Hell: Which View is The Bible One?

[rsr]

Third, the Roman Catholic view sees hell as purgatorial, that is, hell has an ante-chamber called purgatory, a place of divine cleansing from which some, at least, will eventually emerge as redeemed and be among the blessed of God. Generally speaking, this view requires that all must go through a period of purgation in which their unconfessed sins are judged and punishment inflicted. Though it may be extensive and continue over a period of time, ultimately, many will be restored to a place of grace and bliss, though others will be damned eternally.

No, you are conflating two different doctrines here. Purgatory, to an English speaking Catholic, is not hell. In fact, John Paul II went so far to say that those in Purgatory are those who "in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house. Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude."

Hell, on the other hand, is not Purgatory but the infinite playing out of the choices people have made in temporal existence.

"This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: "To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell.'

"'Eternal damnation', therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God's judgement ratifies this state."

 

[TCassidy]

Please correct any mistakes you may find.

Okay.

It is difficult to argue for "eternal punishment" from the use of words, where the meanings might not always be what they seem. Like the words "eternal" in both Hebrew, "olam",

Deu 33:27 The eternal God is thy dwelling place . . .

Eternal: קדם (qedem) Before time.

Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

Eternal: עולם (‛ôlâm) Time unthinkable (out of mind)

and Greek, "aionios",

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Eternal: αιωνιον (aiōnion) Perpetual

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Eternal: αιδιος (aidios) Everduring (everlasting).

 

[Baptist Believer]

The Bible does not teach anywhere that the wicked will at any time be "wiped out", "cease to exist". If there are Scriptures that do say this, then I would like to see them.

I simply point you to the plain meaning of the words, death, perish, etc. that are all over the New Testament that describe the ultimate end of humans who rebel against God.

I think it is also important to consider Isaiah 66 (previously quoted) where the wicked are corpses and being consumed by worms and fire, and Malachi 4:1-3

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.​

If the wicked are ashes underfoot, they are not being eternally tormented.

The severity of the punishment of the wicked was in the mind of Jesus, when He said of Judas, "The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born" (Mark 14:21). Jesus says of Judas here, who was about to betray Him, that it was "excellent" if he was never born. Why would He say such a thing, if He knew that one day Judas would cease to exist?

Why wouldn't He?

You seem to think that the eternal destruction of life is not great loss. I think it is dreadful. I know many people who are terrified of death because they do not believe in the promise and Person of Jesus. You may be callous to it, but I am in contact with people every day who do everything they can to avoid dying because they can barely deal with their fear of not existing.

The biggest problem with "annihilationism", is the fact that the Christ-rejecting wicked already believe that after they die, that is it. As Paul says "eat, drink for tomorrow we die", is the motto of the unsaved world.

It was the motto of the Epicurians that Paul faced, and hedonists of every age, but they are trying to talk themselves out of their terror. Paul had much better success with the Stoics and others who lived in reality.

This form of punishment is not what the Bible over and over teaches, that it will be WITHOUT END. No fires going out because of a shortage of fuel, or because there was not enough fuel to burn forever. This is wishful thinking with fatal consequences.

With all due respect - and I mean that - you are simply making an assertion. Do your homework. Go check the arguments over at Rethinking Hell. Read the Bible carefully considering that my point of view is possible and look to see if it makes sense.

I came to this position over the course of about 20 years, simply paying attention to what the scripture teaches (and doesn't teach) after being struck by the plain assertion in Revelation 20:14 that the lake of fire is "the second death." That got me thinking about whether or not the death continued to be conscious in the lake of fire. I thought I would be able to answer that easily. I could find no real evidence for it that didn't eventually fail. About five years ago I decided that I could not be faithful to the scripture and assert that the unredeemed face eternal conscious torment. Shortly after that time, I found "Rethinking Hell" and realized that it was a helpful resource in explaining the position that I had already discovered on my own.

I encourage you to be faithful to scripture and seriously study the issue. Since you raised the question, you obviously have some interest. Perhaps the Spirit is prodding you to reconsider your beliefs.

 

[Baptist Believer]

So you are equating punishment in hell to annihilation?

You are using the word "hell" and I don't know what you mean. There are several words translated as hell in popular English translations, so I can't respond to that.

My assertion is that those who are cast into the lake of fire eventually perish in an eternal sense. It is truly the "second death" (Revelation 20:14).

 

[TCassidy]

I suggest to you that John is using a Hebrew idiom to indicate total destruction,

That is certainly a possibility.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Please correct any mistakes you may find. I am better with Greek than Hebrew, but know that I am no scholar, and always welcome anyone to show my mistakes. If you can please take the time to point any errors, I would appreciate it, Thanks God bless, Andy

I like your attitude.

I'm not a Greek scholar myself, but I am comfortable with the language tools. I too am open to correction.

 

[Happy]

In speaking of eternal punishment if we are going to say that it is only for a duration then we must also hold that eternal life is also only for a duration in order to be consistent and credible.

Everything must be put into context.

Scripture reveals knowledge about ALL of Gods creations, however ALL Scripture does not apply to ALL of Gods creations. When one is attempting to APPLY what is NOT APPLICABLE, the understanding thereof is moot.

Eternal punishment for who? Mankind or Angelic hosts?
Angelic hosts that are fallen, are spirits and do not die, but do exist forever in tormenting flame separated from God.

Rev 14
[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

"The smoke" of "their" (fallen spirit beings who never die) torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.

and "they" (fallen angels) have no rest day nor night, "WHO" (fallen angels) worship the beast and his image.

and (additionally in application to mankind) "WHOSOEVER" (mankind) who recieveth the mark of his name......WHAT about them?

Scripture already tells us about humans WHO reject God. They do not receive an eternal living spirit. (ie born again) Their soul does not become restored (ie saved). Their body does not become sanctified and justified to be raised and changed. They shall drink of the cup of Gods WRATH and become tormented in the PRESENCE of...

Rev 14
[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

The holy angels and the Lamb do not remain in hell, thus he (mankind) is not continuously tormented with fire and brimstone.

AFTER judgement all life of the (unrestored) man shall return to God (since ALL life belong to Him who IS Life) and the body's and souls of those humans in standing against God, shall have their body's and souls DESTROYED in the lake of fire. (not eternally existing as with "spirits"...but as scripture says, destroyed).

 

[Baptist Believer]

You claim to be faithful to scripture...

I would appreciate it if you would not make false claims. This is exactly why so many of us have trouble interacting with you. You speak lies and distortions against others and then claim you are the victim when you are corrected. It's time to grow up.

...yet reject lordship salvation...

Who said (other than you) that I reject Lordship Salvation? I don't think I've ever written that.

Now I don't think Lordship Salvation position is a complete gospel, but if my only two choices are the Lordship Salvation position or the Free Grace position, I am unreservedly in the Lordship Salvation camp.

But both of those positions focus only on what it takes to deal with sin, not the bigger question of the Kingdom of God. The true "gospel according to Jesus" is the gospel of the Kingdom ("Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand."). I maintain that it is something beyond what MacArthur focuses on.

...and the way of the Master.

This stupid accusation really irritates me. I follow in the way of the Master each day.

Apparently you can't tell the difference between the way of the Master (Jesus) and the "Way of the Master" evangelism method. Because I walk in the way of Jesus, I need to reject the falsely named, "Way of the Master" evangelism method.

 

[AndyMartin]

Okay.
Deu 33:27 The eternal God is thy dwelling place . . .

Eternal: קדם (qedem) Before time.

Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

Eternal: עולם (‛ôlâm) Time unthinkable (out of mind)


Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Eternal: αιωνιον (aiōnion) Perpetual

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Eternal: αιδιος (aidios) Everduring (everlasting).

Thanks for taking the time to explain. What you have said I already know. However, the point that I am making is, that none of the words in either Hebrew or Greek, strictly mean "eternal, time out of mind". On consulting with the lexicons of Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius, Arndt and Gingrich, Thayer, Liddell and Scott, etc, examples can be found for each word, where their usage does not denote "eternal". If they can be used in a limited sense, for a simple "duration", like "old times", or "years ahead", etc, then it can be argued, as it is, that their meaning for "hell", does not necessarily , mean, "time without end". No doubt Evangelical, Bible-believing Christians will accept that it does mean "time without end", but this would be because of our understanding of what the Bible teaches, rather than what the words mean, as their meanings are not 100% definite. Likewise, to those who reject the Bible's teaching on "eternal punishment", as in "without end", could also appeal to the uses of these same words, where their meanings do show that they do not always support, "without end". My point being, that it is not enough to argue from meanings of words, especially when their usages are not consistent.

 

[AndyMartin]

Everything must be put into context.

Scripture reveals knowledge about ALL of Gods creations, however ALL Scripture does not apply to ALL of Gods creations. When one is attempting to APPLY what is NOT APPLICABLE, the understanding thereof is moot.

Eternal punishment for who? Mankind or Angelic hosts?
Angelic hosts that are fallen, are spirits and do not die, but do exist forever in tormenting flame separated from God.

Rev 14
[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

"The smoke" of "their" (fallen spirit beings who never die) torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.

and "they" (fallen angels) have no rest day nor night, "WHO" (fallen angels) worship the beast and his image.

and (additionally in application to mankind) "WHOSOEVER" (mankind) who recieveth the mark of his name......WHAT about them?

Scripture already tells us about humans WHO reject God. They do not receive an eternal living spirit. (ie born again) Their soul does not become restored (ie saved). Their body does not become sanctified and justified to be raised and changed. They shall drink of the cup of Gods WRATH and become tormented in the PRESENCE of...

Rev 14
[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

The holy angels and the Lamb do not remain in hell, thus he (mankind) is not continuously tormented with fire and brimstone.

AFTER judgement all life of the (unrestored) man shall return to God (since ALL life belong to Him who IS Life) and the body's and souls of those humans in standing against God, shall have their body's and souls DESTROYED in the lake of fire. (not eternally existing as with "spirits"...but as scripture says, destroyed).

Am I reading this right? It appears to me that you are saying that in the end, ALL humans, whether they have repented of their sins, and accepted Jesus Christ as their personal saviour, or not, will be in heaven? Is this correct? Do you believe that there will be any people in hell at all, and is their any eternal suffering for those who reject the God of the Holy Bible? thanks

 

[AndyMartin]

Matthew 25:64

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Here we have in the same verse, the Greek "αἰώνιος" (eternal) used for both, "punishment", for the wicked, and "life", for the righteous. There can be no doubt that both the uses of "αἰώνιος" are the same in their meaning here. If we were to place a limit on the "duration" of the former use, then we must do also for the latter. I know of no Scripture which says that the time the saved spend with God, will be limited in any way. That it will be "without end", is taught in many places in the Bible. In which case, for the purpose of doing justice to what Jesus says here, and to a correct understanding of the words, it is only right that we conclude that both uses of "αἰώνιος" have the same force, "without end". Only those who wish to argue for their own thinking, and not agree with what the Bible teaches, will still contend for a difference in meaning. These should be ignored as divisive.

However, I think that there could be a problem in how we are to understand the meaning of the word "punishment" as used here. The Greek is "κόλασις", which, according to the definitions given in our standard Greek lexical authorities, denotes, "chastisement, correction, penalty", with also the meaning of "punish". In 2 Peter 2:9, the Greek "κολάζω" which has the meaning, "chastisement, correction", as well as "divine retribution, punish". Again, the meanings of the words suit both those who hold to "eternal punishment", as in "without end"; and those who reject the wicked will "suffer forever".

I am interested in feedback on this. thanks

 

[JonC]

You claim to be faithful to scripture yet reject lordship salvation and the way of the Master.

There are plenty of people who are faithful to Scripture yet find TWOTM problematic. We spoke in the past of John MacArthur's concerns with the method, but I don't think you view MacArthur as unfaithful to Scripture. While I disagree with baptist believer about Hell (the verse he provides does say that Hades and death will be cast into the "Lake of Fire" but it does not include "and destroyed"), it is not fair to consider him unfaithful to Scripture because he does not use an evangelistic method (which many find problematic) or because he does not hold your view of LS.

 

[AndyMartin]

There are plenty of people who are faithful to Scripture yet find TWOTM problematic. We spoke in the past of John MacArthur's concerns with the method, but I don't think you view MacArthur as unfaithful to Scripture. While I disagree with baptist believer about Hell (the verse he provides does say that Hades and death will be cast into the "Lake of Fire" but it does not include "and destroyed"), it is not fair to consider him unfaithful to Scripture because he does not use an evangelistic method (which many find problematic) or because he does not hold your view of LS.

I don't know why Lordship Salvation is even being discussed here, as this is not the issue under consideration, and distracts from the main topic

 

[JonC]

When we look at the nature of Hell (a temporary “punishment” verses an eternal state of judgment) what are the reasons that color our interpretation in rejecting the other position?

I don’t understand the logic of punishing someone with such a severe torment and then destroying them. This seems to serve no sense of justness at all. Likewise, mere destruction does not seem to address the will of men in active rebellion against God (the lost are not mistakes to be scrapped, but living souls that freely chose to rebel against their Creator). But if I look at Hell as centered on God, rather than man, then I come out with a picture of Hell that is an expression of God’s judgment and one that must be eternal – not as a “punishment” but as a state of existence in consequence of sin.

 

[AndyMartin]

When we look at the nature of Hell (a temporary “punishment” verses an eternal state of judgment) what are the reasons that color our interpretation in rejecting the other position?

I don’t understand the logic of punishing someone with such a severe torment and then destroying them. This seems to serve no sense of justness at all. Likewise, mere destruction does not seem to address the will of men in active rebellion against God (the lost are not mistakes to be scrapped, but living souls that freely chose to rebel against their Creator). But if I look at Hell as centered on God, rather than man, then I come out with a picture of Hell that is an expression of God’s judgment and one that must be eternal – not as a “punishment” but as a state of existence in consequence of sin.

Hi Jon, what you say is very interesting. can I please ask for some clarification? When you say, "then I come out with a picture of Hell that is an expression of God’s judgment and one that must be eternal – not as a “punishment” but as a state of existence in consequence of sin". Are you saying that "hell" is a Just "punishment" by God for the wicked lost, and that the form of the "punishment", need not be "suffering"? thanks

 

[JamesL]

No, you are conflating two different doctrines here. Purgatory, to an English speaking Catholic, is not hell. In fact, John Paul II went so far to say that those in Purgatory are those who "in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house. Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude."

Hell, on the other hand, is not Purgatory but the infinite playing out of the choices people have made in temporal existence.

"This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: "To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell.'

"'Eternal damnation', therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God's judgement ratifies this state."

I agree. The gist of their view:

Purgatory is to cleansed saved folks
Everyone in Purgatory will move from there to Heaven.
No one in Purgatory will ever go to Hell

 

[JamesL]

I think many people don't consider the difference between Time and Eternity

When we see the phrase forever and ever, we are thinking of time wandering endlessly

But I believe eternity is outside of time. eternity is "forever now" which we cannot fathom

I believe the torment of Hell will only last a moment, but it will be a moment that never ends

 

[JonC]

Hi Jon, what you say is very interesting. can I please ask for some clarification? When you say, "then I come out with a picture of Hell that is an expression of God’s judgment and one that must be eternal – not as a “punishment” but as a state of existence in consequence of sin". Are you saying that "hell" is a Just "punishment" by God for the wicked lost, and that the form of the "punishment", need not be "suffering"? thanks

Hey brother. No,and I apologize for my lack of clarity. It's early and I'm reading this while doing other things at work.

I am saying that I believe Hell is best viewed as a consequence of sin rather than a punishment (in terms of a father punishing a child, or maybe even a court system punishing a criminal). I do believe it is an eternal torment (that the lost will be resurrected to an eternal death). But instead of looking at Hell as a punishment for the lost, I think to best to consider it God's judgment on sin. As such, I believe it must be of eternal duration (just as God's mercy and grace is of eternal duration).

 

[AndyMartin]

I agree. The gist of their view:

Purgatory is to cleansed saved folks
Everyone in Purgatory will move from there to Heaven.
No one in Purgatory will ever go to Hell

Hi James, can you provide a single verse from the entire Holy Bible that refers to "purgatory"? It matters not one bit if the "pope" or anyone other "authority" says that this place actually exists. We MUST base our understanding on the Infallible, Inerrant Word of Almighty God ALONE.

 

[JamesL]

Hi James, can you provide a single verse from the entire Holy Bible that refers to "purgatory"? It matters not one bit if the "pope" or anyone other "authority" says that this place actually exists. We MUST base our understanding on the Infallible, Inerrant Word of Almighty God ALONE.

Did you see where I wrote "THEIR" view?