse. Let's leave that alone shall we?

Let's skip on down to Romans 8:4 and see what we have here...

Glory be! look at this..."who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit".
Why the conditional tag-on?
Look at another one.
"Lest I myself should be a castaway"
Why would Paul include this tag-on?
And this..."...of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."
Now why would he include this?
If he were NOT talking to believers and about believers?
Be not deceived, God is not mocked. For whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Now why would Paul include this warning?
Over and over again Paul admonishes believers to live a HOLY life. Yet by your theology, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why we should. "Don't worry, it's all in the bag. Jesus got 'cha covered bro. Live like you want. There's no condemnation at all for you now. Just be happy and free bro!"
That my friend...is the "H" word.
Nowhere will you find that God winks at ungodly living for the believer. Jesus did pay for my sins. But as Paul so rightly exhorts us, it is not a license.
In fact, Paul does the opposite. He tells us that for one to trample the Blood under foot; it is a most heinous thing. This is in truth what your doctrine leads to.
Ye think not?
Then explain why western Christianity is in such a mess today.
In His service;
Jim

(edited for spelling errors)
 

James_Newman

New Member
Originally posted by John Wells:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James Newman:
What is a true believer? I looked it up in my concordance and I couldn't find it. Maybe you could show it to me in scripture?
Getting a little smartsy there, James! Must have hit a sore spot. :D A "true believer" is one who belongs to God because their heart is right with God. They have saving faith. This is opposed to a "false believer," of which there are many running around chrisendom today, claiming the name of Jesus but not having hearts surrendered to Him as Lord! I hope and trust we are in agreement! ;) </font>[/QUOTE]So you can't show it to me in scripture then?
 

John Wells

New Member
quote:
________________________________________
KJV 2 Corinthians 5:9-11
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
________________________________________

Lacy: Sound like a party to you? You do an honest word search on the term "judgment seat" (Bema if you mistrust the original English) and see how many "award's ceremonies" you find.

the terror of the Lord. This is more clearly rendered, “the fear of the Lord.” It is not referring to being afraid, but to Paul’s worshipful reverence for God as his essential motivation to live in such a way as to honor his Lord and maximize his reward for his Lord’s glory. Yes, we all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, believers at the JSOC to receive their rewards, and unbelievers at the GWT to receive their punishment. Please provide scriptures that refute that!

Lacy: Why did he not "Pay" enough for the fornicating brother at Corinth to not get dis-fellowshipped? Why did he not "pay" enough for the believers who failed to properly take the Lord's supper at Corinth not to die? What in the world does eternal security have to do with the Father's chastening?

Off-topic comment!! You are now discussing consequences of sin during one’s life, not after-life sins. Please stay on topic.

Lacy: I believe he paid it all. Now I am a son and subject to house rules.

Cute, irrelevant but cute!

Lacy: You have NO verses assuring you that a Christian won't be chastened after death at the JSOC. Not One! You just keep trotting out the same old salvation verses and applying them to rewards.

Yes I have. Why don’t you comment on them instead of this useless rhetoric. Otherwise, I might have to conclude I’m just “casting pearls!”

Lacy: BTW. I went to Bible school one day in my brothers place. Your fancy glossary adds nothing to the argument because each term must be rightly divided and placed in its proper context.

Which I did. They add EVERYTHING to the argument. Care to respond to any of them? Refute any of them? How can we (as the scriptures clearly state) be declared/viewed as righteous by God and then punished after death? How can God “remember our sins no more,” and then remember our sins some more? :D
 

av1611jim

New Member
The same way He can say "Be not deceived, God is not mocked, Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

In His service;
Jim
 

av1611jim

New Member
They which do such things shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of God.

Kingdom of God does not equal heaven/eternal life.
In His service;
Jim
 

James_Newman

New Member
Lacy: Why did he not "Pay" enough for the fornicating brother at Corinth to not get dis-fellowshipped? Why did he not "pay" enough for the believers who failed to properly take the Lord's supper at Corinth not to die? What in the world does eternal security have to do with the Father's chastening?

Off-topic comment!! You are now discussing consequences of sin during one’s life, not after-life sins. Please stay on topic.
This is absolutely on-topic. How can you say Christ payed it all if it doesn't cover the consequences of sin in this life? If you have Christ's righteousness, how do you explain chastening for sins in this life?
 
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