Heretic hunters

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Heretic hunters may want to look at Harold Camping by looking up in a SEARCH --Mr. Harold Camping.

I did look him up after you mentioned him to see if there was some teaching of his that I wasn't aware of.

There wasn't. The only thing I found objectionable was his beliefs on the church age.

As much as I disagree with him on that, I don't think it even comes close to the heresies of teh WoF cult.

Oh, by the way he is a Five Point Calvinist which may have contributed to his coming up with this 'private interpretation.'

I don't know of any Calvinists who teach this so how do you pin this on them?

Before we move on to Harold Camping, don't you think you should explain why you support Hinn and Hickey in light of their false teachings?

Mike

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
So if you are a Christian and God moves on you try to fall front.

WWAMABJDEMTDACOT(ANFATAIH)D? (What Would Abraham, Moses, Aaron, Balaam, Joshua, Jehoshaphat, David, Ezekiel, Micah, The Disciples, A Cast Of Thousands, (And Not Forgetting All The Angels In Heaven) Do?) Gen 17:1-4, 17:17, Num 16:20-22, Num 20:6, 22:31, Josh 5:14, 7:6, 2 Ki 17:35-36, 2 Chr 20:18, Psa 5:7, 95:6, 138:2, Ezek 1:28, 3:23, 11:13, 43:3, 44:4, Micah 6:6, Mat 17:4-6, Rev 7:11....

Interesting isn't it? Even Balaam, not one of God's people, still bowed facedown when the LORD opened his eyes. If Balaam had this experience today many would be claiming him to be Christian, the Bible clearly says otherwise (2 Pet 2:15-17, Rev 2:14).

Do sinners always fall backward?

As seen above with Balaam, not all. Some bowed facedown to false "gods", or other men. However as some have mentioned in posts above, generally falling/falling backward was a sign of judgement, while kneeling/bowing a sign of worship/submission.

Eli fell backward off his chair when he heard the Ark of the Covenant was captured by the Philistines (1 Sam 4:18).

Falling or sliding backward was also used in a negative way as a symbol of the peoples disobedience of God, a warning of the judgement to come if they contiunued in the disobedience, or a sign of being in bad times, Psalms 36:12, 57:6, 118:13, Jeremiah 2:19, 3:22, 14:7, 15:6, 7:24, Isaiah 3:8, 28:13, 59:14.

And how can I leave out Jude's benediction vs 24-25!

Maybe we better ask the Apostle Paul which direction he fell, just to make sure he was really saved.

Paul... As I pointed out in other post, at the moment Paul fell, he was not saved. Things were slightly different when God wrote to the Church at Ephesus through Paul later though (Eph 3:14)

If we kneel before God, we won't fall for anything

Pete

 

[Ray Berrian]

I would not defend Pastor Benny Hinn types any more than I would Mr. Harold Camping.

The defining Scriptures that allows both of these types, above, to be included in our evangelical Christian faith are these verses.

Anyone who believes truly in his or her heart that Jesus is Christ and that He walked on this earth to redeem sinners so they might after this life is over enter Heaven is approved as a saved person. John the Apostle gives us the circumference so we know who is really saved or at least who God allows to enter Heaven.

Here are the verses: I John 4:2, 15, 16,
I John 5:1, 5, 12a,

A Calvinist professor of mine at Reformed Episcopal Seminary taught me this truth. I remember when the ‘light' went on in my head and heart. Here is the truth. Dr. Kuehner explained I Corinthians 3:11-15. All of these types and including you and me are building our lives on Christ. At the Judgment Seat of Christ our souls and ‘works' will be purified by the fire of His judgment. Some Christians will receive more rewards than others. {Dr. Kuehner did not say this but I will say it]. I believe all of these people have heresy or wrong teaching but that will not keep them out of Heaven. They will be evaluated for their error and good teaching.

To say that Pastor Hinn and Hickey types are in a cult is very incorrect and is unconscionable. These people believe the message that Jesus died for sinners and that they have to believe in Jesus to be saved.

They are no more wrong than Mr. Camping who believes that God autocratically decreed some for Heaven and Hell and that they are by some ‘strange osmosis' absorbed into the faith. Notice is did not say the church because Harold teaches that the church is finished and that only select teachers like him are being used by God in these last days. Not a very humble man like he puts on he is before his radio audience . . . Just think God waited for this ‘unlettered man' to show up in time, to tell us that the churches are of no value now.

If you would listen to him daily you would know about his ‘private interpretations' that he offers every day. He is a disgrace to Family Radio in my opinion as well as some Presbyterian ministers.

He believes that when the Apostle Paul's ship went down and the men were floundering in the sea, that this is the truth that the church, symbolized by the ship, is ended and that we are saved but without the guidance of the church.

Mr. Camping also believe that there is never a Biblical reason and humanly, wise reason for divorce and yet the Word of God makes the allowance because of unfaithfulness as noted in Matthew 5:32. I personally would tell a wife or husband that if the person in their marriage physically or emotionally abuses them, over a period of time, they should end the marriage. I think this is only wise counsel. Mr. Camping believes that if a husband physically abuses the wife that she should stay in the marriage and receive 'the beat down.' I think the man is a bigot and not clear in his thinking.

The above mentioned are a few of his incorrect teachings and yet I would not place him in a cult because I trustingly believe that He loves the Lord.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I would not defend Pastor Benny Hinn types any more than I would Mr. Harold Camping.

You already have. Here is your post from page three of this thread.

Rev. Benny Hinn is predominately a person used of the Lord to heal people; [I Corinthians 12:9b] I have heard him preach the saving message of Christ's Gospel. I don't necessarily believe that every person ‘slain in the Spirit' gets a healing from the Lord, but I am sure they receive a great uplift in the Holy Spirit.

Marilyn Hickey, the radio and television speaker is a person ministering in Christ's Name. I feel that she can preach on the practical Christian life better than anyone I have ever heard.

Remember what Jesus said about people who do not minister the same way we might in our church. In our way of saying it Jesus said, "Any one who is not against Me is on our side." Think about our Lord's words in Mark 9:38-40.

Saul was 'slain in the Spirit' [Acts 9:3-8] when the Lord saved him and he became perhaps the greatest apostle of the Christian faith.

We have to watch what we say; we may be inadvertently 'quenching the Spirit.' [I Thessalonians 5:19]

Ray Berrian, Th.D.

I am not a follower of their ministry but if I happen to see them on television, I'll watch them.

So, do you support them or don't you?

[ November 01, 2002, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Mike McK]

...and again...

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
As far as your documentation of Pastor Benny Hinn--it is a big pile of Calvinistic bias and hatred of ministries that preach 'free grace' to every human being. [Romans 5:18 & I John 2:2] {for example}

We may not like all of his words or ideas but the central teaching of Jesus is at the heart of his teaching. My guess is that some Baptist wrongly believe that healing is not for this dispensation, ever since Jesus returned to heaven. Funny how it is found in I Corinthians 12 & 14 and in James chapter 5. If we deny healing for our day, then maybe 'sanctification' or 'tithing' should also be thrown out because we think it should not interfere with our unique church teachings.

If people believe that Jesus can take away sins, let's not be too critical about some things that we do not agree with from our perspective. In other words, let us not be too narrow minded.

 

[Mike McK]

...and again...((even though his claims to his heritage have beem exposed as yet more lies))

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
You do know that his parents were Jewish and that he converted to the Christian faith, right?
He is probably only half serious about what you said that he said, about being Messianic or something about that idea.

If you and I were in the spotlight like he is, people would rip us apart about our theological views also. Do you agree?

 

[Mike McK]

...and again...((even though his teachings on teh subject are well documented))

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Christ was and is sinless and never had to suffer in Hell for His own sins. To suggest this is blasphemous. It is only because He was sinless that He was able to make atonement for sinners. I very, seriously, doubt that Pastor Hinn believes that He had to make an atonement for His own sins and provide salvation for Himself before He could die for our sure hope.

For someone who doesn't support him, you sure do a good job of supporting him.

[ November 01, 2002, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
To say that Pastor Hinn and Hickey types are in a cult is very incorrect and is unconscionable. These people believe the message that Jesus died for sinners and that they have to believe in Jesus to be saved.

Any teaching that says that Christ's atonement is not sufficient, that butchers the nature of all three members of the Godhead (or nine members, if you're Benny Hinn), that preaches special revelation over scripture is cultic and Christians have no business supporting false teachers or defending their false teachings.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Smokeater,

I have defended both Hinn and Camping in my post dated November 1 6:02 p.m. I think both are Christian.

I noticed, in Calvinistic typical fashion, you never responded to one of my thoughts in the above post.

Let the light in.

Ray Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Saul was converted to Christ and saved on the Damascus Road in Acts 9:1-8. All theologians agree on this point. This is a 'no brainer.'

When do you think Saul was saved on his deathbed in Rome just before he was beheaded?

 

[rsr]

Isn't it interesting that Camp's folks refuse to baptize or partake of The Lord's Supper? Isn't this over the line? I can think of no Christian confession that would take this view. I think Paul, especially, would be surprised to think that Communion had been abolished.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Saul was converted to Christ and saved on the Damascus Road in Acts 9:1-8. All theologians agree on this point. This is a 'no brainer.'

When do you think Saul was saved on his deathbed in Rome just before he was beheaded?

Yes, Saul was saved on the road to Damascus. No, it was not when the light shone on him, or when he fell.

From my October 25th post:
As I previously mentioned, Saul was not a Christian at the time of his experience. Lets look at the man...Acts 7:58, Saul looks after the cloaks of those stoning Stephen. Acts 8:1, Saul approves of Stephen's stoning. Acts 8:3, the NIV says Saul began to destroy the church, KJV there says he made havock of the church, he goes from house to house, throwing Christians in prison. Acts 9:1, Saul is breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples (NIV) or breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord (KJV). He then plans his excursion to Damascus to bring back any Christians he could find to Jerusalem.

The light flashed around him in 9:3, and the same Saul we just looked at was the one who hit the ground in 9:4. It was then he heard the voice of the Lord "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" (NIV) I notice Jesus there said "..why do.." and not "..why did.."

Note what Saul says in vs 5 "Who are you, Lord?". Would a Christian ask that question? Paul also mentions it in his account to Agrippa II in Acts 26:12-19.

Like all texts taken out of context to make pretexts to support the "slain in the spirit" experience, Paul's conversion does no such thing when studied.

We should interpret experiences by the Bible, and not the Bible by experiences.

Pete

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by rsr:
Isn't it interesting that Camp's folks refuse to baptize or partake of The Lord's Supper? Isn't this over the line? I can think of no Christian confession that would take this view. I think Paul, especially, would be surprised to think that Communion had been abolished.

While not "refusing" as such, The Salvation Army does not actively teach baptism or the Lord's supper (very rarely practiced/partaken of by Salvos). It makes one wonder sometimes.

Pete

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Smokeater,

I have defended both Hinn and Camping in my post dated November 1 6:02 p.m. I think both are Christian.

So now you do defend him?

First you do, then you don't, now you do? You need to make up your mind.

The Bible says a double minded man is unstable in all his ways (that's James 1:8, Curtis).

I can't say whether or not Hinn's a Christian, but if he is, how do you reconcile your defending him (first you defend him, then you say you don't, now you say you do) with his false teachings about the atonement, the nature of man, the nature of all three members of the Godhead, and his forays into necormancy, Gnosticism, and New Age and Eastern philosophies?

I noticed, in Calvinistic typical fashion, you never responded to one of my thoughts in the above post.

Isn't it just a bit disingenuous to accuse me of not wanting to respond to one of my thoughts when anytime I try to discuss Benny Hinn, who you brought up, you change the subject to Harold Camping?

I wasn't aware I was a Calvinist. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

[ November 02, 2002, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:


The above mentioned are a few of his incorrect teachings and yet I would not place him in a cult because I trustingly believe that He loves the Lord.

Mormons and J.W.'s say they love the Lord. Are they any less cults because of their love for the Lord?

Jesus said in John, 14:15, "if you love Me, you'll keep My commandments".

Camping, according to you, doesn't keep Jesus' commandments. Hinn certainly doesn't keep Jesus' commandments.

So then, if they don't keep Jesus' commandments, do they really love Him?

 

[blackbird]

The thing about it is--millions of folks are being "hoo-dooed" from the whole bunch of Health and wealth boys--Parsley, Copeland, Dollar, the Roberts duo, "Daddy" Hagin and that whole TBN funny bunny network--its sorta like the World Wrestling Federation--only the above mentioned can't wrestle their way out of wet paper bags!

Clouds without water! What good is a waterless cloud to a farmer crying out for rain!??

Your friend,
Blackbird

 

[Ray Berrian]

Acts9:1-8 is one completed unit of exposition. When Saul fell to the ground because of the closeness of God moving on him, characterized by the ' . . . light from Heaven,' he was in this event saved to sin no more. 'Trembling and astonished Saul said, 'Lord, what will you have me to do?' No unsaved man or woman asks the Lord what He wants with them.

The men with Saul heard a voice but according to Scripture none but Saul/Paul saw 'a man' without doubt Jesus standing in the 'light.' Not that Jesus left Heaven for this appearance, but was perhaps a vision to Saul/Paul.

 

[Ray Berrian]

blackbird,

The Health and Wealth boys have their weak points, but so to are some duped Calvinists who put minors who die into the 'flames of Hell,' that is if they were chosen for so unconscionable eternity.

Hopefully all of the above really and truly believe in Jesus Christ as personal Savior. Without this they will 'split Hell wide open.'

Respecfully,
Ray Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
When Saul fell to the ground because of the closeness of God moving on him, characterized by the ' . . . light from Heaven,' he was in this event saved to sin no more. 'Trembling and astonished Saul said, 'Lord, what will you have me to do?' No unsaved man or woman asks the Lord what He wants with them.

Saul was saved by falling? Oh boy would Mr Hinn etc like that idea. Though however much Mr Hinn may like it does not make it true

No saved man or woman asks the Lord who He is, which IF you read the passages below, (given in NIV & KJV) is exactly what Saul did AFTER he fell.

(Acts 9:3-6 NIV) As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. {4} He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" {5} "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. {6} "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

(Acts 9:3-6 KJV) And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: {4} And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? {5} And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. {6} And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

(Acts 26:13-18 NIV) About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. {14} We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' {15} "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' "'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. {16} 'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. {17} I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them {18} to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

(Acts 26:13-18 KJV) At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. {14} And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. {15} And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. {16} But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; {17} Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, {18} To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Note the KJV "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" comes AFTER "Who are you, Lord?" Saul knew whoever it was he was speaking to was the Lord, but at that stage he didn't know who the Lord is. May I ask which translation leaves out Saul asking "Who are you, Lord?" first?

Pete

 

[Ray Berrian]

Titus_2,

You are right that no one is saved 'by light' or as it were being 'slain in the Spirit.' We are saved by His grace received in our lives. The falling to the ground was because of the Amighty power of God moving close to Saul.

Someone said that he fell off of his horse. I never read in particular a horse.

No matter how you slice it, Saul was saved or converted to Jesus on the Road to Demascus and within the context of Acts 9:1-8. Would you agree?