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Hells Nursery
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
webdog said:
Get real, Webdog, Jesus was perfect. He is not exactly the best test case when looking at others, but than again he does prove my point that all other infants are found wanting.
If the shoe fits...maybe we could all use a bit of examination when it comes to our priorities. Anything that is higher than God has taken a position as a god.
Besides, we are all selfish, we all fall short of the glory of God. The sooner you realize that nobody, absolutely nobody is innocent the better off you are going to be.
First the age of accountability is a myth with no basis in fact, merely a sentimentally driven excuse created to cover the gap that the requirement of knowledge in order to be saved created.
To answer your question, where all sinners outside of Christ go. Hell.
There is no part of us that is not affected by sin. We are completely sinful from flesh to soul.
Brother Bob
New Member
Oh, if only we were as innocent as little babies. Those who baptize little ones in no way are as good as the little one they baptize. I like what Jesus said:
"such is the Kingdom of Heaven"
"such is the Kingdom of Heaven"
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Quote:
Ignatius said in 110 AD- "They that are carnal(unbelievers) cannot do the things that are spritual...Nor can the unbelievers do the things of belief."
Would be interested in knowing where this came from so I could read more of what was said there.
HP: Here is the problem with such statements. I might tell you that I ‘cannot’go to the places I did before I was saved. Is this to be taken as it is impossible for me to go there, or that I lack some ability to go there? Absolutely not. I am simply trying to convey the idea that I am totally 'unwilling' to go back to those places, not that I lack ability or that it is impossible to do so.
The same can be said of the statements by Ignatius. From this quote alone it is impossible to come to the conclusion that he believed that men cannot do something other than what they do, or they lack the ‘abilities’ requisite of doing anything different. That is simply reading into his words meanings that may in fact not be implied in the least.
The Apostle John said that believers 'cannot sin.' Does this mean that it is impossible or that they lack the natural ability to sin? I think not, but rather he is only implying that they should be 'totally unwilling' to sin.
Ignatius said in 110 AD- "They that are carnal(unbelievers) cannot do the things that are spritual...Nor can the unbelievers do the things of belief."
Would be interested in knowing where this came from so I could read more of what was said there.
HP: Here is the problem with such statements. I might tell you that I ‘cannot’go to the places I did before I was saved. Is this to be taken as it is impossible for me to go there, or that I lack some ability to go there? Absolutely not. I am simply trying to convey the idea that I am totally 'unwilling' to go back to those places, not that I lack ability or that it is impossible to do so.
The same can be said of the statements by Ignatius. From this quote alone it is impossible to come to the conclusion that he believed that men cannot do something other than what they do, or they lack the ‘abilities’ requisite of doing anything different. That is simply reading into his words meanings that may in fact not be implied in the least.
The Apostle John said that believers 'cannot sin.' Does this mean that it is impossible or that they lack the natural ability to sin? I think not, but rather he is only implying that they should be 'totally unwilling' to sin.
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Hey this may be a first time that we have agreed on something
This was kind of what I was thinking.However our agreement didn't last long
I think John said exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted him to say and that was believers can not sin. The believer's spirit is made alive at the point of salvation by grace through faith. It has gone from darkness to light never to go back again. It has passed from death unto life. This is an irreversable process and because it can not be reversed the spirit is no longer capable of sinning.However the flesh is still in darkness and is still capable of sinning. Paul speaks to this point in saying that it is the flesh that sins and not the person any longer once they are saved. I don't have the reference right off my head, but I'll try to find it.
Brother Bob
New Member
It is the soul that is made alive from a dead state of sin unto a lively Hope in Jesus Christ.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Could this be the reference you are looking for? 1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
FALSE...the Bible says that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. When you are eternally saved it is your spirit that is made alive, because when Adam & Eve fell it was spiritual death that they experienced.
It is your spirit that is dead in trespasses and sin. That's why it says in I Corinthians 2 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
God's Truth is spiritually discerned and therefore one's spirit must be made alive so that one can understand God's Truth.
Again that is incorrect. The body is alive at birth. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. You are fleshly alive and will remain alive until you die. That's why Romans talks so much about not walking in the flesh or not walking after the flesh, becuase the flesh is corrupt and will remain corrupt until we receive our new bodies.
Again the soul is not made alive at the point of eternal salvation, because it is the spirit that is dead. The salvation of the soul can ONLY come into play after the spirit has been made alive, because the salvation of the soul is based on spiritual works. And a person with a dead spirit is incapable of understanding what they must do.
Brother Bob
New Member
Not body for that is still a natural body until the resurrection. It will be sown a natural and raised a Spiritual. You added the body, not me.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Sorry JJ. The reference must be this one. “Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.......... or this one "Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Brother Bob
New Member
Romans, chapter 8
"14": For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Psalms: 23
1: The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2: He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3: He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5: Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6: Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Matthew, chapter 16
"26": For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
1 Peter, chapter 1
9: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Matthew, chapter 22
"37": Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Luke, chapter 21
"19": In your patience possess ye your souls
1 Peter, chapter 1
"22": Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Revelation, chapter 6
"9": And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
and on and on and on!!
"14": For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Psalms: 23
1: The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2: He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3: He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5: Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6: Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Matthew, chapter 16
"26": For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
1 Peter, chapter 1
9: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Matthew, chapter 22
"37": Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Luke, chapter 21
"19": In your patience possess ye your souls
1 Peter, chapter 1
"22": Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Revelation, chapter 6
"9": And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
and on and on and on!!
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Oh Brother Bob here we go with your cherry picking again, but let's deal with the verses you pulled out.
That means that every Christian that is led by the Spirit of God they are the sons of God, but those Christians that aren't led by the Spirit, but led by the flesh are not sons of God, but they are children of God. Children of God and sons of God are two different things contextually.
Brother Bob did you even bother to READ this passage? He restoreth my soul - that means it's an ongoing process that is not completed. The salvation of the soul is an ongoing process that will not be complete until Christ returns.
Again you prove my point for me and yet you are still blind to the Truth. This right here just goes to show that eternal salvation is not what is in view during the Gospels (and even into a good part of Acts).
This was written to believers. If they are saved then why is Peter telling them that at the END of their faith their souls will be saved? That's a point out in the future.
Why? Because their souls aren't save yet and will not be until a point out in the future.
Last time I checked eternal salvation had nothing to do with patience. You either believe and it's done or you don't believe and you are still unsaved. Patience never comes into the picture.
Again the last time I checked eternal salvation had nothing to do with my works. NO WORKS means exactly what it says NO WORKS. Loving the brethren does not equate to eternal salvation. Bob you really are making this way to easy - why can you not see this? You are the one that even copied these Scriptures into the post.
Last time I checked eternal salvation doesn't have anything to do with whether I die for Christ, but rather it's the fact that Christ died for me.
And as you say and on and on and on!! - Care to go anymore?
Brother Bob Scripture just plainly doesn't lay itself out like you have believed for all these years. There is nothing wrong with changing your views to line up with Scripture teaching. I have had to do exactly that myself.
You have the same issue that some of the others that post in this section you have frontloaded words to mean something and when they appear you automatically insert Brother Bob's meaning and context instead of letting the Bible lay out the meanings and context.
That means that every Christian that is led by the Spirit of God they are the sons of God, but those Christians that aren't led by the Spirit, but led by the flesh are not sons of God, but they are children of God. Children of God and sons of God are two different things contextually.
Brother Bob did you even bother to READ this passage? He restoreth my soul - that means it's an ongoing process that is not completed. The salvation of the soul is an ongoing process that will not be complete until Christ returns.
Again you prove my point for me and yet you are still blind to the Truth. This right here just goes to show that eternal salvation is not what is in view during the Gospels (and even into a good part of Acts).
This was written to believers. If they are saved then why is Peter telling them that at the END of their faith their souls will be saved? That's a point out in the future.
Why? Because their souls aren't save yet and will not be until a point out in the future.
Last time I checked eternal salvation had nothing to do with patience. You either believe and it's done or you don't believe and you are still unsaved. Patience never comes into the picture.
Again the last time I checked eternal salvation had nothing to do with my works. NO WORKS means exactly what it says NO WORKS. Loving the brethren does not equate to eternal salvation. Bob you really are making this way to easy - why can you not see this? You are the one that even copied these Scriptures into the post.
Last time I checked eternal salvation doesn't have anything to do with whether I die for Christ, but rather it's the fact that Christ died for me.
And as you say and on and on and on!! - Care to go anymore?
Brother Bob Scripture just plainly doesn't lay itself out like you have believed for all these years. There is nothing wrong with changing your views to line up with Scripture teaching. I have had to do exactly that myself.
You have the same issue that some of the others that post in this section you have frontloaded words to mean something and when they appear you automatically insert Brother Bob's meaning and context instead of letting the Bible lay out the meanings and context.
Brother Bob
New Member
I say one thing for you JJ; you never cease to amaze me! The children of God and the sons of God are different. You say the children of God walk after the flesh. I am guessing that you mean we are all God's children by creation?
Wrong! again. We will dwell in the house of the Lord forever so you see I did read the whole thing.
Wrong! its saying that some put their money above the saving of their soul. I have to say you PROVE my point. Thank you,
Wrong! its saying by Grace are you saved through faith and if you put your faith in action then it will lead you to Grace.
Add to your faith, virtue to virtue knowledge, to knowledge temperance to temperance, patience to patience, Godliness to Godliness, brotherly kindness to brotherly kindness, Charity which is the "love of God". and if these be in you, ye shall never fall.
Only the PURE in heart shall see God.
huh?????
You have studied I will give you that but I think you had an agendy when you started and hunted Scripture to help fit that agenda. If you used to believe like me for God's sake go back!!! before its too late. I don't mind debating and I haven't said anything you agree with yet I don't think but maybe I have sowed some seed that you will at least think about what you are saying. Jesus taught what I teach but no where did He teach what you are advocating.
Don't start going and putting words into my mouth ala BobRyan please. Just stick to what I say and don't add your two bits.
You guess wrong. I am not a universalist as your presume.
When one is saved by grace through faith one is born into the family of God. We are children of God. At that point we get to decide whether or not we will walk by the flesh or if we will walk by the Spirit.
You assume that all Christians WILL walk by the Spirit, which is an unBiblical teaching. Ephesians 2:10 tells us exactly that. And there ore a great deal of other Scriptures that do the same.
If one does not want to walk by the Spirit then they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Inheritance is a matter of sonship. We have an inheritance set out in front of us, but we can be as Esau and sell our inheritance to live/walk in the flesh. And if we do that then as he did we will lose that inheritance.
Bob you crack me up. You quote and bold he resoreth my soul and then talk about where we are going to live. Let's just deal with the bold part. He restoreth my soul. That means He is doing this and the action is not complete, but will be complete at a later time.
You say that when a person is saved that their soul is saved meaning that it is a done deal. That's not the picture that Scripture gives us. Scripture gives us the picture that the saving of the soul is an ongoing process not a one-time event like eternal salvation, which saves the spirit.
Come on Bob. When has the Bible ever said anything about money having anything to do with eternal salvation. Money has nothing to do with eternal salvation. Death and shed blood those are the only two things that are in play in eternal salvation.
Now granted there are some people that value money more than their soul and there are some that value relationships more than their soul and there are some people that value tv, cars, jobs, kids, etc. you fill in the blank more than their souls.
That means that if their life is devoted to those things in the here and now they will lose their soul in the future. If they deny those things and walk in the Spirit now then they will gain their soul in the future.
That is not eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is settled in the here and now. You are either saved or you are not. There is nothing about living for the Lord instead of for self that has to do with eternal salvation. If it did then salvation would be by works and again OUR WORKS play NO PART in salvation. NO WORKS means NO WORKS Bob. Say it with me. NO WORKS. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
Bob that is the one of the most false statements I have ever read in my lifetime. Your works does not lead to grace. God seeks the person out not the other way around.
That statement is so backward it's hard to even comment on.
What you are saying is that a person is able to do a spiritual good work and then that obtain grace. Sorry Bob, but that is just plain false teaching and people should run as far away as they can from you.
Grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and then giving him credit as if he has done it himself. You are saying that man does something in order to obtain God doing something for man.
I sure hope people can see how wrong you are.
Once again Bob these are works and works play no part in salvation. You can read that statement and type that statment and believe that statement as badly as you want to, but the Bible is plain and simple in that man's works play no part in eternal salvation.
Again you aren't even addressing what the Scripture was talking about. You are fading fast Bob.
Bob I said the only thing that matters in eternal salvation is that Christ died in my place and you answer with huh????? That explains everything right there.
Bob Christ died on the cross nearly 2,000 years ago and He shed His precious blood to cover your sins and my sins. If you will place your faith in His substitutionary death and shed blood you can have eternal life Brother Bob. It's that plain and simple.
Brother Bob you couldn't be further from the truth. These teachings actually were directly in opposition to what I grew up believing. It was not until about five months ago that I made a change in my beliefs to line up with Scripture.
I'll be honest I struggled with these teachings at first, because they were so different than what I had been taught, but in the end the Bible wins out if we are honest.
Well I never believed exactly as you do Bob, but my beliefs were quite different, but I can't go back, because Hebrews 6 says that if I go back then I will forfeit my inheritance and I will not be able to rule and reign with Christ and that I will lose my soul.
I pray that I will run the race of faith as Paul did and that at the end of the race I can say as he did that I finished the race.
That statement can't be further from the truth, ESPECIALLY regarding your works based eternal salvation.
Brother Bob
New Member
Don't get smart, it don't suit you.
Just when I thought it couldn't get worse and it did. So we have a choice after Salvation to live in the flesh or Spirit. Boy! you sure have some beliefs.
I am trying to be nice but this is getting weird.
The soul that sinneth shall die.
He restoreth my soul or makes it alive again and guess what in Jesus Christ. "born again" raised to walk a newness of life. And the creature shall be delivered also.
You make weird statements, you reject the Scripture or just say I got it wrong and don't say how. You I think sir are beyond help!!!
I am tired JJ; have a nice day
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You are tired, because it is an awful lot of work trying to keep dancing around Scripture to keep your false doctrines in place.
There's nothing smart about that. Don't put words in my mouth. I will type what I mean and I'll mean what I type. Just deal with what is on the page without putting your twist or assumptions on it.
Bob that is EXACTLY as Scripture says. If you sow in the flesh you will reap corruption, but if you sow in the Spirit you will reap life, according to Galations. Bob why would Paul say this to believers if it wasn't possible for them to sow in the flesh?
Bob if the only thing we can do is walk in the Spirit why would Paul tell us over and over again to walk in the Spirit and not to walk in the flesh? Why would he tell us to make our bodies a living sacrifice if that was the only thing we could do.
Those are just a few examples of a great many that clearly show that discipleship is a choice that one has to make. We must count the cost and then make our choice.
Bob you couldn't be futher from the truth. The truth of the matter is that you have clearly been shown that you are in error, but you don't want to admit it.
He restoreth my soul. That means it's an ongoing process. If his soul was saved and the matter was a done deal then he would have said he restored my soul. It's just basic English 101 Bob.
Brother Bob
New Member
He was talking to the saved and unsaved. Those who sow to the flesh are not saved.
Romans, chapter 8
Chapter
Book
"13": For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
I sure would be interested in knowing how many on this board believe that Christians can choose to either walk in the flesh or walk in the Spirit.
Romans, chapter 8
Chapter
Book
"13": For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.