Humblesmith
Member
Please do not call dispensationalism heresy. You may disagree with it, and whether or not it matches with scripture is in disagreement. But it is not heresy..
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Here's Something That Will Make You Think!!
- Thread starter skypair
- Start date
Mel Miller
New Member
Will Make You Think
Would you please give the source "quote" for calling it "heresy".
Mel Miller :thumbs:
Humblesmith said:
Would you please give the source "quote" for calling it "heresy".
Mel Miller :thumbs:
Humblesmith
Member
Mr. Botwinick's post on the first page.
Mel Miller
New Member
Make You Think
Humblesmith,
I am a Post-Trib Dispensationalist! I see 3 major Dispenstations!! The OT Dispensation; the NT Dispensation; and the Millennial Dispensation!!!
The Saints of the OT and NT Dispensation comprise the ONE BODY that
is growing unto a "HOLY TEMPLE in the Lord"! Eph.2:11-22. Ths Body
makes up the Bride of the Lamb that will dwell forever in the New Jerusalem after the Martyrs serve God in that Temple in heaven for 1000 years!! Rev.3:11-12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4-5. The sheep nations that make up the "eternal kingdom" on earth will enter the New Jerusalem at any time, day or night, to be "healed by the leaves of the tree of life"!!!
Matt.25:32-34; Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
Humblesmith,
I am a Post-Trib Dispensationalist! I see 3 major Dispenstations!! The OT Dispensation; the NT Dispensation; and the Millennial Dispensation!!!
The Saints of the OT and NT Dispensation comprise the ONE BODY that
is growing unto a "HOLY TEMPLE in the Lord"! Eph.2:11-22. Ths Body
makes up the Bride of the Lamb that will dwell forever in the New Jerusalem after the Martyrs serve God in that Temple in heaven for 1000 years!! Rev.3:11-12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4-5. The sheep nations that make up the "eternal kingdom" on earth will enter the New Jerusalem at any time, day or night, to be "healed by the leaves of the tree of life"!!!
Matt.25:32-34; Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
Mel Miller
New Member
Will Make You Think
ituttut,
The GRACE dispensation does not annul or change the requirement for
eternal life before or during the dispensation of the Law! The Law was given as a preparatory tutor until Christ came to "fulfill the law"!! It is always by grace alone that men are saved BY or THRU faith!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :tonofbricks:
ituttut said:
ituttut,
The GRACE dispensation does not annul or change the requirement for
eternal life before or during the dispensation of the Law! The Law was given as a preparatory tutor until Christ came to "fulfill the law"!! It is always by grace alone that men are saved BY or THRU faith!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :tonofbricks:
Agree The GRACE dispensation (This GRACE dispensation) doesn't annul or change requirements of the past.
And I also agree it is always by the grace of God in His Mercy that He justifies man, as He will when dispensing His Grace. But you make no distinction of using By as a preposition, changing the word through, to thru (preposition)in order to fit you mistranslation of scripture to fit another of your theories. The scripture in order to not contradict reads By faith to be an adverb (not for immediate use), and through to be an adjective (of going or continuing without delay.
I asked about the Grace dispensation of today, of which you did not answer. Paul says Christ gave to him a "dispensational gospel".
1. Can we believe this?
2. I say we can identify this "dispensational" gospel Paul was given. Paul says it is New, so shouldn't we identify what this New wine is that must go into a New Bottle?
3. Paul says God had "hidden" from man this New information. Any ideas along this line?
Mel Miller
New Member
ituttut said:
I agree with you! But don't confuse the means of salvation with the NEW
revelations Paul gives concerning the RESULTS of our Faith!! The most important RESULT of that revelation is that both OT Jews and NT Gentiles belong to the same "ONE BODY that is still growing unto a Holy Temple in the Lord of which Paul became the Messenger"!!! Eph.2:11 to Eph.3:7.
Peter learned this truth in embryonic form! Paul gave expression to its
having been a "mystery" hidden from OT Saints!! We must not twist the truth to force-fit a dispensational separation of OT and NT Saints!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
AMEN Bropther Ituttut -- Preach it! :thumbs:
Mel Miller: //We must not twist the truth to force-fit
a dispensational separation of OT and NT Saints!!! //
In fact, OT & NT Saints are dispensationally separated
not by body, as Mel Suggests, but by time.
In the OT AGE (phase 1) from Moses to Christ, their
were no NT Saints. In the NT AGE from Christ's
first leaving to Christ's second coming (phase 1)
AKA: the pretribulation rapture, there are no OT saints.
Messanic Jews are part of the mostly Gentile Church.
In fact, the NT AGE is usually called in the literature
THE CHURCH AGE - i.e. the age in which one can become
a member of the mostly gentile, born-again, saved, redeemed
elect saints group called THE CHURCH.
In the age that follows the pretribulatin resurreciton/rapture,
the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom Age, we will be in
the OT AGE (page 2).
This Jewish Israeli elect saints group (probably also
called THE CHURCH) is a different group of people than
the mostly gentile, born-again, saved, redeemed
elect saints group called THE CHURCH.
BTW, I've been condemned by using non-Biblical phrases.
Well nearly all the Bible talks about two different groups:
1. Jewish Israeli elect saints group called THE CHURCH
2. the mostly gentile, born-again, saved, redeemed
elect saints group called THE CHURCH
Which two groups Bro. Mel Miller calles:
The OT saints - Jewish Israeli elect saints group called THE CHURCH
The NT saints - the mostly gentile, born-again, saved, redeemed
elect saints group called THE CHURCH
Mel Miller: //We must not twist the truth to force-fit
a dispensational separation of OT and NT Saints!!! //
In fact, OT & NT Saints are dispensationally separated
not by body, as Mel Suggests, but by time.
In the OT AGE (phase 1) from Moses to Christ, their
were no NT Saints. In the NT AGE from Christ's
first leaving to Christ's second coming (phase 1)
AKA: the pretribulation rapture, there are no OT saints.
Messanic Jews are part of the mostly Gentile Church.
In fact, the NT AGE is usually called in the literature
THE CHURCH AGE - i.e. the age in which one can become
a member of the mostly gentile, born-again, saved, redeemed
elect saints group called THE CHURCH.
In the age that follows the pretribulatin resurreciton/rapture,
the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom Age, we will be in
the OT AGE (page 2).
This Jewish Israeli elect saints group (probably also
called THE CHURCH) is a different group of people than
the mostly gentile, born-again, saved, redeemed
elect saints group called THE CHURCH.
BTW, I've been condemned by using non-Biblical phrases.
Well nearly all the Bible talks about two different groups:
1. Jewish Israeli elect saints group called THE CHURCH
2. the mostly gentile, born-again, saved, redeemed
elect saints group called THE CHURCH
Which two groups Bro. Mel Miller calles:
The OT saints - Jewish Israeli elect saints group called THE CHURCH
The NT saints - the mostly gentile, born-again, saved, redeemed
elect saints group called THE CHURCH
Mel Miller
New Member
Will Make Your Think
Ed Edwards
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"In the age that follows the pretribulatin resurreciton/rapture, the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom Age, we will be in the OT AGE".
_____________________________________________________________
This is so out-of-sync with Paul's teaching that it defies cerebral analysis!
Paul is guiltless of such a jerky, spastic paralysis that would deny "we Gentiles have become fellow-partakers and sharers and heirs of the promises made to OT Saints of the Commonwealth of Israel"!! Eph.3:6. Who but a connosseur of theoretical hypotheses could assume the Age of Messiah begins at a Pre-Trib Rapture 7 years before He comes in glory?!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :BangHead:
Ed Edwards
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"In the age that follows the pretribulatin resurreciton/rapture, the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom Age, we will be in the OT AGE".
_____________________________________________________________
This is so out-of-sync with Paul's teaching that it defies cerebral analysis!
Paul is guiltless of such a jerky, spastic paralysis that would deny "we Gentiles have become fellow-partakers and sharers and heirs of the promises made to OT Saints of the Commonwealth of Israel"!! Eph.3:6. Who but a connosseur of theoretical hypotheses could assume the Age of Messiah begins at a Pre-Trib Rapture 7 years before He comes in glory?!!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :BangHead:
Exactly! That's the reason I pointed out to you error you put forth. All you did was reword "error". Please read Hebrews 11 once again, and tell us how many were "justified through" faith; and then those by and/or thru faith. Zero (0) justified through faith.Mel Miller said:
Was "justification through faith" preached before Damascus Road?
First we know this was the only Gentile Peter ever preached at or to, and this was God's doing. The purpose? It had to be so for Paul to be accepted by the Jewish community (that is what is happening in these verses) as being the only Apostle appointed by Christ from heaven to preach to the Gentile's. The Apostles gave their blessing for Paul to go to the Gentile with the gospel of Grace. You cannot find in the Word of God any of the Apostle's preaching their "circumcision gospel" to the "uncircumcised" while Jerusalem and the Temple stood. That "other gospel" of the Jew was never meant for we Gentiles (Jew now seen as Gentile) to enter the Body Church by His Grace.
You are correct as to "through" (not THRU) being Romanized dia, in this verse, and in this verse a prepositional phrase is seen that has adjectival relation to faith and through being seen as "after". Paul makes separate By and Through for a reason.
Two examples. When correctly understood it is easy to see. There is no possible way any could be, or become aware of being justified "through faith", until after the name of Jesus the Christ is known, and after He shed His Blood.
The next is showing those before Abraham, then the Jew justified (ek, out of) the faith shown in Hebrews 11 is no longer toward God, but concentrated on and in Christ. We uncircumcised needed to have a way into the Body of Christ. We had no faith, so God provided. He provided with a gift, and what a gift. "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast", Ephesians 2:2-9. It is now by the faith of Jesus Christ, that through His faith all today may come.
This is the "Grace dispensation" and it says that is the way we are saved. How are we "justified today"? By being identified with Him in death and resurrection (baptism without hands). The only way we can to that is by going to the Cross, joining With Him, and In Him we come Through His Blood. We have faith in His Blood, and only By His Faith are we able to come Through His Blood, which we have faith in.
It looks in places you say what I say. By the faith of Christ Jesus, which we come through, we are today justified. Before Jesus no one could come through the faith that He had. It was impossible to come through faith that had not been shown. Habakkuk 2:4 tells us this. It is by His faith that we live. But who knew His name, and what would that faith be?
Good point, and Yes you have it right, for today. But you still "oppose" the teaching of the Bible. James, Peter, John and the rest of the "Kingdom Church" shook hands with Paul, Barnabas, and Titus not to include the "uncircumcised" in their gospel. Christ Jesus gave authority to Paul to go to both the Gentile and the Jew, of which He did with the "grace commission", and not the "great commission".Mel Miller said:
The gospel of Paul is what brings the Jew and the Gentile under one roof, and not the preaching of James, who says "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone", in 2:17. Well Paul disagrees with the gospel built on the foundation of Peter, that other house. On Paul's foundation of Jesus Christ, our faith is on Jesus Christ because He did all of the work, and it is through this faith that all are to come. "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith", Romans 3:27.
But Peter was sent to the first Gentile quite sometime later after Damascus Road, after Christ sent Paul into an Arabian desert to teach Paul for about three years the gospel of God's Grace for the world. Forty years in the desert for Moses to deliver Israel, over three and a half years preparing the Apostles, for Pentecostal understanding, and now about 3 years preparing Saul/Paul with the gospel of God's Grace.
Agree we must not twist the truth, which is to force the Old gospel into the New gospel. Jesus says that old cloth is worn out. Peter witnessed how we Gentiles are saved, but he was shocked, and stunned, as were the others with him. They couldn't believe it, and they sure didn't understand it, until later, much later. He had talked to Paul in the meantime. Acts 15:11, "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."
Tell me now where is Boasting; it is excluded by the "law of faith". Where can we find we are to be in that "Kingdom Church" today?. Where is the "former" gospel preached to we Gentiles, that gospel of the Jew of the "great commandment"?
We do err for Peter knew Paul had wisdom given to no other man for understanding the New gospel of the "Body Church", e.g., II Peter 3:15-16, "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
Doesn't Paul warn us all and now Peter warns all His people?