To me it is a perplexng problem. Jesus identified the people he was talking to in the sermon on the mount when he said, "Ye are the salt of the earth" and "ye are the light of the world". I can't find anywhere later in the discourse where he changes the group he is talking to and says to this same identified group in chapter 7, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." It appears only few of the salt and light group enter the straight gate. Jesus seems to echo this when he is straight out asked "Lord are there few that be saved?" and Jesus' response again is to, "Strive to enter in at the straight gate". I'm sorry but to me striving is not grace and again Jesus appears to say few are able to strive enough to enter. This seems to contradict what was told to Abraham when he was told his decendants, the children of faith, would be as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand at the seashore. It cannot be both "many" and "few" at the same time so Jesus must be talking about something other than being a child of God, which we know is totally by grace, here he is talking about something that must be strived for and the child of God may miss. Indeed he seems to imply most will miss it. The ones who miss it end up in "destruction". Since I believe that every spiritual child of Abraham, which are many, will be in heaven without the loss of one just what does it mean for these people identified as salt and light to wind up in destruction? I have my own answer but I've run out of time right now to post it and I'll try to get back on later
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Hell: Which View is The Bible One?
- Thread starter AndyMartin
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Simple terms for a natural mans understanding?
Torment is not enjoyable. A man will NOT enjoy hell.
Simple terms for a spiritual understanding?
Already did.....I can tell you again, but I can not understand it for you.
It is the living soul of the unbelieving (not the physically dead body) that experiences an existence in hell.
THAT living soul, IN HELL, has ALL the senses the physical body has....smell, touch, hearing, speaking, feeling, knowledge, etc.
THAT living soul, is separated FROM God.
THAT living soul, is in a place (hell) that has NOT the beauty and comforts of the earths surface.
THAT living soul, WILL comprehend "they were wrong" in not believing.
You may have chosen a BETTER word to describe, total separation from God, AND total separation from Gods beauty and pleasures and blessings, AND knowing your choices were wrong, AND knowing you have no way to reconcile unto God, AND knowing that you may experience and endure those conditions for a VERY LONG time......However Scripture calls it TORMENT.
And so what? You call it an excuse. I call it me giving a general overview that relates to numerous scriptures that a MAN familiar with the basics of Scripture, particularly a MAN calling himself a Reverend, should be more than familiar with, which does not require me to give you every scriptural reference.
* note- I can always tell when someone has not the ability to argue a point, because they are not capable of quoting something they wish to challenge. They simply talk FOR the other then attempt to disagree with their OWN words. Then whine they have been personally attacked.
I spoke and was VERY CLEAR....if you want to disagree with me....PICK A POINT and QUOTE ME, then I will address your point.
You telling me what I think ....is irrelevant.
You whining about being attacked as you get your little digs in ....is irrelevant.
Truth is; you have only criticized the WHOLE of what I said, and I already picked one point and showed scripture verified what I said.
Truth is; you have yet to point out ONE SINGLE thing I said you disagree with; so thus I hear your responses as la la la la la la la ...irrelevant.
Well.............good luck with that.
Agree
Disagree and why.
God extends "His Grace" toward men He finds favor in.
God "finds favor in" those whom God "FINDS GRACE in the man".
A man WHOM strives, doesn't give up, seeks, is diligent in trusting, believing, following after the Word of God, IS a man WHOM God finds Grace in the man.
Scriptural example;
The disgust that the Lord was SEEING in the world.
The contemplating of the Lord to DESTROY man.
The.....oh.....BUT one man was NOT like the rest of the world.
The.....oh.....shall that man be DESTROYED?
The revealing of what the Lord SAW in this one man....
Gen.6
[1] And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
[2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
[4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
[5] And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
[6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
[8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
The revealing is God seeks to SEE the grace IN a man. A man who trusts, believes, follows after the Lord, becomes the man God will extent "His" Grace "to".
And further we FIND, Noah was saved from the destruction of that which became the fate of the men that grieved Gods heart, and whom He destroyed.
Agree.
Disagree.
It can and is.
You have already IDENTIFIED the difference. "child of God" and "child of Abraham".
Do you understand the difference AND know what makes them similar, but not the SAME?
Thanks but no thanks. I don't rely on "luck". I have the Truth, which I speak in service to my Lord.
You have every opportunity to hear/read what I write and challenge any specific thing I say which you do not agree with, however we both know you have not done that.
Jesus says it best....
John.3
- [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
JB: Everlasting may be speaking generally and not specific to the human condition. After all, Satan and his minions will be punished indefinitely.
I'll try and complete mmy thought from earlier. As I mentioned Jesus seems to me to be telling those he identifies as salt and light (children of God) to enter in at the straight gate and avoid "destruction".
In Revelation 20: 11-15 it says,
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
I've asked a good number of pastors throughout the years to give me just there unrehearsed simple version of what they think is going on here. Without exception they have all replied along the lines of how I have seen it. That this is a description of the final judgement. Death, Hell, and the sea give up the dead that are in them and all stand before God. Books are opened, some of works and the other the book of life. The dead are judged by their works and nobody passes that judgement, all are found guilty but the book of life is also checked, not a book of works but of grace and the names of some are found written in it and some are not found in it. Whoever is not found written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire.
I always agree with the interpretation but then I ask a question. The dead that were found in the book of life, where were they before this judgement? If they were in heaven and only the unjust in hell this seems a bit anticlimactic. People are brought out of heaven, reunited with their bodies and then stand at this judgement knowing they are going right back to heaven. The wicked are taken out of hell in the same way knowing they are going right back to Hell. Then I noticed that the verses say, "Death and Hell were thrown into the lake of fire." Preceeding this it had sad death and hell gave up the dead that were in them. From the verses it appears that the first time people are cast into the lake of fire is after this judgement. Before that they were somewhere else one of which is called Hell. Could it be that Hell is not eternal but a place of punishment until the final judgement? After the final judgement Hell is destroyed, cast into the lake of fire which is eternal. Could this be the destruction Jesus warns children of God about? Could it be where the broad path leads? It would certainly make more sense with the narrative in Revelations 20. People standing at this final judgement not certain where they are going to end up. Having there deeds witness against them and only by grace are they saved by their names being found in the book of life. It would also explain Jesus' teaching where he warns children of God, those identified as salt of the earth and lights of the world, that if their eye or hand causes them to leave the narrow path and fall into the broad one that it would be better for them to cut off their hand and pluck out their eye then have their whole body cast into Hell. If they are written in the book of life they shall be saved in the end but though as by fire. It certainly seems to answer a lot of questions about difficult passages such as these and others but I know it also sounds a bit like purgatory so who knows.
In Revelation 20: 11-15 it says,
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
I've asked a good number of pastors throughout the years to give me just there unrehearsed simple version of what they think is going on here. Without exception they have all replied along the lines of how I have seen it. That this is a description of the final judgement. Death, Hell, and the sea give up the dead that are in them and all stand before God. Books are opened, some of works and the other the book of life. The dead are judged by their works and nobody passes that judgement, all are found guilty but the book of life is also checked, not a book of works but of grace and the names of some are found written in it and some are not found in it. Whoever is not found written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire.
I always agree with the interpretation but then I ask a question. The dead that were found in the book of life, where were they before this judgement? If they were in heaven and only the unjust in hell this seems a bit anticlimactic. People are brought out of heaven, reunited with their bodies and then stand at this judgement knowing they are going right back to heaven. The wicked are taken out of hell in the same way knowing they are going right back to Hell. Then I noticed that the verses say, "Death and Hell were thrown into the lake of fire." Preceeding this it had sad death and hell gave up the dead that were in them. From the verses it appears that the first time people are cast into the lake of fire is after this judgement. Before that they were somewhere else one of which is called Hell. Could it be that Hell is not eternal but a place of punishment until the final judgement? After the final judgement Hell is destroyed, cast into the lake of fire which is eternal. Could this be the destruction Jesus warns children of God about? Could it be where the broad path leads? It would certainly make more sense with the narrative in Revelations 20. People standing at this final judgement not certain where they are going to end up. Having there deeds witness against them and only by grace are they saved by their names being found in the book of life. It would also explain Jesus' teaching where he warns children of God, those identified as salt of the earth and lights of the world, that if their eye or hand causes them to leave the narrow path and fall into the broad one that it would be better for them to cut off their hand and pluck out their eye then have their whole body cast into Hell. If they are written in the book of life they shall be saved in the end but though as by fire. It certainly seems to answer a lot of questions about difficult passages such as these and others but I know it also sounds a bit like purgatory so who knows.
Calv1
Active Member
If you want to know the BIBLICAL VIEW, it's number one. The line "A general tension has developed....." is simply false, perhaps with non-believers, but not with true, Regenerated Christians, for we believe what we don't understand, it's called "FAITH". What IS a real problem in these days of liberalism, is to suggest that because God is love, therefore He is not JUST, this is false, and shows, once again, a fundamental lack of the character or God.
If there were a mass murderer in a village who killed hundreds of men, women, and children, and he's caught, he's put before the magistrate, and the magistrate says "Well you know I'm just so loving, so caring, I'm going to let this man go unpunished, he's free to continue in his rebellion against me and you", N
NE would call him just, or loving, so why is it when we have rebels who daily commit cosmic treason against a infinite God, God's hands are somehow tied by unrighteous, ungodly men who want a god only in their image? Really pathetic
Calv1
Active Member
Wrong, Jesus is using that verse to illustrate a point, He's not using it word for word, same meaning, how could you come up with that? In the NT Jesus uses SYMBOLS, but as RC Sproul and others have so eloquently pointed out, Symbols don't point to a better reality, but a worse reality, if I say "I've been through Hell today", you know what I mean. Likewise if I say to my wife "You are the light of my life", she knows what I mean, not that she is a literal light, rather without her I'd have no life. Jesus used the WORST SYMBOLS to explain what happens after the grave, Prison, Darkness, Torment, Fire and Brimstone, these symbols don't point to a holiday, they point to something TERRIBLE, and the first century Christians, as have the rest of us, understand what He's saying, even in the parable, and I reckon it's a parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the main point still stands, it's understood throughout scripture that the righteous will have eternal life with God, and the wicked eternal punishment away from God, AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB AND THE HOLY ANGELS.
I implore you people, here what scripture teaches "lean NOT unto your own understanding, but trust in the Lord", so many on these forums using the term "Christian" who ONLY LEAN UNTO THEIR OWN UNDERSTANDING, they cannot be called Christians. The doctrine of eternal punishment is a hard one for anyone to swallow, I admit it makes sense, we look around us, our "Loving God is still here, yet we see Hell like situations all over the world", so why is it so hard to swallow that God is just in the next life?
It's just so sad, doesn't matter the topic, I see two camps, one who lean into their own understanding "Oh I don't understand how God can ordain all things", and others "I trust God when He says He ordains all things", or pick the topic, two camps, one are true Christians who believe God whether it makes sense or not "Abraham, take the child you love, and sacrifice him to Me", Abraham was a believer, he didn't say "My God is loving, I won't do it, that makes no sense", no what does it say "Abraham got up, and took the boy....". so that is the dividing line, two camps, one that accepts what God teaches about Himself, others making a god of their own image, since the latter have been exposed to light I'm not sure there is much reason to preach or teach.
If you want to know the BIBLICAL VIEW, it's number one. The line "A general tension has developed....." is simply false, perhaps with non-believers, but not with true, Regenerated Christians, for we believe what we don't understand, it's called "FAITH". What IS a real problem in these days of liberalism, is to suggest that because God is love, therefore He is not JUST, this is false, and shows, once again, a fundamental lack of the character or God.
If there were a mass murderer in a village who killed hundreds of men, women, and children, and he's caught, he's put before the magistrate, and the magistrate says "Well you know I'm just so loving, so caring, I'm going to let this man go unpunished, he's free to continue in his rebellion against me and you", N
Thou art the man.
David?
And Saul was consenting unto his death.
Paul?
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you:
Did they change, what they were? Or are they? These two whom God was going to use in their lifetime.
Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
AndyMartin
Active Member
So, are the sufferings of the wicked in hell, also "symbolic"?
AndyMartin
Active Member
In the New Testament, there are three Greek words that are translated as "hell" in our English bibles.
1. Ἅιδης" (hades), which is a "place of departed spirits", and used in passages like Luke 16:23, in the account of the rich man and Lazarus. In verse 24 we read the rich man say that he was "tormented in this flame", which shows that it is a place of of "ongoing conscious suffering" (which is seen in the word "ὀδυνῶμαι=suffering", in the present continuous tense).
2. "ταρταρόω" (tartaroo), "he name of a subterranean region", which is only used once in 2 Peter 2:4, where it is used for the "fallen angels", who are kept there till their "judgement".
3. "γέεννα" (geenna), which is used in places like Mark 9:43-44, "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Where the "fire is never extinguished", and called "the lake of fire" in Revelation 20, which is called "the second death". It is interesting to note, that in Revelation 19:20, the "beast and false prophet" were thrown into "the lake of fire" (γέεννα). Then in 20:10 we read, "and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.". Which is after the 1000 years, and the "beast and the false prophet" are still in "γέεννα". The word "are" is in italics as it is not part of the Greek text, but has been added as the Greek, "βασανισθήσονται" (lit, "they are tormented"), is in the plural number.
In regard to Jesus quoting Isaiah 66:24, word for word, you wrote:
(2) Jesus is talking about God's judgment. Isaiah 66:24 is talking about God's judgment.
(3) Jesus does not reinterpret the passage for us from its straightforward meaning in Isaiah.
If you think that both Jesus and the scriptures are authoritative, how can you come up with any other interpretation except to take Isaiah 66 seriously in its own context? There is not inherent contradiction between what Jesus teaches and what Isaiah teaches.
You need to consider whether or not you can claim to be trusting in the LORD or should be identifying as Christian if you are not willing to seriously deal with what scripture teaches, regardless of the consequences.
(1) He IS quoting it word for word.
(2) Jesus is talking about God's judgment. Isaiah 66:24 is talking about God's judgment.
(3) Jesus does not reinterpret the passage for us from its straightforward meaning in Isaiah.
If you think that both Jesus and the scriptures are authoritative, how can you come up with any other interpretation except to take Isaiah 66 seriously in its own context? There is not inherent contradiction between what Jesus teaches and what Isaiah teaches.
Sometimes. But most of the time Jesus is quite straightforward.
Sure, but the meaning is quite plain in Isaiah 66. It is a distortion of the meaning to pretend that the ones that the worms and fire is acting upon are conscious since the text explicitly states that they have been slain AND they are corpses. That is the context for the teaching of Jesus. We don't get to change scripture to fit our pet doctrines.
In other words, if one disagrees with your pronouncement here they are not trusting in the LORD and "cannot be called Christians."
You need to consider whether or not you can claim to be trusting in the LORD or should be identifying as Christian if you are not willing to seriously deal with what scripture teaches, regardless of the consequences.
Why are you trying to make an emotional appeal? Let's deal with scripture.
I suggest that you not make a god in your own image, but instead, take a close look at the scripture and avoid condemning others doing the same thing.
Who knows how many sermons I have heard on hell and the Lake of Fire. Most of them are written by simple men for simple minds. Hell is a real place. Most get that. This is why most mini sermons about hell are so irritating.
The purpose of most of these talks is to scare someone to the front of the church during invitation time, the exact opposite of coming to salvation. Have you ever noticed the content usually? It is darkness, the worm does not die, gnashing of teeth, and of course, the number one, fire, fire and more fire. You are going to burn, burn, burn. That also totally misses the message. Notice all these elements They are all physical. All can be seen in this world. There is not one thought given to the spiritual aspect of this. Oh yes and you will be thirsty.
The best example I can think of is Christ before and on the cross. Christ experienced physical pain that none of us can imagine, which is the physical part. The real punishment came when God the Father turned His face away from His Son and put the entire load of sins on Him. Beyond the physical pain, 100 on a chart to 10, there are not words in our language to describe what our Savior felt at that agonizing moment. The best I can come up with is spiritual agony. I would dare say it is so horrible that one wonders if He even noticed the physical pan at that point.
So this brings me back to hell and the Lake of Fire. The real torture will be your payment for your sin. It will be a separation so deep, a hopelessness like one never felt, sorrow beyond word, etc ,etc........That is the punishment of hell, spiritual agony so intense, the fire will be the least of ones problems.
OUTSTANDING POST!
I totally agree with your emphasis on 'audience relevance' for this text.
Hello Farmer Ed,
First your translation uses "hell" to translate two very different Greek words, Hades and Gehenna.
As noted above Hades is the place the spirits of the lost are taken at physical death, This is a place of torment. But what happens to the physical bodies of the lost? They decay either in the sea, or in the grave. I think in Revelation, the grave is personified as Death. Therefore when the sea and Death give up the "dead" I think this refers to the bodies of the lost, and when Hades gives up the dead, this I think refers to the spirits of the lost. At the resurrection of the lost, the spirits are united with the unglorified bodies, and thus the lost are seen "standing" before the Great White Throne. Not a single one of these are found in the Lamb's book of life, they all go into the Lake of Fire (apparently located in Gehenna).
Next the "children of God" is a phrase used to refer to different groups, one of which is those born anew saved folks whose names have been written in the Lambs book of life. In this context, none of them are with the lost, they have been made holy and without blemish. Where are those whose names are in the book of life? At Christ's second coming, they were resurrected and joined Christ in the air, and have been with Christ since that moment. They were with Him all through the 1000 year reign on David's throne.
Yes Hades is not said to be eternal, but a temporary holding place until Hades gives up its dead. The Lake of Fire is the permanent eternal place also translated in some translations as "hell." Sorry for the confusion. Get a NASB95.
Heb 10
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The best description for the conditional immortality advocate for "eternal punshment" would be "dying without mercy" and losing conscious existence forever.
If the punishment for violating the Law under Moses was "dying without mercy," yet the punishment for rejecting the blood of Christ is to conceive "how much sorer punishment," how could "dying without mercy" be "much sorer punishment" than..."dying without mercy"?
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The best description for the conditional immortality advocate for "eternal punshment" would be "dying without mercy" and losing conscious existence forever.
If the punishment for violating the Law under Moses was "dying without mercy," yet the punishment for rejecting the blood of Christ is to conceive "how much sorer punishment," how could "dying without mercy" be "much sorer punishment" than..."dying without mercy"?
Baptist Believer in post #18 basically said whet we have read in our own Bibles......
If a truly literal smoke rose forever to remind the saved what they missed, how does this jive with Godly Love? Would a God, who sent His Son to Die for You and Me, keep such a reminder forever in front of the saved?
No way......
If a truly literal smoke rose forever to remind the saved what they missed, how does this jive with Godly Love? Would a God, who sent His Son to Die for You and Me, keep such a reminder forever in front of the saved?
No way......
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