Hell: Which View is The Bible One?

[Revmitchell]

In speaking of eternal punishment if we are going to say that it is only for a duration then we must also hold that eternal life is also only for a duration in order to be consistent and credible.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I cannot believe that you actually said and believe this? "Yes, that was my point. No one will or can extinguish the fire. That does NOT mean that the fire will not die on its own when it runs out of fuel."

You lack of belief does not change reality.

Is this a joke? Are you saying that Almighty God, Who created all things "out of nothing", is dependent upon "fuels" like we know it, which will some day run out?

No, I am not saying that. I am pointing you to Isaiah 66 where the imagery that is used is that of a natural situation. In the natural course of things, when a fire runs out of fuel, it goes out.

You are taking offense at the plain picture that is presented in Isaiah 66.

When God say something is "eternal", He means exactly that, and we must never second-guess how He will do it!

I'm not second-guessing anything. The question at hand is whether or not the scripture teaches eternal conscious suffering. Present a a solid argument that demonstrates that and don't engage in sophistry to conceal that you have no good response.

Listen, I'm not actually trying to win an argument here. I want everyone to go back to the scripture and look at everything with fresh eyes and see if what I am saying has merit.

None of the arguments that I have ever read, have been convincing against what the Bible actually teaches, that the place for the unbelieving wicked, is "eternal", and the duration of their "suffering", as also "without end".

I suggest you check out the articles and Q&A on Rethinking Hell to see if your views can stand up to the many challenges made to what is called the "traditional" viewpoint. I am committed to being faithful to the scriptures, not what is popular, so I'm just pointing out problems with your assertions for the benefit of others.

What you are saying is that you believe that eventually the lost will be "wiped out, annihilated", which makes complete nonsense as to why Jesus came in the first place, if it was not to save condemned sinners from their sins and its consequences, which is "eternal suffering"

What I am saying is that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life" (see John 3:16).

Jesus came to give eternal/everlasting life to those who entrust themselves to Him. Otherwise, they perish. Read the gospels. There will be suffering, but it does not appear to be eternal. Even Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14) and are destroyed.

 

[TCassidy]

Are you saying that hell is not a literal place of eternal conscious torment for the wicked, and that it all ends in the grave?

No.

Can you define what you mean by "hell"?

A very real place of eternal torment for the wicked.

 

[Revmitchell]

No.
A very real place of eternal torment for the wicked.

I have no idea how he got that from your post.

 

[TCassidy]

I have no idea how he got that from your post.

I don't either.

 

[Baptist Believer]

In speaking of eternal punishment if we are going to say that it is only for a duration then we must also hold that eternal life is also only for a duration in order to be consistent and credible.

If death is the punishment, they they will stay dead. If life is the gift, they they will remain alive.

 

[AndyMartin]

No.
A very real place of eternal torment for the wicked.

thanks

 

[TCassidy]

The way I've landed is that the lake of fire is real and it will consume everything thrown into it - including death and Hades - and will last as long as required. The consequences of the final judgment are eternal and will not be reverse. It is the truest and final death penalty.

I would really like to believe that, and I see where you link annihilation to the judgement being eternal.

The problem I have with that view is Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

And Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

And Matt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[AndyMartin]

I would really like to believe that, and I see where you link annihilation to the judgement being eternal.

The problem I have with that view is Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

And Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

And Matt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It is difficult to argue for "eternal punishment" from the use of words, where the meanings might not always be what they seem. Like the words "eternal" in both Hebrew, "olam", and Greek, "aionios", which can also mean "for a duration", where the end is not "without end". I know they are used for "God", Who is from "everlasting to everlasting", but this is only one of the words uses. Another example from the passage in Isaiah you quote from, where we read "devouring fire", again the Hebrew "akal", can denote, "to consume, destroy", where it is used for the "utter destruction" of "stubble, chaff", etc

 

[AndyMartin]

You lack of belief does not change reality.


No, I am not saying that. I am pointing you to Isaiah 66 where the imagery that is used is that of a natural situation. In the natural course of things, when a fire runs out of fuel, it goes out.

You are taking offense at the plain picture that is presented in Isaiah 66.


I'm not second-guessing anything. The question at hand is whether or not the scripture teaches eternal conscious suffering. Present a a solid argument that demonstrates that and don't engage in sophistry to conceal that you have no good response.

Listen, I'm not actually trying to win an argument here. I want everyone to go back to the scripture and look at everything with fresh eyes and see if what I am saying has merit.


I suggest you check out the articles and Q&A on Rethinking Hell to see if your views can stand up to the many challenges made to what is called the "traditional" viewpoint. I am committed to being faithful to the scriptures, not what is popular, so I'm just pointing out problems with your assertions for the benefit of others.


What I am saying is that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life" (see John 3:16).

Jesus came to give eternal/everlasting life to those who entrust themselves to Him. Otherwise, they perish. Read the gospels. There will be suffering, but it does not appear to be eternal. Even Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14) and are destroyed.

The Bible does not teach anywhere that the wicked will at any time be "wiped out", "cease to exist". If there are Scriptures that do say this, then I would like to see them.

The severity of the punishment of the wicked was in the mind of Jesus, when He said of Judas, "The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born" (Mark 14:21). Jesus says of Judas here, who was about to betray Him, that it was "excellent" if he was never born. Why would He say such a thing, if He knew that one day Judas would cease to exist?

The biggest problem with "annihilationism", is the fact that the Christ-rejecting wicked already believe that after they die, that is it. As Paul says "eat, drink for tomorrow we die", is the motto of the unsaved world. This form of punishment is not what the Bible over and over teaches, that it will be WITHOUT END. No fires going out because of a shortage of fuel, or because there was not enough fuel to burn forever. This is wishful thinking with fatal consequences.

 

[Revmitchell]

If death is the punishment, they they will stay dead. If life is the gift, they they will remain alive.

So you are equating punishment in hell to annihilation?

 

[JonC]

Second, a view of hell as metaphorical, that is, somewhat non-literal and less specific than the orthodox view, has also attracted many followers. Usually it is conceded that those who are wicked will never be redeemed and restored to a place of blessing in eternity, but the scriptural accounts of their suffering and divine judgment are taken in a less-than-literal understanding.

I believe the second. The reason I believe this is that "fire" and "outer darkness", if taken literal, seem to pale in comparison to a just judgment of sinning against a holy God. I believe these to me metaphors for something eternally worse than fire and darkness.

 

[TCassidy]

Like the words "eternal" in both Hebrew, "olam", and Greek, "aionios",

Andy, where did you attend Seminary and how many hours of Greek and Hebrew did you take?

 

[AndyMartin]

Andy, where did you attend Seminary and how many hours of Greek and Hebrew did you take?

Please correct any mistakes you may find. I am better with Greek than Hebrew, but know that I am no scholar, and always welcome anyone to show my mistakes. If you can please take the time to point any errors, I would appreciate it, Thanks God bless, Andy

 

[evangelist6589]

You lack of belief does not change reality.


No, I am not saying that. I am pointing you to Isaiah 66 where the imagery that is used is that of a natural situation. In the natural course of things, when a fire runs out of fuel, it goes out.

You are taking offense at the plain picture that is presented in Isaiah 66.


I'm not second-guessing anything. The question at hand is whether or not the scripture teaches eternal conscious suffering. Present a a solid argument that demonstrates that and don't engage in sophistry to conceal that you have no good response.

Listen, I'm not actually trying to win an argument here. I want everyone to go back to the scripture and look at everything with fresh eyes and see if what I am saying has merit.


I suggest you check out the articles and Q&A on Rethinking Hell to see if your views can stand up to the many challenges made to what is called the "traditional" viewpoint. I am committed to being faithful to the scriptures, not what is popular, so I'm just pointing out problems with your assertions for the benefit of others.


What I am saying is that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life" (see John 3:16).

Jesus came to give eternal/everlasting life to those who entrust themselves to Him. Otherwise, they perish. Read the gospels. There will be suffering, but it does not appear to be eternal. Even Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14) and are destroyed.

Plenty of challenges to the conditional view have been made in book form. Whatever happened to Hell would be one and Hell on trial another.

 

[evangelist6589]

You lack of belief does not change reality.


No, I am not saying that. I am pointing you to Isaiah 66 where the imagery that is used is that of a natural situation. In the natural course of things, when a fire runs out of fuel, it goes out.

You are taking offense at the plain picture that is presented in Isaiah 66.


I'm not second-guessing anything. The question at hand is whether or not the scripture teaches eternal conscious suffering. Present a a solid argument that demonstrates that and don't engage in sophistry to conceal that you have no good response.

Listen, I'm not actually trying to win an argument here. I want everyone to go back to the scripture and look at everything with fresh eyes and see if what I am saying has merit.


I suggest you check out the articles and Q&A on Rethinking Hell to see if your views can stand up to the many challenges made to what is called the "traditional" viewpoint. I am committed to being faithful to the scriptures, not what is popular, so I'm just pointing out problems with your assertions for the benefit of others.


What I am saying is that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life" (see John 3:16).

Jesus came to give eternal/everlasting life to those who entrust themselves to Him. Otherwise, they perish. Read the gospels. There will be suffering, but it does not appear to be eternal. Even Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14) and are destroyed.

You claim to be faithful to scripture yet reject lordship salvation and the way of the Master.

 

[InTheLight]

You claim to be faithful to scripture yet reject lordship salvation and the way of the Master.

Exactly so.

Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

 

[Van]

I did not read the two pages of posts. I expect the usual suspects will have put forward their usual flawed views.

First "hell" is used to translation two very different Greek words (Hades and Gehenna). Hades appears to be the location where the unsaved spirits are taken at physical death. It is a place of torment. In the future the lost spirits will be resurrected and face final judgement at the Great White throne. Then the lost whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life will be tossed into the "Lake of Fire" (apparently located in Gehenna) and suffer eternal punishment. A great many believers accept that eternal punishment includes eternal separation from God and eternal torment. Others also believe in the eternal punishment of eternal separation, but have a difficult time squaring just punishment with some receiving more tolerable punishment with eternal torment for all. Suffice to say nothing in this life is worth going to Hades and Gehenna, so everyone should fall on their knees and put their faith in the truth which is Christ Jesus.

 

[Happy]

First, the orthodox view is commonly interpreted to be the belief that punishment for the wicked is everlasting and that it is punitive, not redemptive. Because the Bible reveals that God is a God of love and grace, a tension has developed between the concepts of a loving God and of a righteous God who demands absolute justice of the wicked. It is generally conceded, however, that a strict orthodoxy provides a literal everlasting punishment for the wicked.

For the "wicked" ~ yes, in application to demonic spirits (ie commonly referenced as fallen angels).
Eternal yes, because spirits do not die, so they continue to live and experience eternal separation from the Lord.
A physical eternal punishment for "mankind"? No.
An eternal punishment for "mankind"? Yes. The "punishment" is "eternal" separation from the Lord, NOT that they "exist" in "eternal punishment".

Second

, a view of hell as metaphorical, that is, somewhat non-literal and less specific than the orthodox view, has also attracted many followers. Usually it is conceded that those who are wicked will never be redeemed and restored to a place of blessing in eternity, but the scriptural accounts of their suffering and divine judgment are taken in a less-than-literal understanding.

True, the wicked will not be redeemed. Not true hell is a metaphorical place.

Third

, the Roman Catholic view sees hell as purgatorial, that is, hell has an ante-chamber called purgatory, a place of divine cleansing from which some, at least, will eventually emerge as redeemed and be among the blessed of God. Generally speaking, this view requires that all must go through a period of purgation in which their unconfessed sins are judged and punishment inflicted. Though it may be extensive and continue over a period of time, ultimately, many will be restored to a place of grace and bliss, though others will be damned eternally.

Purgatory is a place of WAITING. Hell called by the general term "Hell", has divisions, and has in the past been a "place of waiting" for the souls of those submitted unto the Word of God, AND a place of waiting for "souls whose bodies died in sin; ie unforgiven, and unsaved". The latter "unforgiven" ie unsaved souls still go to Hell to WAIT for judgement.

(Hell, in the general sense of the whole "place" in the center of the earth..... Sheol, Hades, Gehenna) being more specific to the comfort side of the dividing gulf or the torment side of the dividing gulf)

Fourth

, the view of hell as a conditional or temporary situation for the wicked has been advocated by many who find a contradiction between the doctrines of everlasting punishment and of a God of love and grace. As a result, they explain that hell is either temporary, in the sense that immortality is conditional and only the righteous will be raised, or that it is redemptive, in the sense that whatever suffering there may be after this life because of sin will end up in the wicked being redeemed and restored to a place of blessing. In other words, conditional immortality or annihilation lessens the severity and the extent of everlasting punishment, while in universalism, all are eventually saved.

Taking a quip from a doctrine without full disclosure is disingenuous. Not saying you have done so, but rather often different doctrine present their beliefs without full disclosure.

Scripture is quite clear.
God created and prepared a place for all of his creations. The WHERE and WHEN a created angel or a created man WILL or WILL not experience the places God has "prepared" is entirely dependent upon the "choices" an angel or man makes. (and will note the exception of juvenile humans).

To your Topic...
Featured Hell: Which View is The Bible One?

Each has a "bit" of the truth, but not the WHOLE truth.

Scripture teaches God desires we become "made" WHOLE, (according to Gods understanding of WHOLE) .... our body's, our souls, our spirits, our minds, our knowing His Whole Truth and the understanding thereof.

 

[Baptist Believer]

The problem I have with that view is Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I suggest to you that John is using a Hebrew idiom to indicate total destruction, just as Isaiah used this same idiom to described the destruction of Edom:

Speaking of Edom, Isaiah wrote (Isaiah 34:8-10):

For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.​

Since, as far as I know, there is no place in the Middle East where there has been smoke continually rising for several thousand years where no one has passed through it - much less, where Edom used to be located - that this phrasing indicates an overstatement to indicate intensity and finality.

And Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

I have always taken the devouring/consuming fire to be a reference to God (Deutoronomy 4:24 and Hebrews 12:29), so you've given me something to think about.

And Matt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

(1) I think the term "everlasting" is used to demonstrate the intensity and finality of the fire.
(2) Even if the fire is literally everlasting, that does not mean that the fire does not consume what is in it. Death itself is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14) and then just a bit later, death is declared to be no more (Revelation 21:4).