Hells Nursery

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: I sure would be interested in knowing how many on this board believe that Christians can choose to either walk in the flesh or walk in the Spirit.

HP: The bond of the covenant of the OT, that existed between God and the children of Israel, was said to be ‘forever.’ God stated later on that He divorced them. Why do you suppose that happened and what was the consequence of that divorce?

 

[Matt Black]

God's character of love and grace is why I believe babies do not go to hell, but I do hold that if they did God would be just in doing so. We inherited the sinful nature from Adam and because of that one trangression we are condemened. Is it just that every woman since Eve has to bear pain in child birth? Is it just that us men now have to work for the things we recieve. I mean we were not there why are we punished?

Because Adam was our representative, and in his failing he has condemned us to sin. Yet God has provided a way for us to be redeemed, do we deserve this mercy no. You see the problem is people think they deserve to take part in Christ's success, but not in Adam's failure.

We know from Scripture that one of God's cardinal characteristics is justice. Now let me ask you this: is it just that an infant - who has committed no sin of his/her own - suffer eternal punishment as a result of a sin committed by someone else thousands of years ago? Don't forget also that Jesus, as far as His human nature was concerned, was also a descendant of that same Adam - if He had died when an infant, would He have been condemned also?

 

[Brother Bob]

HP: The bond of the covenant of the OT, that existed between God and the children of Israel, was said to be ‘forever.’ God stated later on that He divorced them. Why do you suppose that happened and what was the consequence of that divorce?

BB; To make void the promise where they became the children by a natural birth. Also, the time was at hand to set up a "new and living way" which would include all men by a Spirit birth. It would take the church out of the flesh and put it in the heart where God seeketh such to worship him in Spirit and in Truth and not in nature as they did under the Law of Sacrificies and Circumcision of the flesh. Those also were put in the heart.

 

[BD17]

We know from Scripture that one of God's cardinal characteristics is justice. Now let me ask you this: is it just that an infant - who has committed no sin of his/her own - suffer eternal punishment as a result of a sin committed by someone else thousands of years ago? Don't forget also that Jesus, as far as His human nature was concerned, was also a descendant of that same Adam - if He had died when an infant, would He have been condemned also?

Again I ask you is it fair that woman suffer for child birth and men have to work the field? Imean we were not there so why should we suffer? In God's eyes it is just.

Sorry but Jesus was not a desecendant of the same Adam. He was God that is why he was conceived of a virgin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BB; To make void the promise where they became the children by a natural birth.

HP: First they were only children by natural birth IN A SENSE. They had no hope of eternal life just because their parents were Jews. They obviously had an unprecedented opportunity, not afforded to the Gentiles in like manner anyway. Just the same, there was no shoe-in to the kingdom because your parents were Jews.

Just as God voided His promises to some Jews, can He in like manner make void the promises made to us concerning eternal life, if in fact we fail to keep our first estate even as many of the angels failed to keep theirs. Warning after warning recount this possibility within the pages of the NT. The word ‘IF’ highlights the clear possibility that we can start on the path to the Kingdom and hope of eternal life, yet turn from that path and be lost. “If ye continue” is the watchword of Scripture.

You asked a question that indicates whether or not the possibility exists that a Christian, entertaining a hope of eternal life, could sin, and once again become guilty before God. Scripture clearly represents that as a distinct possibility if not probability. “If any man sins.” There is no ‘cause,’ other than ones own will, than forces that to happen, but it most certainly can and does happen. I believe any notion to the contrary, will of a certainty, run the risk of one closing their eyes to the real distinct possibility of displeasing God with their intents, and run the risk of self-deception as to their standing before God, and lead to a false definition in ones life as to what sin is and the consequences of it. No amount of doctrinal belief to the contrary can wash ones hands or purify ones heart before God. Only as we as believers are willing to face and confront our sins, as wicked and selfish as they might be, and to seek forgiveness via repentance and faith, can we maintain our standing before the Lord and our sure hope of eternal life with Christ.

I am not saying that any have to sin, or because I or anyone else has, you must, but rather that by far the most do in fact sin subsequent to salvation, and become guilty once again before God, calling for a renewed cleansing, without which no firm hope of eternal life can be maintained. We should, as believers, seek to achieve a consistent holy walk before Him with the strength and help He has promised to afford us. Only as we achieve such a holy walk will the candle of our hope burn with consistent brilliant illumination upon the prize of the high calling of our faith.

 

[Matt Black]

Again I as you is it fair that woman suffer for child birth and men have to work the field? In God's eyes it is just.

We're talking about eternal punishment here, not whether we have to get a bit sweaty to eat...

Sorry but Jesus was not a desecendant of the same Adam. He was God that is why he was conceived of a virgin.

Whaaa.....?! Are you denying the incarnation?

 

[BD17]

We're talking about eternal punishment here, not whether we have to get a bit sweaty to eat...

Whaaa.....?! Are you denying the incarnation?

What was the garden of eden a symbol of? What was there being thrown out a symbol of?


No I am not denying the incarnation, it is a lenghty description of why Jesus does not have the same sin nature as man. And is of topic start a thread and it can be discussed there.

The natural punishment for Adam and Eve's transgression is death, they should have had eternal punishment, God did not have to show them mercy yet he did, the same way he does not have to show us Adam's descendants mercy yet he does.

 

[J. Jump]

He was talking to the saved and unsaved. Those who sow to the flesh are not saved.

No he wasn't. He was instructing saved individuals. That's the convenient excuse you and others make when you come upon something that you don't like. Oh he was talking to the unsaved.

Bob the only spiritual message that a spiritually dead person can understand is that Christ died for them according to the Scriptures. Until they are made alive spiritually they aren't even going to understand sowing and reaping and what the flesh consists of.

"13": For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Bob the words that you should have bolded that might have helped your understanding are the words IF and YE. If means that it is possible to do what I'm about to say. And ye is the audience of the letter. For if ye (saved Romans that I'm writing to) live after the flesh (because it is a possibility) ye shall die; but if ye (saved Romans who I am writing to) through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body (because that is equally possible) ye (saved people whom I'm writing to) shall live.

What about the verse in Corinthians that was brought up that showed there were some saved individuals sleeping with women they shouldn't have been sleeping with so vile was it that even the Gentiles didn't do that.

Bottom line Bob is the Bible teaches that discipleship while it is commanded it is still a choice. You either choose to obey the command or you choose to disobey the command.

 

[J. Jump]

Just as God voided His promises to some Jews

God did not void His promises made to the Jews. What would make you think that? When God makes a promise He delievers on that promise.

can He in like manner make void the promises made to us concerning eternal life, if in fact we fail to keep our first estate even as many of the angels failed to keep theirs.

Absolutely not. Eternal life is not revocable.

Warning after warning recount this possibility within the pages of the NT. The word ‘IF’ highlights the clear possibility that we can start on the path to the Kingdom and hope of eternal life, yet turn from that path and be lost. “If ye continue” is the watchword of Scripture.

Couple of things here. One the warnings are not in relation to eternal salvation. The warnings are in relation to the coming kingdom of Christ which will be a 1,000 years in length before it is given back to the Father and then the throne becomes the throne of the God and the Lamb.

Second eternal life is not something that is hoped for. You either have it or you don't. We can no without a doubt that we are eternally saved. What we have to hope for is that we will be found worthy of our inheritance and to hope that we will be overcomes instead of overcome and to hope that we ran and finished the race of the faith and to hope that we will be participants in the glory of Christ.

Eternal life (eternal salvation) is not a hope.

You asked a question that indicates whether or not the possibility exists that a Christian, entertaining a hope of eternal life, could sin, and once again become guilty before God. Scripture clearly represents that as a distinct possibility if not probability. “If any man sins.” There is no ‘cause,’ other than ones own will, than forces that to happen, but it most certainly can and does happen. I believe any notion to the contrary, will of a certainty, run the risk of one closing their eyes to the real distinct possibility of displeasing God with their intents, and run the risk of self-deception as to their standing before God, and lead to a false definition in ones life as to what sin is and the consequences of it. No amount of doctrinal belief to the contrary can wash ones hands or purify ones heart before God. Only as we as believers are willing to face and confront our sins, as wicked and selfish as they might be, and to seek forgiveness via repentance and faith, can we maintain our standing before the Lord and our sure hope of eternal life with Christ.

If this is true then a person would need to "get saved" several times during the day and make sure they "got saved" right before they went to bed each night just in case.

Eternal salvation is not a hope. it's either something you possess or something you don't. Once you possess it it is never taken away.

 

[Matt Black]

No I am not denying the incarnation, it is a lenghty description of why Jesus does not have the same sin nature as man. And is of topic start a thread and it can be discussed there.

You're sailing close to the docetic wind here. It's not off-topic as whether or not Jesus was a descendant of Adam just as we are is germane to the issue as to whether my infant son deserves to go to Hell for all eternity, but HP has started a new thread on the subject if you're interested.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: Eternal salvation is not a hope. it's either something you possess or something you don't. Once you possess it it is never taken away.

HP: You hold your salvation by your ‘absolute knowledge’ and I will hold my salvation by ‘faith,’ and we shall both see in the end who was deceived. I hope that our hearts will be found greater than our heads, and that somehow we both will obtain entrance into His kingdom.

 

[J. Jump]

You hold your salvation by your ‘absolute knowledge’ and I will hold my salvation by ‘faith,’

That's just it. I don't have to hold my salvation. And you don't have to hold your salvation. God has set the standards of what salvation is. His standards are absolute Truth. He says believe in the substitutionary death of His Son Jesus and His shed blood and you are eternally saved. Not might be saved, not hope to be saved, but are saved.

You are saying that eternal salvation is based on a hope that God is Who is says He is. I don't have to hope. God is Who He said He is and He will deliver on what He says He will deliver on.

I can't imagine going through life moment by moment wondering if at this moment I'm saved, but in the next moment I might not be. And then wondering on top of all that whether God is for real or not.

What you are basically saying, in my understanding and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, because I don't want to put words in your mouth, is that you don't know whether or not God is real or not, or you don't understand the salvation message and if it is legit or not. You seem to just be hopping that this being that claims to be God is real, but if not then oh well.

I hope that our hearts will be found greater than our heads

You are starting to talk out of both sides of your mouth like some others on this board. In some threads you are all might philosophy and reasoning and using your mind and now you want to say that using your mind is incorrect and deceitful. Are you the one that decides when reason is okay and when it's not? If so who died and put you in charge?

and that somehow we both will obtain entrance into His kingdom.

Now you are on to a different subject. Eternal salvation and entrance into the kingdom are two different things. But I do hope that we will both find entrance into the coming kingdom of the Lord Christ Jesus, but I also "know" that I am eternally secured based on the finished works of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God at Calvary after His sinless life on earth.

 

[Brother Bob]

You asked a question that indicates whether or not the possibility exists that a Christian, entertaining a hope of eternal life, could sin, and once again become guilty before God. Scripture clearly represents that as a distinct possibility if not probability

Well you said you didn't agree with me on this subject and that we might to it later so I guess this is it. I only have this Scripture to post concerning it.
Hebrews, chapter 6

"4": For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

"5": And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

"6": If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

"7": For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

"8": But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.




If they can do such sins then according to Scripture they are gone forever seeing they put God to open shame.

1 John, chapter 5
"16": If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

6": If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hi Brother Bob,
You mention a difficult passage for sure. I see this as the exception to the rule, a passage at seeming odds with the vast majority of other texts, so I tend to understand it in a way that establishes the plain texts such as “if any man sins we have an advocate with the Father,” and not the other way around. If God forgave David his sins, he will forgive you and I our sins IF we fulfill the conditions of repentance and faith.

I appreciate, as I have told you before, your stance of holy living, but I cannot see your position in this matter supported by Scripture or reason. In the passage you mention, I believe total apostasy is what is being addressed, i.e., one that has rejected all light of the gospel and no longer has the Holy Spirit to guide them. There is no hope for that individual at all. To make it state that it is ‘impossible’ for a believer to sin is simply not in harmony with, as I said, numerous passages to the contrary.

The words ‘fall away” carries a much deeper context than to simply sin. I am not saying that if one as a believer sins and continues in that sin, having not repented of it or them until the end, that such a one will find Christ as their advocate, but rather that in this time of probation it is clear to me that believer, those that entertain a hope of eternal life, can and do commit sin as believers. I believe that the one that feels that they ‘cannot’ in any ‘absolute sense,’ can be, (not necessarily that they are,) in danger of self deception and a false idea of how God sees our actions He denoted as sin.

I am not trying to lay any guilt upon you Brother Bob in the least. I do not know your life. It would be wonderful to believe that since the time of your salvation you have not transgressed God’s law. We could only praise God for upholding you and guiding you in an exceptional way. I could only exclaim “PRAISE THE LORD!!” I maintain that has to be a possibility at least. Just the same, I cannot find that to be the sincere testimony of the vast majority of believers I have met, and that is not my personal testimony. Just the same, I DO NOT JUDGE YOU by myself or the experiences of others. ALONE TO GOD we shall all stand!!

May it be found so in your life my Brother!! You will indeed be way ahead of me in line to see our Lord! I honestly hope that you will be!

 

[Brother Bob]

It would be wonderful to believe that since the time of your salvation you have not transgressed God’s law.

I am no different than any other true Christian. I tend to think the Scripture I gave "fall away" is just telling us how impossible it is for one of God's children to fall for we are kept by the power of God.

You never covered the Scripture in 1 John, chapter 5
"16": If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Now I believe this fits Christians and that we all sin but not a sin unto death. I don't believe nor will I ever believe what has been expressed on here that a child of God can even become a serial killer and not be lost. I think that is what is putting God to an open Shame. I tend to believe and want to believe that they were never saved to start with.

Back to me being a Christian. That which is born of God cannot sin (that is talking about the inward man that is born again). I still live in a fleshly body and I certainly make my mistakes and do sin but I do not sin unto death for the Lord Himself said if a man should sin unto death to not even pray for him. Now being a Christian is more responsible than just going to church on Sunday. It has to be your life and though you be tempted you can say "get behind me satan". I believe in a God that is strong enough to keep His children. You and I are not strong enough and that is why Jesus came to start with for the weakness of the flesh. When it is all (I) then you will fail, "but as many as I love I also chastise" and he that is without chastisment is a bastard and not a son. That Scripture alone tells me that all of God's children do wrong, but again, not a sin unto death. Blessings,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1 John, chapter 5
"16": If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

HP: Here I see yet another isolate text that does not, at first glance, seem to fit the overwhelming notion concerning sin and its penalty in Scripture, that sin is the transgression of the law incurring the prescribed penalty of sin, i.e., eternal separation from God.

I would maintain that, in this verse, there is a sin unto ‘physical death, i.e., in some cases God directly times physical death to be directly associated as a ‘consequence of sin.’ This is not to say that physical death is by any means the penalty for sin, but rather the timing of physical can and is in fact in some cases, a consequent of sin.

If in fact a person sins a sin in which God sees fit to terminate their life immediately, (as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira,) as a consequence of that sin, John tells us that it will do us no good to pray about that. God has made the decision and it is final already. No time to pray for any change.

The penalty for sin and a direct consequence of sin are not one in the same. The death mentioned here, obviously to me being physical death, is a consequence of some sins, but not the penalty for it.

 

[Brother Bob]

HP;
Could you describe that sin for me?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: Could you describe that sin for me?

HP: The description of the sin is not the issue as I see it. It could be any sin that for whatever reasons or intents God would have, that He would deem it in the best interest of all His sentient beings to end the physical existence of that person who God sees as committing a sin, or simply an action, worthy of immediate death.

In the OT we see the example of Uzzah that simply reached his hand out to steady the Ark. I do not know the motivations of Uzzah, nor do we need to. God may have just taken his life in order to set an example to the others that disobedience would not be tolerated. God did not necessarily have to even judge Uzzah’s actions as sinful, in any moral sense, and in his case Uzzah might have been accepted into the kingdom of heaven. We simply do not know. From our perspective we might see it, regardless of how God sees it, as a sin unto death.

The point of the verse in question is not the nature of the sin necessarily, nor of the ultimate punishment God will inflict as a result of the intent, but rather is speaking to an immediate action of God taken at certain times which prayers have no recourse for, nor are they productive in any manner, to change that which God has set in stone by His hand.

 

[Brother Bob]

I am sorry HP; I will have to disagree. The kind of sin is the whole point and is what we have been discussing all along. It is the kind of sin I say a Christian cannot do because he is kept by the power of God.

Are you saying if the sin is bad enough that God will take their life if they are Christians to keep them from being lost?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BB: Are you saying if the sin is bad enough that God will take their life if they are Christians to keep them from being lost?

HP: No. I never said any such thing and neither did I imply it. God’s reasons for taking such action is unknown to me. Even David could not understand why God killed Uzzah, and was upset with God for a while because of it.