Heretic hunters

[Pete]

rsr, I must admit mate I did have to check the cyberhymnal site to find the writers of that one

I knew it was not Wesley because I put together a hour and bit special on him last year for Church I was going to at the time. If Crown Him With Many Crowns was one of his I would have been sure to somehow juggle it into the program

It is understandable having brain malfunction after watching Hinn

Pete

 

[Ray Berrian]

Rev. Benny Hinn is predominately a person used of the Lord to heal people; [I Corinthians 12:9b] I have heard him preach the saving message of Christ's Gospel. I don't necessarily believe that every person ‘slain in the Spirit' gets a healing from the Lord, but I am sure they receive a great uplift in the Holy Spirit.

Marilyn Hickey, the radio and television speaker is a person ministering in Christ's Name. I feel that she can preach on the practical Christian life better than anyone I have ever heard.

Remember what Jesus said about people who do not minister the same way we might in our church. In our way of saying it Jesus said, "Any one who is not against Me is on our side." Think about our Lord's words in Mark 9:38-40.

Saul was 'slain in the Spirit' [Acts 9:3-8] when the Lord saved him and he became perhaps the greatest apostle of the Christian faith.

We have to watch what we say; we may be inadvertently 'quenching the Spirit.' [I Thessalonians 5:19]

Ray Berrian, Th.D.

I am not a follower of their ministry but if I happen to see them on television, I'll watch them.

 

[rsr]

The reason this is important:

Many Americans assume that the most common way of experiencing the Christian faith is by attending a church service. A new nationwide survey by the Barna Research Group, of Ventura, California, reports a different conclusion. A greater number of adults experience the Christian faith through Christian media, such as radio, television or books, than attend Christian churches.

-- Barna Research

http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePressRelease.asp?PressReleaseID=116&Reference=F

 

[Pete]

I'ld have to agree to disagree there I think Ray.

I think the gift of healing is still around today, however have my doubts about Mr Hinn. It would be interesting hear him preach the Gospel, however every time I have caught him on TV it is his line-em-up-&-knock-em-down show.

The same sort of thing with Mrs Hickey. Most of her shows seem to be taken up with trying to sell either "prayer cloths", vials of semi-diluted prayed for oil, etc. God healed the sick through handkerchiefs and aprons touched by Paul, (Acts 19:11-12) however I don't recall seeing Paul give his address for credit card orders

(Deleted paragraph before posting, written about numerous warnings God gives about false prophets/teachers, and a couple of names named)

Now THERES an interesting topic, 'slain in the Spirit'. Most of the proof texts used to support the practice for Christians do no such thing. Examples: Saul was on his way to Damascus to persecute the Church. John fell at his feet as dead, the little fact of him writing Revelation after is usually left out of discussion. Ezekiel fell on his face, then wrote. The soldiers were coming to arrest Jesus when fell back at His "I Am He". Ananias & Sapphira, no comment needed. I miss anything?

I am sure if the likes of Hinn and co. were around in Moses day there would not be a bush left in the area, as they would all be going around with a box of matches and lighting them.

We do have to watch what we say, as Paul said to Timothy we also have to watch our life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. (1 Timothy 4:16 NIV) I wonder how close Mr Hinn watches his doctrine when comes out with something like there being 9 members of the Trinity. Though I clown around a lot myself, I don't think "just kidding" covers something like that.

Pete

 

[Ray Berrian]

Titus 2,

I would say clearly that the Apostle John was 'slain in the Spirit' as some Christians word it. As you noted it is found in Revelation 1:17. When God moved that close to the apostle he had no strength in his body. Notice after this special experience, John was then equipped to write about the seven churches.

I am not a Penecostal but one time in Bible College this experience happened to me. I got so much in prayer that I could feel the Spirit pushing me down like a soft pillow. I tried to get up because I consider myself a 'sophisticated person' but was not able to do so. After a period of time I could feel the Holy Spirit withdraw from me slowly. It was the most spiritual energizing thing that has ever happened to me. I asked the Lord in prayer to let this happen again before He one day takes me to Heaven and into His eternal Presence. I know from the Word of God that He indwells us forever. I do not count this as a necessary event for every Christian, but apparently He though I needed it at this time. I never happened again. I did not speak in tongues; I want to make this clear.

Some Christians are happy with cold, dead orthodoxy. I try to keep close to Him so He can do in my life as pleases Him, and what He ministers is always written down in His most Holy Word, the Bible.

 

[Pete]

I cannot see a relation between the practice termed "slain in the spirit" these days and what happened with Ezekiel & John. Ezekiel saw God, John saw the risen glorified Christ. Then both of them were then told to write what they saw, and were given visions of the messages they had to deliver in God's Name. These messages we now have of course as the books of Ezekiel and Revelation.

There is no passage in Bible that presents anything like the "slain etc" practice of today. A couple of times believers received the Holy Spirit when the disciples laid their hands on them, however while there are mentions of tongues and prophesying on those occasions, there is no mention of falling back or "catchers". Occurrences of falling back in Bible usually a sign of God's judgement.

Interestingly with Ezekiel, he had the vision of the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD in 1:28 and fell face down, then in 2:1-2 God told him to stand up, and the Spirit raised him to his feet. Whereas today's "thing" seems generally to be the same people going out for the same things, laying on the same carpet, eventually getting up and walking out the door the same as they were when they walked in, to come back next week and repeat...ad nauseam ad infinitum.

Ray, as presented I am unsure on the events of your experience? "..the Spirit pushing me down.." Which way "down"? Bowing? Kneeling? Back? Any catchers? etc?

Some Christians are happy with cold, dead orthodoxy.

Bit of a contradiction there I think mate. If they are Christian then they are alive, the Spirit gives life

Is there any such animal as "dead orthodoxy"?

I try to keep close to Him so He can do in my life as pleases Him, and what He ministers is always written down in His most Holy Word, the Bible.

Amen!

Pete

[ October 21, 2002, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Titus2_1 ]

 

[Rev. G]

Rev. Benny Hinn is predominately a person used of the Lord to heal people; [I Corinthians 12:9b] I have heard him preach the saving message of Christ's Gospel.

Ray, now I'm starting to understand why you take some of the positions you do...

Where is the factual documentation that anyone at one of his meetings has ever been healed?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Someone asked how did I fall?

There were four of us Bible school students at prayer when this experience happened to me. I was sitting on the floor in 'an indian position' when the Holy Spirit pushed me over gently. I don't know which way I fell. I would guess probably backward. I never asked the other young men. Like I said before, people don't always seek Christian experiences, God in His sovereignty ministers as He wills.

On occasion I have seen people fall under the 'power' of the Spirit, as you say, without 'catchers' and they never brake any bones. Interesting.

Like I said before Saul had this experience at the point of his conversion into the faith. [Acts 9:3-4, 8] When I was saved I did not have any dramatic, experience except I knew that He had taken away my sins and I had peace in my heart and life.

Some people have gone to the doctor to confirm their physical healing by God. Personal testimony I take to be credible in most cases. If someone has a severe back problem and is healed by God, they sure would know the difference in their own body.

My son when he was about age one and one half could not hold food or water in his stomach. He was dehidrating and his ribs were obvious. We had previously taken him to the doctor with no result. I called my parents who lived 200 miles away in Schenectady, N.Y. because it was a sure thing that he was going to die. My wife held the baby and I 'anointed' him with oil in keeping with James 5:14-15. I prayed for him like only a father could pray in this situation. Five hours later my father and mother arrived and I was embarrassed, because God raised Brian up physically speaking and he was beginning to keep water on his stomach by drinking with a bottle.

I have been used to heal a couple of other people, but I don't advertize. The Bible says that in most cases the sick person is to 'call for the elders of the church' for prayer. If someone came to me with a life-threatening illness and I prayed for them, I would most definitely have them return to their medical doctor for continued care, in case, God did not see fit to heal that person. Remaining under medical care is very important.

Again, I am not a Pentecostal and I don't have the 'gift of tongues.'

I know some Christians are disbelieving of these kinds of happenings. I hope this will add some light to the issue before us.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Rev. Benny Hinn is predominately a person used of the Lord to heal people; [I Corinthians 12:9b] I have heard him preach the saving message of Christ's Gospel. I don't necessarily believe that every person ‘slain in the Spirit' gets a healing from the Lord, but I am sure they receive a great uplift in the Holy Spirit.

If this is true,

Why does he teach so many things that so blatantly pervert scripture?

I have serious doubts about someone who claims to be a minister of the Gospel who perverts the doctrine of:

(a)Christ's atonement
(b)The nature of God the Father
(c)The nature of God the Son
(d)The nature and role of the Holy Spirit
(e)the nature of man

Hinn is a very charismatic preacher and I can see how people can mistake personality for inspiration.

After all, I got caught up in the Word of Faith cult when I was a new Christian and followed the likes of Hinn, Copeland (I was a huge Kenneth Copeland fan), Larry Lea and other false teachers.

But the big test is what does the Bible say?

Does the Bible really say that there are nine persons in the Godhead? Does the Bible really say that Benny Hinn is a "little messiah walking the Earth" and that we should call him "Benny Jehovah"? Does the Bible really say that Christ had to suffer in Hell to earn His own redemption before he could ever provide ours?

Of course not. But Benny Hinn does.

Does the Bible condone necromancy?

No, but that didn't stop Benny Hinn from camping out on Katherine Kuhlman's and Aimee Semple McPherson's graves hoping that their "annointing" would rub off.

I followed Hinn for years and the only time I even heard him preach Christ crucified was as the means to an end, to "appropriate the promises of God" (i.e. health and wealth).

That's blasphemy, pure and simple.

Also, if people in Hinn audiences are really being "slain in the spirit", then why does he have so many "plants" in the audience?

Marilyn Hickey, the radio and television speaker is a person ministering in Christ's Name. I feel that she can preach on the practical Christian life better than anyone I have ever heard.

She teaches the same blasphemy as Benny Hinn, including the "born again Jesus" doctrine but, in some ways she's worse.

She claims that William Branham is her "father in the faith" and that she recieved her blessing from Branham.

In the whole history of false teachers, Branham is second only to, perhaps, E.W. Kenyon.

Remember what Jesus said about people who do not minister the same way we might in our church. In our way of saying it Jesus said, "Any one who is not against Me is on our side." Think about our Lord's words in Mark 9:38-40.

But these false teachers are against Him.

Remember the Bible also says, "Let him who preaches another Gospel be accursed".

These two and so many othdrs in the WoF cult rely on experience other exegesis and new age and gnostic heresies.

This is not a good thing.

We are warned to stay away from false teachers and to warn others about them.

Saul was 'slain in the Spirit' [Acts 9:3-8] when the Lord saved him and he became perhaps the greatest apostle of the Christian faith.

There's a huge difference here.

Saul recived a one on one, personal visit from the Lord Jesus Christ.

People in the WoF cult are manipulated by groupthink and a hightened state of suggestability.

Saul was made blind by his experience of being "slain in the spirit". Why aren't others being made blind?

Also, if this were the Holy Spirit, wouldn't He be giving tacit approval to the false teachings of Hinn and other false teachers by doing this at their shows at their command?

Why would the Holy Spirit give tacit approval to practices which contradict the word of God? Is He confused? Is the Bible not really the word of God? What?

We have to watch what we say; we may be inadvertently 'quenching the Spirit.'

We are commanded by scripture to speak out against them.

Considering the "spirit" at work in their teaching, I don't think quenching it is a bad thing.

Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

Smoke Eater,

No one should believe your accusations. We look for real documentation.

The reason Rev. Hinn does not preach 'limited atonement' is because it is unBiblical. Calvinism does not equal Biblical theology.

Preaching to enrich the treasury is not totally wrong. Much of the money goes on to missions and to broadcast time in radio and television.

Maybe we should talk about the prominent five point Calvinist, Mr. Harold Camping, who falsely teaches that the church age and churches are no longer being used of God. Heresy. Even other Presbyterian pastors decry his false teaching.

Our job is to toss out the error and bring in the truth to our hearts. Do you agree?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Smoke Eater,

No one should believe your accusations. We look for real documentation.

OK.

http://www.letusreason.org/Wf1.htm

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/false.html

http://www.pfo.org/bhnecro.htm

http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-a/btg-043a.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/b.hinn1.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/b.hinn2.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/b.hinn6.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/pent39.htm

http://www.seii.com/ccn/cults/hinn-09.txt

http://www.letusreason.org/b.hinn3.htm

http://www.pfo.org/prophecy.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/b.hinn4.htm

I could go on, if you'd like.

The reason Rev. Hinn does not preach 'limited atonement' is because it is unBiblical. Calvinism does not equal Biblical theology.

So far, it doesn't look like the fact that something is unbiblical is much of a deterrant to Hinn.

Preaching to enrich the treasury is not totally wrong. Much of the money goes on to missions and to broadcast time in radio and television.

And much goes in his pocket.

The Apostle Paul was so worried about not being a burden on the people he was ministering to, he took a day job.

Maybe we should talk about the prominent five point Calvinist, Mr. Harold Camping, who falsely teaches that the church age and churches are no longer being used of God. Heresy. Even other Presbyterian pastors decry his false teaching.

I think you've got me confused with somebody else. I'm certainly no defender of Harold Camping for a number of reasons.

Now, quit trying to change the subject.

Our job is to toss out the error and bring in the truth to our hearts. Do you agree?

Agreed. Let's start with Benny Hinn and the rest of the WoF cult.

Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

The main theme is Heretic Hunters. I am not off the subject. I am just saying that Calvinists have their apostates. Mr. Harold Camping believes that the Church age and the church's ministry is over. As stated before even Presbyterian ministers want to throw him off Family Radio. Disgrace!

Today, Mr. Camping said that every Christian is a prophet. Anything that comes out of his mouth he thinks is directly from the Bible and not from the mind of man. The man is deceived and should have stayed with his construction business where he did not have to harm young or newborn Christians.

As far as your documentation of Pastor Benny Hinn--it is a big pile of Calvinistic bias and hatred of ministries that preach 'free grace' to every human being. [Romans 5:18 & I John 2:2] {for example}

I'm not jealous over his Christian success and that perhaps he lives better than me. This is something to celebrate not to say, 'most of the money goes in his pocket.' He must have a big pocket.

We may not like all of his words or ideas but the central teaching of Jesus is at the heart of his teaching. My guess is that some Baptist wrongly believe that healing is not for this dispensation, ever since Jesus returned to heaven. Funny how it is found in I Corinthians 12 & 14 and in James chapter 5. If we deny healing for our day, then maybe 'sanctification' or 'tithing' should also be thrown out because we think it should not interfere with our unique church teachings.

If people believe that Jesus can take away sins, let's not be too critical about some things that we do not agree with from our perspective. In other words, let us not be too narrow minded.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
As far as your documentation of Pastor Benny Hinn--it is a big pile of Calvinistic bias and hatred of ministries that preach 'free grace' to every human being. [Romans 5:18 & I John 2:2] {for example}

Huh?

First of all, those articles were all using his own words and every one of them included references so that you, assuming you have an open mind, which is looking doubtful, or anyone who is interested can see for themselves.

I'm not jealous over his Christian success and that perhaps he lives better than me. This is something to celebrate not to say, 'most of the money goes in his pocket.' He must have a big pocket.

Ummm, Ok.

We may not like all of his words or ideas but the central teaching of Jesus is at the heart of his teaching.

But which Jesus? Certainly not the Jesus of the Bible.

My guess is that some Baptist wrongly believe that healing is not for this dispensation, ever since Jesus returned to heaven. Funny how it is found in I Corinthians 12 & 14 and in James chapter 5. If we deny healing for our day, then maybe 'sanctification' or 'tithing' should also be thrown out because we think it should not interfere with our unique church teachings.

I don't recall anyone saying that healing isn't for today, although you've brought up several things that no one here has said, so I'm not entirely sure if we're even reading the same thread.

If people believe that Jesus can take away sins, let's not be too critical about some things that we do not agree with from our perspective. In other words, let us not be too narrow minded.

When someone brings up some questions concerning a false teacher and uses quotes directly from sid teacher, you blast them with all sorts of baseless accusations and refuse to discuss the subject at hand so I don't think you're in any position to preach about narrowmindedness.

This isn't just a case of calvinism vs arminianism or premillinialism vs amilliniamism. We're talking about someone who completely perverts the gospel of Christ for personal gain.

Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

You said something to the effect of ' . . . but which Jesus; not the Jesus of the Bible.'

Ray is saying, "Is he preaching the Jesus of the encyclopedia or of history?" I think you will find that the pastor believes that Jesus is Divine. That's a plus.

You do know that his parents were Jewish and that he converted to the Christian faith, right?
He is probably only half serious about what you said that he said, about being Messianic or something about that idea.

If you and I were in the spotlight like he is, people would rip us apart about our theological views also. Do you agree?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
You said something to the effect of ' . . . but which Jesus; not the Jesus of the Bible.'

[qb]

Ray is saying, "Is he preaching the Jesus of the encyclopedia or of history?" I think you will find that the pastor believes that Jesus is Divine. That's a plus.

There are other religions who acknowledge Jesus as "divine".

Luke 4:41 tells us that even the Devil and his Demon's acknowledge Christ's "divinity". ((That's for Curtis, who doesnt think I read the Bible))

You do know that his parents were Jewish and that he converted to the Christian faith, right?

Or so he claims, but the authors of the excellent book, "The Confusing World of Benny Hinn" trace his family tree, interview Jewish and Palestinian officials in the town where his father supposedly served as mayor and use Hinn's own words to demonstrate that he is lying.

The book goes on to show several instances where he butchers the Hebrew language, which he claims to be an expert in.

By the way, don't you find it the least bit odd that there are no records of his father being mayor and that no one remembers his father being mayor?

He is probably only half serious about what you said that he said, about being Messianic or something about that idea.

No, he was serious because he repeated his claims in several different places, on several different occasions and none of them were in the context of a joke.

If you and I were in the spotlight like he is, people would rip us apart about our theological views also. Do you agree?

If I were shown to be a false teacher and was shown to have lied as often as he has, I would have it coming.

[ October 30, 2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Is everyone ignoring the fact the Mr. Harold Camping is a heretic. Christ died for the church and this layperson has the audacity to suggest that Christ has set the Christian church aside in 'these last days.' I sure would not want to be in his shoes when this 'wanta be theologian' stands before the Lord of Heaven and earth. When you have no credentials you should not be telling other people what the Bible is saying.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Is everyone ignoring the fact the Mr. Harold Camping is a heretic.

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say heretic, but he certainly does have some teachings that are questionable when held up to the light of scripture.

No one is ignoring him. Most people here probably just aren't aware of who he is.

Don't you think it's just a little bit disingenuous to keep bringing up Benny Hinn and then, when someone challenges your claims, changing the subject to Harold Camping?

When you have no credentials you should not be telling other people what the Bible is saying.

You're telling people what the Bible says. What are your credentials?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Smoke Eater,

B.S. degree in theology
B.D. degree in theology
Th.D. degree -- an earned degree and received in the year 2,000 {Summa Cum Laude}

I have been pastoring for over twenty-three years.

In these achievements I have given thanks to the Lord for giving me the opportunity to study more about Him. He alone is to be praised. Without wonderful grace we are without hope.

 

[Mike McK]

Where did you earn your degree?

Not that I'm doubting you, but for a pastor with a CV like yours, you sure don't seem to show much discernment.

I'm sorry if that sounds condescending, but I'm baffled at the idea that someone who claims to be a pastor and educated to the point that you do would support somebody who is so obviously outside of orthodox Christianity.

[ October 25, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
On occasion I have seen people fall under the 'power' of the Spirit, as you say, without 'catchers' and they never brake any bones. Interesting.

Very interesting...In the last couple of weeks in Oz a woman took an "alphabet soup" (aog/clc/etc) church to court as she damaged herself by falling when no "catcher" was behind her.

I was a heretic myself for a couple of years, attending a few alphabet soup churches. I was in the wrong spot at the wrong time after a service one night and ended up taking one catch myself. I remember the lady looking behind her before falling to make sure there was someone there. Now I think I should have just walked off and let her go for it. If the thing is from the Lord, surely the landing is from Him too?

Like I said before Saul had this experience at the point of his conversion into the faith.

As I previously mentioned, Saul was not a Christian at the time of his experience. Lets look at the man...Acts 7:58, Saul looks after the cloaks of those stoning Stephen. Acts 8:1, Saul approves of Stephen's stoning. Acts 8:3, the NIV says Saul began to destroy the church, KJV there says he made havock of the church, he goes from house to house, throwing Christians in prison. Acts 9:1, Saul is breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples (NIV) or breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord (KJV). He then plans his excursion to Damascus to bring back any Christians he could find to Jerusalem.

The light flashed around him in 9:3, and the same Saul we just looked at was the one who hit the ground in 9:4. It was then he heard the voice of the Lord "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" (NIV) I notice Jesus there said "..why do.." and not "..why did.."

Using Saul's falling experience to justify the "slain in the spirit" thing would be the same as those who claim the Holy Spirit makes them roar, moo, meow, bark, squeak, etc using Nebuchadnezzar's experience in Daniel 4 to justify these things.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I do not attack healing. The God of truth heals. However an appearance of healing also comes from the enemy, as Jesus said in Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' {23} Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (NIV) Remember Paul warned the Church at Corinth that "Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." (2 Corinthians 11:14)

In the Bible God worked through his people to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons. These men spoke God's truth. However Benny Hinn and Co sprout false teachings and false prophecies (more than enough documentation at sites listed in posts above, including audio/video files) like it is a competition to see who can do the most, what does that make their 'healing'?

Is everyone ignoring the fact the Mr. Harold Camping is a heretic.

I have never heard of the man myself. Is he a big a heretic as Mr Hinn et al? I wonder if thou art ignoring Mr Benny Hinn's membership of that club? I think thou maybe doth defendeth him too much?

Pete

[ October 25, 2002, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Titus2_1 ]