Hello everyone from a church of Christ guy!

[rsr]

Please get back on track. Thank you.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Every crow thinks he is the blackest.

Is that a racial inference? Never mind.

 

[church mouse guy]

No

We have done that which we ought not to have done and we have left undone that which we ought to have done and there is no health in us.

 

[Danthemailman]

Sunday, May 20, 2007
Snake handling on the rise in Baptist churches

"According to a new report, snake handling is on the rise within Baptist churches across the country. The report, released by NAMB this past Tuesday, says that the practice of snake handling as part of Sunday morning worship services has risen in Baptist churches from 2% in 2006 to 17% this spring.

Al Wittner, senior pastor at First Baptist Church of Baton Rouge, LA reported the exciting results of snake handling. According to Wittner, "A few weeks ago, we began with just a few black snakes. The folks in the pews felt a little uneasy at first, but they warmed up to it very quickly. By this past Sunday, we added Rattlers and Copperheads. I think the added dimension of poison really increased interest. We had at least 40% of our members in attendance, which was the highest percentage in years."

NAMB's report also indicates that some churches are planning on adding snake handling as a third ordinance. Along with baptism and the Lord's Supper, snake handling will be a regular part of church gatherings. Pastor Wittner said, "We haven't yet decided whether or not to make snake handling an ordinance. But, if it keeps bringing the lost in through the front doors of the church, we might just have to do so."

That reminds me of a joke that I read on the internet.

Top Ten Ways You Know You're in a Bad Church

10. The church bus has gun racks

9. Staff consists of "Senior Pastor, Associate Pastor, and Socio-Pastor"

8. The Bible they use is the "Dr. Seuss Version"

7. ATM in the lobby

6. Services are B.Y.O.S. -- "Bring Your Own Snake"

5. Choir wearing leather robes

4. No cover charge, but communion is a 2 drink minimum

3. Karaoke worship time

2. Ushers ask "Smoking or Non-Smoking?"

1. The only song the church organist knows is "Innagaddadavita"

Top Ten Ways You Know You're in a Bad Church

 

[Walter]

We have done that which we ought not to have done and we have left undone that which we ought to have done and there is no health in us.

Love this form of confession from the Book of Common Prayer. You a 'closet' Anglican?

 

[church mouse guy]

Love this form of confession from the Book of Common Prayer. You a 'closet' Anglican?

Thanks! Just a few years long ago. They have lost millions of members by going apostate.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am going to go ahead and toss some things out there that I know have been a point of contention about for a long time.

MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS. Yes, there are those "hard liner" CofC types who claim that there is some sort of biblical justification for acapella music, and I suppose that if you really stretch things, there technically isn't a mention of a musical instrument in the assembly in the NT. Some stick with that. But if you look at CofC history a bit, going back to the Civil War, the lack of pianos/organs in the CofC was more of an economic decision: The south was decimated post war and many of those CoCs simply had no money to buy or replace an expensive instrument.

Later the CoC would split - the Disciples of Christ (DoC) kept the instruments, and the CoC went without. So if you look at the footprint of the DoC and CoC, you find that most DoCs are in the north, most CoCs are in the south. And there are a number of CoCs in the north that do have instruments, and more and more in the south that are adding them.

This isn't a doctrinal issue except for the ignorant and dogmatic. It's really more of a tradition. I am take-it or leave-it on the issue.


COMMUNION. Yes CoCs typically take communion every Sunday, but that's really just following the pattern of the early church. Acts 2:46, "When they came together, they broke bread." Of course, this scripture might or might not be the holy communion, but it's just something CoC follows. But not to the letter: CoC has Wed. night services (and other meetings at the church) where there is no communion. Of course, Jesus said "Do this in remembrance of me," so CoC does it every Sunday. Again, only the most ignorant and dogmatic would claim this to be any sort of deal-breaker for anyone (although I know those types!).


BAPTISM. This is the biggest difference between southern Baptists and Church of Christ. And it boils down to this question: Are you saved before or after you are baptized? Quite honestly, there are strong, well-thought-out lines of thought on BOTH sides of this issue. BOTH denominations place a high priority on baptism. But for the Church of Christ, once you decide you want to become a Christian, it's more of a 5-alarm fire (no pun intended) to get to the water. In the Baptist church, it's all good, wait until baptism Sunday. I don't condemn the Baptists for their line of thinking, because I fully understand it (baptism isn't a work).

But I am personally a bit MORE COMFORTABLE with CofC on the issue, for two reasons: One, the Ethiopian unoch felt an urgency to be baptized immediately. Second, I am not aware of a conversion in the NT without baptism. You just keep bumping into it. Jesus did it, told us to do it, and his last words were "go, tell, and baptize". Are you saved before or after? That's like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Only God saves. But the water piece is important. Baptists place a very high importance on it, and CofC places a matter of urgent importance on it. I don't see it as a salvation issue either way - I've never personally met a Baptist follower of Christ who wasn't baptized.

Now, what DOES bother me...there is a non-denominational mega church here that is doing GREAT things. But I got a bulletin last year in the mail as to their youth evangelism. It said something like "We had 82 people saved this year in the youth; 13 baptisms." To me, something isn't getting taught there that is very important. If not even 15 percent think immersion is important, that's kind of messed up. I don't like it at all.

There is a misconception that baptism can only be performed by a minister, etc. Not true. I baptized both my son and my daughter and I am just a regular guy. I, myself, got re-baptized 5 years ago in my neighbor's hot tub. Not because I didn't feel I was saved beforehand, but because I was 15 years old when I was first baptized and I did it only for peer pressure - I did not give my life to Christ and there was no sincere pledge of good conscience. I just wanted to fix that.

OK guys take your shots!

Is water baptism required in order for one to being saved?

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

Is water baptism required in order for one to being saved?

Salvation is a matter of the heart. If we have a heart for the Lord, we are going to believe on His name and be subject to baptism. Acts 2:38, Peter exhorts "Repent and be baptized, every one of you." He did not say "Repent, and then be baptized if so inclined." Note that baptism is not a work, or he would have said "Go and baptize yourself." Baptism is something that we must be subjected to - a symbolic death, burial, and resurrection per the apostle Peter - of Jesus' own death burial, and resurrection.

So as to your question, if not being baptized is a matter of believing and not yet having an opportunity, no. God doesn’t play games. But if it’s a matter of supposedly believing and then not proceeding out of pride or obstinacy, then let’s just say that I would not want to be facing God with that, as it would appear that I wasn’t “all in” or that I was playing my own game with God.

Baptism is very important:

1. Jesus began his ministry by being baptized.
2. Every New Testament conversion is accompanied by baptism, and there was a sense of urgency to it.
3. Baptism is mentioned over 100 times through the NT.
4. Before He ascended, Jesus said “Go, tell, and baptize” (paraphrase).

That said, it isn’t my place to say whether or not a person is saved. Only God knows the heart. But if the heart says "I will not be baptized...", how sincere is the heart?

The flip side is that we can focus so much on the water that we ignore the heart. Equally dangerous.

 

[Yeshua1]

Salvation is a matter of the heart. If we have a heart for the Lord, we are going to believe on His name and be subject to baptism. Acts 2:38, Peter exhorts "Repent and be baptized, every one of you." He did not say "Repent, and then be baptized if so inclined." Note that baptism is not a work, or he would have said "Go and baptize yourself." Baptism is something that we must be subjected to - a symbolic death, burial, and resurrection per the apostle Peter - of Jesus' own death burial, and resurrection.

So as to your question, if not being baptized is a matter of believing and not yet having an opportunity, no. God doesn’t play games. But if it’s a matter of supposedly believing and then not proceeding out of pride or obstinacy, then let’s just say that I would not want to be facing God with that, as it would appear that I wasn’t “all in” or that I was playing my own game with God.

Baptism is very important:

1. Jesus began his ministry by being baptized.
2. Every New Testament conversion is accompanied by baptism, and there was a sense of urgency to it.
3. Baptism is mentioned over 100 times through the NT.
4. Before He ascended, Jesus said “Go, tell, and baptize” (paraphrase).

That said, it isn’t my place to say whether or not a person is saved. Only God knows the heart. But if the heart says "I will not be baptized...", how sincere is the heart?

The flip side is that we can focus so much on the water that we ignore the heart. Equally dangerous.

Aater baptized is disobeying the Lord, but if have trusted in Jesus to save them, are still saved!

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

Aater baptized is disobeying the Lord, but if have trusted in Jesus to save them, are still saved!

come again on that?

 

[MartyF]

Baptism is very important

The CoC people I have spoken to consider this to be heresy. The 100 or so I have met have emphatically said "Baptism is required for salvation."

They also insist that Baptism by any other means other than full immersion is not sufficient for salvation.

Is this your belief as well?

Or do you believe in the Baptist belief that "Baptism is very important"?

Which one is it?

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

The CoC people I have spoken to consider this to be heresy. The 100 or so I have met have emphatically said "Baptism is required for salvation."

They also insist that Baptism by any other means other than full immersion is not sufficient for salvation.

Is this your belief as well?

Or do you believe in the Baptist belief that "Baptism is very important"?

Which one is it?

Great questions!

Here is where your friends are undoubtedly coming from:

The issue is not the water. There is nothing magical about the water. It is not holy water. Water does not save. God saves.

The water is a symbol of a variety of key things, not the least of which is sharing in the burial and resurrection of Jesus by being subject to baptism. The idea is, if we are true believers and wish to enter into fellowship with Christ, we are going to be subject to a symbol of the same thing that Christ was. If we do not wish to do that, there is something going on in the heart that is preventing full and complete submission, which would then cause someone to say "baptism is required for salvation."

I know of a fellow here who is fairly well-to-do and a few years back when we were at lunch, he asked me if I thought he was saved even though he wasn't baptized. I said "wow that sounds like a loaded question...but if it's eating at you then why don't you just get baptized and then you don't have to ask the question any more?" He said "I just don't want to go through all of that, people around here know me and it's kind of embarrassing." My goodness, what do I say to that? The poor guy, due to his stature, cannot stand the idea of being humbled before the Lord! Is he saved? I HONESTLY HAVE MY DOUBTS!

The Church of Christ places a slightly higher premium on baptism than the Baptist church (ironic given the names of the denominations), because the Church of Christ generally contends that belief and baptism are one phenomenon (and neither of them is a "work" - that's a myth!) They get that from Acts 2:38: "Believe and baptized, all of you". Whereas the Baptist doctrine splits the two things up, and you can do the baptism a bit more at your leisure.

For me, personally, baptism is essential because it represents the other half of Acts 2:38; it's not a baby that I can split for myself. I also teach my kids this way - one of which happily attends a Baptist church I might add.

Having said that, I can't argue against the Baptist view on this, because I have studied it and understand it, and I would not go so far as to say it is in error, just not the emphasis on baptism that I am quite comfortable with. But I could easily attend a Baptist church and be content - there is no such thing as a "perfect" church in which I am going to agree with every detail, and I believe holiness is in the First Baptist Church here. It is a special church that has brought many to Christ.

Both sides, however, have some inherent dangers with their perspectives:

1. The Church of Christ runs the danger of emphasizing being baptized without really addressing the heart. It is so much easier as humans to address externals than internals. We can check off the boxes more easily this way. But it's all about the heart. If we are baptized yet there is no internal change - such as the first time I was baptized at age 15, I might as well have jumped off the diving board at the pool. All I got was wet.

2. The Baptist church runs the risk of sending the message that baptism is optional. "Well, the thief on the cross wasn't baptized." Yes, but you're not exactly the thief on the cross. When we skip baptism, it's because we don't want to humble ourselves and be subject to that, and I think that is a heart matter that in fact COULD be a salvation issue.

Finally, on immersion, I do believe that this is the only proper way to be baptized, because remember, baptism is a symbol of burial and resurrection. Being in the water is akin to being in the grave, and being lifted out of the water is akin to resurrection. Is a sprinkle good enough? Well, did they sprinkle in the New Testament? And if sprinkling is enough, will a spray mist do the trick? A small aerosol on the neck and call it good? If I did the Ice Bucket challenge once, would that work? Anyone can play "what if" games with all sorts of scenarios. It's a slippery slope.

I think the key is for the CoC and the Baptists to agree to disagree on the zigs and zigs of baptism and move on down the road of Christian service together. Both organizations I believe are biblically sound and averse to pop culture's infiltration into our churches. Our church has an incredibly close relationship with First Baptist Church. We do local missions together quite a lot. Our pastors meet frequently. We also worship together once or twice a year. Their pastor will preach at our church, and vice versa. There is a tremendous mutual respect and it's beautiful to see.

 

[church mouse guy]

One can make water holy by boiling the never mind out of it.

 

[Danthemailman]

When I was a teenager, prior to receiving Christ through faith, I had temporarily attended a church of Christ and they taught me that ONLY "their" church is the "true Church" and they quoted Romans 16:16 to support their claim. They also taught salvation by faith + works, with a heavy emphasis on water baptism. It was a friend who invited me to attend there. His Aunt was a very devout member of the church of Christ. I'll never forget several years later running into my friend's Aunt at my friend's daughter's birthday party. Since then, I had received Christ through faith and was now a born again Christian. I shared this good news with his Aunt and the only question that she had for me was, "where do you attend church?" When my answer was not "the church of Christ," she bowed her head in sadness as if to imply that I was still lost because I did not say the church of Christ. Her husband approached me and I shared the good news with him as well that I had received Christ through faith and am now a Christian and he had the same question, "where do you attend church," and when I told him and the answer was not the church of Christ, his eyes glazed over followed by a cheesy legalistic grin on his face and he simply walked away from me and neither of them would speak with me for the rest of the night. I knew that something was terribly wrong! I could hear them over in the corner going on and on about how you must be water baptized to be saved and that ONLY their church (the church of Christ) is the true Church. My friend confirmed to me what I had already discovered for myself about the church of Christ and we both never went back.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

When I was a teenager, prior to receiving Christ through faith, I had temporarily attended a church of Christ and they taught me that ONLY "their" church is the "true Church" and they quoted Romans 16:16 to support their claim. They also taught salvation by faith + works, with a heavy emphasis on water baptism. It was a friend who invited me to attend there. His Aunt was a very devout member of the church of Christ. I'll never forget several years later running into my friend's Aunt at my friend's daughter's birthday party. Since then, I had received Christ through faith and was now a born again Christian. I shared this good news with his Aunt and the only question that she had for me was, "where do you attend church?" When my answer was not "the church of Christ," she bowed her head in sadness as if to imply that I was still lost because I did not say the church of Christ. Her husband approached me and I shared the good news with him as well that I had received Christ through faith and am now a Christian and he had the same question, "where do you attend church," and when I told him and the answer was not the church of Christ, his eyes glazed over followed by a cheesy legalistic grin on his face and he simply walked away from me and neither of them would speak with me for the rest of the night. I knew that something was terribly wrong! I could hear them over in the corner going on and on about how you must be water baptized to be saved and that ONLY their church (the church of Christ) is the true Church. My friend confirmed to me what I had already discovered for myself about the church of Christ and we both never went back.

There is ignorance and sectarianism in the corners of every denomination my friend.

 

[MartyF]

For me, personally, baptism is essential because it represents the other half of Acts 2:38; it's not a baby that I can split for myself. I also teach my kids this way - one of which happily attends a Baptist church I might add.

This is another difference between Baptists and CoC. Most Baptists I know describe Acts as descriptive. The CoC members I know describe Acts as prescriptive.

The Baptist church runs the risk of sending the message that baptism is optional. "Well, the thief on the cross wasn't baptized." Yes, but you're not exactly the thief on the cross. When we skip baptism, it's because we don't want to humble ourselves and be subject to that, and I think that is a heart matter that in fact COULD be a salvation issue.

This is where CoC members I have met have really shown ignorance. How many CoC members died for Baptism? How many were whipped? How many were burned at the stake? How many were exiled? How many had their property confiscated? How many were imprisoned? How many had a third Baptism?

Baptists have spilled blood and treasure for Believer's Baptism and CoC has done diddly. Claiming that Baptists don't put enough emphasis on Baptism is silly especially from a group which benefited from the sacrifice of the Baptists.

Now there are some fringe Baptists which don't put the emphasis they should, but they are a tiny minority which exists primarily because of the Baptist emphasis on local governance of churches.

 

[Walter]

There is ignorance and sectarianism in the corners of every denomination my friend.

So, let me ask you, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Anglicans, are not usually baptized by immersion. If they have repented of their sins and are trusting in Christ shed blood for for their salvation, does CofC teach they are saved? It seems like you are saying some CofC would and some would not.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

So, let me ask you, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Anglicans, are not usually baptized by immersion. If they have repented of their sins and are trusting in Christ shed blood for for their salvation, does CofC teach they are saved? It seems like you are saying some CofC would and some would not.

CofC shouldn't be in the business of saying who is or isn't saved. I think I have laid out the CofC view on baptism pretty well.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

This is another difference between Baptists and CoC. Most Baptists I know describe Acts as descriptive. The CoC members I know describe Acts as prescriptive.



This is where CoC members I have met have really shown ignorance. How many CoC members died for Baptism? How many were whipped? How many were burned at the stake? How many were exiled? How many had their property confiscated? How many were imprisoned? How many had a third Baptism?

Baptists have spilled blood and treasure for Believer's Baptism and CoC has done diddly. Claiming that Baptists don't put enough emphasis on Baptism is silly especially from a group which benefited from the sacrifice of the Baptists.

Now there are some fringe Baptists which don't put the emphasis they should, but they are a tiny minority which exists primarily because of the Baptist emphasis on local governance of churches.

1. I think your term "descriptive" rather than "prescriptive:" is spot on and I've never thought of it that way.

2. None of us has really "done diddly" to earn the sacrifice of Jesus.

3. Nowhere did I state that Baptists don't put enough emphasis on baptism.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

You see, you have been discussing baptism with folks who, for the most part, use the same mode of baptism that your church uses and that you don't know of any Baptist that is not baptized. So you say the issue is really moot. You haven't stated what you think of all these 'illiicit' baptisms. If baptism is 'essential' but not necessary, I am assuming that based on the belief of those members of denominations which practice baptism by pouring over the head, that their baptisms are genuine, and you would conclude that they have a kind of 'baptism of desire'. I'm genuinely asking because the CoC people I have talked to don't even consider them to be part of the Body of Christ because they have neglected to be immersed.

The baptism situation between CofC and Baptist is a moot point for me personally. Opinions on both sides can and do differ.

As for sprinklings, I can't speak for other CofC people. I personally feel they would be in error not being immersed, for reasons that I have discussed. It wouldn't be for me to say whether or not they are part of the Body of Christ. If they feel they are a part of the Body of Christ, that's between them and God. That's not to say I wouldn't attempt to help them see an alternative view on baptism, assuming that I had a relationship that would allow me to do so.