HELL IS NOT LAKE OF FIRE

[Marcia]

Originally posted by michelle:
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Michelle;
I may remind you that Paul clearly says that hope is something not realized.
Salvation is realized and garaunteed for every believer.
What is NOT realized is entrance into the Kingdom of Christ
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Actually what is not YET REALIZED and what we indeed HOPE FOR is our GLORIFIED BODIES. The kingdom of God is within us and not something to be hoped for, as we already are part of it.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Michelle is right. The hope is for our glorified bodies, as expressed in Romans 8.22-25:

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

When you use scripture like that, please give the reference to support your point. Otherwise, we will look it up ourselves to see how it's being used, as we did in this case. You statement about the hope being for entrance into the Kingdom is not supported by this passage you referred to.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Marcia and Michelle,

You are both correct that the redemption of the body is the hope of all creation.

However Jim's point was this. We are not motivated by a "hope" that everybody gets. I teach 8th grade. If I were to tell my kids that because they were OSAS (once stuidents always students) , they all get a 100 on their report card, what would happen?

Would they be grateful? Sure. Would they love me? Sure. Would they all work REALLY HARD because they were motivated by that love?

You gotta be kidding. Would you work for free? Would you challenge yourself on a job if there were no consequences for bad performance and no incentive for good performance?

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Someone posted that we put undo emphasis on obedience and works after faith. I believe some folks equal our emphasis on works but apply it unbiblically to assurance, whereas we correctly apply it to rewards.

Lacy

 

[michelle]

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However Jim's point was this. We are not motivated by a "hope" that everybody gets. I teach 8th grade. If I were to tell my kids that because they were OSAS (once stuidents always students) , they all get a 100 on their report card, what would happen?
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I do not know about you Lacy, but I am NOT motivated by rewards. I am motivated by the love of Christ, in that HE DIED and payed the FULL PENALTY FOR MY SINS, to which I DO NOT DESERVE. This is what motivates me. Just as when someone loves another person, more than anything else, they strive to please that person and always do good to and for them. I do not look to love that person because I am looking for something they can give back. True love is selfless with selfless motives, and not selfish, nor does it have selfish motives. Those things do not come automatically from LOVE, but is a worldly and carnal, lustful love - which isn't really love at all. Just as God gave himself for us selflessly, because God loved us. He came and served others, out of love, true and selfless love for us, and why also HE endured the cross and the wrath of God on OUR BEHALF. He did not do this to GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT IN RETURN, but did this out of and because of the fact that GOD IS PERFECT IN LOVE. This is what motivates me.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[David M Walker]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
Michelle;
I may remind you that Paul clearly says that hope is something not realized.
Salvation is realized and garaunteed for every believer.
What is NOT realized is entrance into the Kingdom of Christ.
This my friend is the blessed hope.
I hope to gain an entrance into it even as Paul said he hoped for the same.
I do NOT need to hope for heaven, since that is promised to all believers.
What is NOT promised is reigning with Jesus in the Kingdom. It is always conditional.
You cannot show otherwise.
As Paul has said after listing a string of ungodly behaviors, "...they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom og God".

People, this is not so hard to grasp.
I suspect the reason so many rebel at the thought is because their flesh hates to be held accountable for its actions.
In His service;
Jim

AMEN Jim!

Why else would people argue with a life directed towards holiness....

 

[michelle]

It has nothint to do with us who are saved against life directed toward holiness, as those who are saved are ALL FOR IT. It is the false teaching that a saved person can go to HELL that we are against, as it is very unbiblical.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by michelle:
I do not know about you Lacy, but I am NOT motivated by rewards. I am motivated by the love of Christ, in that HE DIED and payed the FULL PENALTY FOR MY SINS, to which I DO NOT DESERVE. This is what motivates me.

That sounds noble, and is partly true. We, as we mature in the Lord, should be motivated more and more by the desire to please God. However to not be motivated by rewards is to directly disobey the scriptural command:

1Jo 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Here we learn what it means Biblically to "love God" and to be "motivated by Love". Obedience to commandments is Love.

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

2Jo 1:8
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Proverbs 26:10 The great God that formed all things both REWARDETH the fool, and REWARDETH transgressors.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth THE PRIZE? So run, that YE MAY OBTAIN.

Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the REWARD OF THE INHERITANCE: for ye serve the Lord Christ.


2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be COUNTED WORTHY of the KINGDOM of God, for which ye also SUFFER: [2 Timothy 2:12]

Then in these verses (and in many more) we see that the command is to believe God is a rewarder. Notice it said "MUST!"

How insulting must it be to God when he promises reward, commands us to seek the Kingdom, crowns, the prize, etc., and we say, "That's OK, I really don't care about the reward, I'm just motivated by 'love'." Be very careful not to despise what God has graciously offered you, empowered and commanded you to obtain, and made provision for your quest.

The Bible says to seek reward.

Lacy

 

[JohnBaskette]

Lets here God tell us how to love him:
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Point being, one of his commandments is to seek reward.

Lacy

 

[JohnBaskette]

Of course, IT IS A COMMAND TO SEEK HIS KINGDOM

 

[michelle]

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Here we learn what it means Biblically to "love God" and to be "motivated by Love". Obedience to commandments is Love.
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Exactly Lacy, to which is motivated by LOVE not REWARDS, as you are claiming.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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The Bible says to seek reward
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To which you refuse to see what those rewards are and why we recieve them. You think you recieve rewards based upon your own merit. No, it is based upon your faith in Jesus Christ and the Love that motivates you to serve him, which comes ONLY from God himself. It is what we do in His will, and we do it because we LOVE him, not because we are only looking for rewards. You are clearly confused Lacy.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by michelle:
Here we learn what it means Biblically to "love God" and to be "motivated by Love". Obedience to commandments is Love.

The Bible makes no such distinction, nor contains any such command. You are grasping at straws now.

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by michelle:
To which you refuse to see what those rewards are and why we recieve them. You think you recieve rewards based upon your own merit. No, it is based upon your faith in Jesus Christ and the Love that motivates you to serve him, which comes ONLY from God himself. It is what we do in His will, and we do it because we LOVE him, not because we are only looking for rewards. You are clearly confused Lacy.

I am clearly answering every one of your increasingly subjective arguments with verse after verse that prove my points. Michelle, I have already wrestled and sweated blood over all these arguments. I nearly had a fist fight with my pastor who introduced me to the truth. I feel your pain.

Lacy

 

[michelle]

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Originally posted by michelle:
Here we learn what it means Biblically to "love God" and to be "motivated by Love". Obedience to commandments is Love.

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The Bible makes no such distinction, nor contains any such command. You are grasping at straws now.

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This is from Jesus own mouth:


Matthew 22

32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
34. But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36. Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.
39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Mark 10

18. And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24. And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27. And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
28. Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30. But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
31. But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

Luke 6

43. For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
45. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47. Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48. He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


You are confusing the unsaved with the saved, and confusing scriptures speaking of and explaining the attributes of the unsaved with those that are saved.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Lacy Evans
Marcia and Michelle,

You are both correct that the redemption of the body is the hope of all creation.

However Jim's point was this. We are not motivated by a "hope" that everybody gets.

No, the point of Jim's post was that the hope we have is for the Kingdom, when the scipture clearly says the hope is for the redemption of the body. Jim was wrong and Michelle pointed that out and I agreed.

 

[James_Newman]

No, his point is that hope is something that is not realized. You don't hope your husband will come home from war if the war is already won. You don't hope it isn't raining when the sun is out. You don't hope to be saved in eternity, you already are. There is a hope of salvation, but it is not your eternal salvation. Do you believe Jesus died for you or do you hope Jesus died for you?

 

[DHK]

James,
In your theology do you believe that in this life, one must attain sinless perfection or entire sanctification.
DHK

 

[James_Newman]

I believe we have already obtained complete sanctification in regards to our eternal salvation. Jesus paid it all, Hallelujah! I don't think that we can be 'sinlessly perfect' as only Christ was perfect. But we can be a lot more perfect than we are willing to admit. The bible says Job was perfect. He feared God and eschewed evil. Throughout his trials, he sinned not with his lips.

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

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Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If we break the least of the commandments, we will be the least in the kingdom. If we do them and teach them, we will be great in the kingdom. But unless our righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees, we will not enter the kingdom. The pharisees were very righteous outwardly, but were not clean on the inside, right? Jesus wants us clean on the outside and the inside.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus never said they were wrong to tithe, He said they needed to do that AND the weightier matters, love the Lord God with all their heart, mind, body, soul etc... He wants us to give everything! What can we hold back from Him who died to save us from our sins?

God is merciful, I know that brother. I have great hope that He wants me to be in His kingdom. I don't think He would have brought me to repentance after what I was doing if it were not for His lovingkindness. As long as there is breath in us, we can come before the throne of grace and obtain forgiveness and mercy and get back up and in the race. It is His good pleasure to give us the kingdom. But if we believe God is just going to wink at sin, especially WILLFULL sin, at the judgment seat, were dead wrong.

What is willfull sin? Willfull sin is doing something that we have been convicted of as sin, even though we know its wrong, and even though we know we can not do it. We justify these little things in our minds somehow, say its not so bad, God will look the other way, everyone else is doing it, its a cultural thing, whatever. Sin is sin! God's standards never change, we are the ones who are removing the old landmarks. We are going to be judged for willfull sin, more than anything. Unwillfull sin is a little hard to define, but there are ways to fight the unwillfull sins in our lives.

As for this lie that true Christians really don't 'continue' in sin (whatever that means) one misstep will bring that house of cards down around a proud Christian's ears. The bible doesn't say take heed lest ye fall for nothing.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by James Newman:
No, his point is that hope is something that is not realized. You don't hope your husband will come home from war if the war is already won. You don't hope it isn't raining when the sun is out. You don't hope to be saved in eternity, you already are. There is a hope of salvation, but it is not your eternal salvation. Do you believe Jesus died for you or do you hope Jesus died for you?

This was his post, which I think is implying that Paul said our hope is for entrance into the Kingdom:

I may remind you that Paul clearly says that hope is something not realized.
Salvation is realized and garaunteed for every believer.
What is NOT realized is entrance into the Kingdom of Christ

Paul's words are about a hope that will be realized in the redemption of our bodies.

The hope we have through Christ is not hope like when we say, "I hope it doesn't rain" or "I hope the Yankees (or whoever, I am not a sports fan) win."

Biblical hope is something that is assured because our hope is in Christ. We don't hope in vain as believers.

And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. Rom 5.5

If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. 1 Cor 15.19

And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 2 Cor 3.11-12

I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. Eph 1.18-19

 

[DHK]

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

James,
If you believe:
"I believe we have already obtained complete sanctification in regards to our eternal salvation."
"The bible doesn't say take heed lest ye fall for nothing."

Then, according to the above verses are you not making Christ a liar, deceiving your own self, and admitting that the truth is not in you?

When you go to such lengths to describe sin as being wilfull sin, or unwilfull sin, etc., it reminds of the Catholic Church. I once was a Catholic. Sin is divided into mortal sin, venial sin, original sin, actual sin. Your concepts seem to come from the Catholic Church, both concerning the division of sin, and the punishment in the Kingdom (purgatory).
I am also reminded that if I die of a sudden heart attack or in an accident where I do not have the opportunity of not being able to go to my Heavenly Father and confess that willful sin, that I will be punished in that Baptist purgatory.
Likewise if the priest doesn't get there in time for the sacrament of extreme unction, and I haven't been to confession to confess some terrible sin there is no hope for me as a Catholic either. The entire concept is taken from the Catholic Church, it appears. It just appears to be more Catholic than it does Biblical.
DHK