Hell: Which View is The Bible One?

[AndyMartin]

First, the orthodox view is commonly interpreted to be the belief that punishment for the wicked is everlasting and that it is punitive, not redemptive. Because the Bible reveals that God is a God of love and grace, a tension has developed between the concepts of a loving God and of a righteous God who demands absolute justice of the wicked. It is generally conceded, however, that a strict orthodoxy provides a literal everlasting punishment for the wicked.

Second, a view of hell as metaphorical, that is, somewhat non-literal and less specific than the orthodox view, has also attracted many followers. Usually it is conceded that those who are wicked will never be redeemed and restored to a place of blessing in eternity, but the scriptural accounts of their suffering and divine judgment are taken in a less-than-literal understanding.

Third, the Roman Catholic view sees hell as purgatorial, that is, hell has an ante-chamber called purgatory, a place of divine cleansing from which some, at least, will eventually emerge as redeemed and be among the blessed of God. Generally speaking, this view requires that all must go through a period of purgation in which their unconfessed sins are judged and punishment inflicted. Though it may be extensive and continue over a period of time, ultimately, many will be restored to a place of grace and bliss, though others will be damned eternally.

Fourth, the view of hell as a conditional or temporary situation for the wicked has been advocated by many who find a contradiction between the doctrines of everlasting punishment and of a God of love and grace. As a result, they explain that hell is either temporary, in the sense that immortality is conditional and only the righteous will be raised, or that it is redemptive, in the sense that whatever suffering there may be after this life because of sin will end up in the wicked being redeemed and restored to a place of blessing. In other words, conditional immortality or annihilation lessens the severity and the extent of everlasting punishment, while in universalism, all are eventually saved.

 

[evangelist6589]

First, the orthodox view is commonly interpreted to be the belief that punishment for the wicked is everlasting and that it is punitive, not redemptive. Because the Bible reveals that God is a God of love and grace, a tension has developed between the concepts of a loving God and of a righteous God who demands absolute justice of the wicked. It is generally conceded, however, that a strict orthodoxy provides a literal everlasting punishment for the wicked.

Second, a view of hell as metaphorical, that is, somewhat non-literal and less specific than the orthodox view, has also attracted many followers. Usually it is conceded that those who are wicked will never be redeemed and restored to a place of blessing in eternity, but the scriptural accounts of their suffering and divine judgment are taken in a less-than-literal understanding.

Third, the Roman Catholic view sees hell as purgatorial, that is, hell has an ante-chamber called purgatory, a place of divine cleansing from which some, at least, will eventually emerge as redeemed and be among the blessed of God. Generally speaking, this view requires that all must go through a period of purgation in which their unconfessed sins are judged and punishment inflicted. Though it may be extensive and continue over a period of time, ultimately, many will be restored to a place of grace and bliss, though others will be damned eternally.

Fourth, the view of hell as a conditional or temporary situation for the wicked has been advocated by many who find a contradiction between the doctrines of everlasting punishment and of a God of love and grace. As a result, they explain that hell is either temporary, in the sense that immortality is conditional and only the righteous will be raised, or that it is redemptive, in the sense that whatever suffering there may be after this life because of sin will end up in the wicked being redeemed and restored to a place of blessing. In other words, conditional immortality or annihilation lessens the severity and the extent of everlasting punishment, while in universalism, all are eventually saved.

The first or second views. It's literal or the punishment metaphorical. Instead of flaming fire it may be something else.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Fourth, the view of hell as a conditional or temporary situation for the wicked has been advocated by many who find a contradiction between the doctrines of everlasting punishment and of a God of love and grace.

Actually, there are many who believe in conditional immortality, not because of perceived conflicts between God's grace and eternal torture, but because they see that the scripture teaches it consistently. See the Rethinking Hell site for background on this.

 

[rlvaughn]

Perhaps that there is no hell at all is a fifth view. The Universalist Primitive Baptist hold a view something like this, except they believe there is a "hell" punishment in the temporal world now.

I hold that hell (perhaps more specifically, the lake of fire) is literal punishment that is everlasting.

 

[kyredneck]

Actually, there are many who believe in conditional immortality, not because of perceived conflicts between God's grace and eternal torture, but because they see that the scripture teaches it consistently. See the Rethinking Hell site for background on this.

Thanks for the link.

 

[kyredneck]

Perhaps that there is no hell at all is a fifth view. The Universalist Primitive Baptist hold a view something like this, except they believe there is a "hell" punishment in the temporal world now.

There's actually very few of them. We call them 'no-hellers'. Some PBs will allow no-heller preachers to visit on the condition they not preach the doctrine. I've heard some mighty spiritual preaching from a couple of no-hellers.

I'm a 'slow-heller'. I think a whoooole lot of passages that many consider to mean eternal consequences do not.

 

[Rob_BW]

I'm a 'slow-heller'. I think a whoooole lot of passages that many consider to mean eternal consequences do not.

Care to share a few here? I could stand to hear a bit more, and it seems within the scope of the thread.

 

[kyredneck]

Care to share a few here? I could stand to hear a bit more, and it seems within the scope of the thread.

Sure, here's one, a BIG one:

13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.
14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it. Mt 7

Here's another:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Mt 3

Another:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

There's three, let's pick them apart. Your thoughts?

I must go take care of business, be back later.

 

[AndyMartin]

Sure, here's one, a BIG one:

13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.
14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it. Mt 7

Here's another:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Mt 3

Another:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

There's three, let's pick them apart. Your thoughts?

I must go take care of business, be back later



Audience relevance should prevail here. The passage is prophetic and this is 'The Prophet' (who came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel) addressing 'that generation' on whom the end of the age was coming with great wrath. The 'few' are the 'remnant' of Israel who escaped the wrath to come

Hi kyredneck, before I respond, can you please clarify your position on hell. Are you saying that the Bible does not teach that hell is "eternal"? That the "fire" of hell will go out at some time? Does this mean that you hold to annihilationism? Thanks, Andy

 

[AndyMartin]

The first or second views. It's literal or the punishment metaphorical. Instead of flaming fire it may be something else.

Yes, I agree, 3 or 4 are non starters. There is a lot of metaphor used in the Bible, especially in the Book of Revelation. But, I don't think that this detracts from the fact that hell will be a place of eternal suffering. The language used by Jesus Himself in describing the eternal destiny of the lost, as in "gnashing of teeth", "their (note the personal language for "body", and not the) worm does not die", "agony", and the account of the rich man and Lazarus, which is not a parable, shows that the "sufferings" are not "metaphorical", though the "mode", like the "fire", could well be. I personally find the Doctrine of Hell to be the saddest and most difficult in the entire Bible. But God is just, and knows what He is doing.

 

[kyredneck]

Hi kyredneck, before I respond, can you please clarify your position on hell. Are you saying that the Bible does not teach that hell is "eternal"? That the "fire" of hell will go out at some time? Does this mean that you hold to annihilationism? Thanks, Andy

Hi Andy, I took one last look before I left so I'll respond to you. If it wasn't for the story/parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man I probably would be in the annihilist camp but just can't work around that one. As odd as it may seem I'm not convinced 100% of any one view. I'm looking forward to discussing it.

Thanks for starting the thread.

(waiting for the hardliners to show up and warn of eternal judgement to those that don't see it their way)

 

[Baptist Believer]

The language used by Jesus Himself in describing the eternal destiny of the lost, as in ... '[the] worm does not die"

Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66 as a point of reference, specifically Isaiah 66:24 in the context of everything that has come before it - specifically Isaiah 66:15-17 - when it describes the LORD slaying all of his enemies. Isaiah 66:24 reads:

“Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”​

The bodies of the LORD's enemies will be shamefully consumed by animals and fire, and no one will give them an honorable burial. There will be no one to clean the maggots (worms) off of the body, so they will not die (maggots become flies) and there will be no one to put out the fire (quench) until it consumes their remains.

Notice that it doesn't say that the fire will not go out on its own, only that it will not be quenched.

So when Jesus quotes Isaiah 66, it is powerful evidence AGAINST eternal conscious torment.

I personally find the Doctrine of Hell to be the saddest and most difficult in the entire Bible. But God is just, and knows what He is doing.

I find the subject of God's righteous judgment to be quite sad, but it is not difficult if you set aside tradition and study what the text actually says. God is setting everything right.

 

[TCassidy]

I want to believe hell is not real. But I can't. The bible won't allow it.

I want to believe hell is metaphorical, but I can't. The bible won't allow it.

However, I have a problem with people who demand that hell is real, physical, fire. I believe hell is real spiritual fire. I am not convinced physical fire can punish a spirit, and the body is in the grave, not in hell. Unless, of course, you believe in an intermediate body in hell prior to the resurrection unto eternal life or eternal death.

So, I am forced (by that dratted bible) to believe that hell is real, hell fire is real spiritual fire, and the lake of fire is eternal. But I hate to have to think that way. If I was not absolutely convinced the bible won't allow it I would be a universalist.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I want to believe hell is not real. But I can't. The bible won't allow it.

If hell=lake of fire, then absolutely.

I want to believe hell is metaphorical, but I can't. The bible won't allow it.

Yep, real judgment coming.

However, I have a problem with people who demand that hell is real, physical, fire. I believe hell is real spiritual fire. I am not convinced physical fire can punish a spirit, and the body is in the grave, not in hell. Unless, of course, you believe in an intermediate body in hell prior to the resurrection unto eternal life or eternal death.

That's the sticking point for me as to the story of the rich man and Lazarus being something other than a parable/illustration. I don't argue either way on that, but I don't think we can use it as an example of a final destiny for humankind.

So, I am forced (by that dratted bible) to believe that hell is real, hell fire is real spiritual fire, and the lake of fire is eternal. But I hate to have to think that way.

The way I've landed is that the lake of fire is real and it will consume everything thrown into it - including death and Hades - and will last as long as required. The consequences of the final judgment are eternal and will not be reverse. It is the truest and final death penalty.

If I was not absolutely convinced the bible won't allow it I would be a universalist.

I appreciate that sentiment, but I long for there to be consequences for those who commit evil and escape this life without truly answering for their crimes.

 

[AndyMartin]

Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66 as a point of reference, specifically Isaiah 66:24 in the context of everything that has come before it - specifically Isaiah 66:15-17 - when it describes the LORD slaying all of his enemies. Isaiah 66:24 reads:

“Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”​

The bodies of the LORD's enemies will be shamefully consumed by animals and fire, and no one will give them an honorable burial. There will be no one to clean the maggots (worms) off of the body, so they will not die (maggots become flies) and there will be no one to put out the fire (quench) until it consumes their remains.

Notice that it doesn't say that the fire will not go out on its own, only that it will not be quenched.

So when Jesus quotes Isaiah 66, it is powerful evidence AGAINST eternal conscious torment.


I find the subject of God's righteous judgment to be quite sad, but it is not difficult if you set aside tradition and study what the text actually says. God is setting everything right.

Firstly, the Hebrew verb, "kabah", actually means, "will not go out, be extinguished". It is an eternal fire. The Greek equivalent is "ἄσβεστος" (our English "asbestos") which also means, "unquenchable, inextinguishable" (as in Mark 9:46, etc). Revelation 14:11 says, "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.", which again shows that the sufferings of the damned are both "eternal and conscious".

Secondly, the use of "worm" here has got nothing to do with "maggots", but the "human body", as in Isaiah 41:14, God says, "Do not fear, you worm Jacob". It does not say, where "the worm", but "their worm", that is, "their bodies", will not "die", from the Hebrew, "muth", which is "to perish".

Thirdly, the account of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, clearly says that the "torment" that the lost will endure will be "conscious". These words are spoken by Jesus Christ Himself, and there is no softening of what He is saying here.

Fourthly, in Matthew 13:42, where Jesus is again the Speaker, we read, "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth", again shows that He meant us understand that the suffering will indeed be, "conscious", and of "extreme pain". Even the Unitarian, Dr Joseph Thayer, has this to say on "gnashing of teeth", "a phrase denoting the extreme anguish and utter despair of men consigned to eternal condemnation" (Greek-English Lexicon).

 

[AndyMartin]

I want to believe hell is not real. But I can't. The bible won't allow it.

I want to believe hell is metaphorical, but I can't. The bible won't allow it.

However, I have a problem with people who demand that hell is real, physical, fire. I believe hell is real spiritual fire. I am not convinced physical fire can punish a spirit, and the body is in the grave, not in hell. Unless, of course, you believe in an intermediate body in hell prior to the resurrection unto eternal life or eternal death.

So, I am forced (by that dratted bible) to believe that hell is real, hell fire is real spiritual fire, and the lake of fire is eternal. But I hate to have to think that way. If I was not absolutely convinced the bible won't allow it I would be a universalist.

Are you saying that hell is not a literal place of eternal conscious torment for the wicked, and that it all ends in the grave? We cannot use our human understanding to comprehend what God can do in afflicting pain on a spiritual body. Can you define what you mean by "hell"?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Matthew 25:46. 'And these [wicked] will go into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'
The Greek word for 'everlasting' and 'eternal' is the same (aionios), so if hell is not everlasting, neither is heaven.

Instead of trying to often the word of God, Christians should do two things:-
1. Make sure we know where we're going.
2. Tell others how to get to the same place.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Firstly, the Hebrew verb, "kabah", actually means, "will not go out, be extinguished". It is an eternal fire. The Greek equivalent is "ἄσβεστος" (our English "asbestos") which also means, "unquenchable, inextinguishable" (as in Mark 9:46, etc).

Yes, that was my point. No one will or can extinguish the fire. That does NOT mean that the fire will not die on its own when it runs out of fuel.

Revelation 14:11 says, "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.", which again shows that the sufferings of the damned are both "eternal and conscious".

No it does not.

The "smoke rising..." imagery is used in the scriptures to indicate complete and eternal destruction. Speaking of Edom, Isaiah wrote (Isaiah 34:8-10):

For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.​

If you can show me where Edom is still burning today, that would go a long way toward supporting your interpretation.

Secondly, the use of "worm" here has got nothing to do with "maggots", but the "human body", as in Isaiah 41:14, God says, "Do not fear, you worm Jacob". It does not say, where "the worm", but "their worm", that is, "their bodies", will not "die", from the Hebrew, "muth", which is "to perish"

That's a really interesting view. Unfortunately it simply does not jibe with the text that Jesus is quoting (Isaiah 66). The corpses (they were already slain) were being eaten by the worms - they were not the worms themselves.

Unless you are going to assert that Jesus wasn't actually quoting Isaiah 66, or that Jesus did not want his audience to consider the context of Isaiah 66 (they would have been quite familiar with it), then your assertion is invalid.

Thirdly, the account of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, clearly says that the "torment" that the lost will endure will be "conscious". These words are spoken by Jesus Christ Himself, and there is no softening of what He is saying here.

Whatever you claim about the rich man and Lazarus passage, it is not the same thing as the lake of fire in Revelation. If it is actually talking about what happens after death with specificity, then it is referring to the intermediate state before the final judgment.

Fourthly, in Matthew 13:42, where Jesus is again the Speaker, we read, "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth", again shows that He meant us understand that the suffering will indeed be, "conscious", and of "extreme pain".

A time of consciousness and extreme pain? Sure. Eternal conscious torment? It makes no such assertion. In fact, earlier in the teaching before Jesus explains the point in more detail, refers to the tare being "burned up" (see Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 13:40). That is definitely NOT eternal conscious torment.

Even the Unitarian, Dr Joseph Thayer, has this to say on "gnashing of teeth", "a phrase denoting the extreme anguish and utter despair of men consigned to eternal condemnation" (Greek-English Lexicon).

Why are you quoting Unitarians? Let's stick with scripture.

No one is denying that judgment will be painful or conscious. The issue is whether or not it will be eternal in duration.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Matthew 25:46. 'And these [wicked] will go into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'
The Greek word for 'everlasting' and 'eternal' is the same (aionios), so if hell is not everlasting, neither is heaven.

When humans execute someone using the death penalty. Is that irreversible by human means? Yep.

All this is saying is that the destinies are final.

 

[AndyMartin]

Yes, that was my point. No one will or can extinguish the fire. That does NOT mean that the fire will not die on its own when it runs out of fuel.


No it does not.

The "smoke rising..." imagery is used in the scriptures to indicate complete and eternal destruction. Speaking of Edom, Isaiah wrote (Isaiah 34:8-10):

For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.​

If you can show me where Edom is still burning today, that would go a long way toward supporting your interpretation.


That's a really interesting view. Unfortunately it simply does not jibe with the text that Jesus is quoting (Isaiah 66). The corpses (they were already slain) were being eaten by the worms - they were not the worms themselves.

Unless you are going to assert that Jesus wasn't actually quoting Isaiah 66, or that Jesus did not want his audience to consider the context of Isaiah 66 (they would have been quite familiar with it), then your assertion is invalid.


Whatever you claim about the rich man and Lazarus passage, it is not the same thing as the lake of fire in Revelation. If it is actually talking about what happens after death with specificity, then it is referring to the intermediate state before the final judgment.


A time of consciousness and extreme pain? Sure. Eternal conscious torment? It makes no such assertion. In fact, earlier in the teaching before Jesus explains the point in more detail, refers to the tare being "burned up" (see Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 13:40). That is definitely NOT eternal conscious torment.


Why are you quoting Unitarians? Let's stick with scripture.

No one is denying that judgment will be painful or conscious. The issue is whether or not it will be eternal in duration.

I cannot believe that you actually said and believe this? "Yes, that was my point. No one will or can extinguish the fire. That does NOT mean that the fire will not die on its own when it runs out of fuel."

Is this a joke? Are you saying that Almighty God, Who created all things "out of nothing", is dependent upon "fuels" like we know it, which will some day run out? When God say something is "eternal", He means exactly that, and we must never second-guess how He will do it! None of the arguments that I have ever read, have been convincing against what the Bible actually teaches, that the place for the unbelieving wicked, is "eternal", and the duration of their "suffering", as also "without end".

What you are saying is that you believe that eventually the lost will be "wiped out, annihilated", which makes complete nonsense as to why Jesus came in the first place, if it was not to save condemned sinners from their sins and its consequences, which is "eternal suffering"