Hip hop church

[rbell]

I have no problem, FP. It is those who continue to try to justify the lust of the eyes, flesh and heart who have the problem.

It is those who insist that God is pleased with any kind of music as long as it has Christian lyrics that have the problem.

If you disagree with me, that's fine. But I would appreciate your not questioning my walk with God based on musical choices I listen to...just as I do not question your walk in the same respect.

I love my precious Savior deeply, and long to love Him with just a tiniest portion of the depth of His love for me. I do pray over what I allow my mind to ingest. God gives me a peace, or I leave it alone. I have gotten rid of many Christian CD's before, when God would trouble me after I would find out things regarding the singer's lifestyle or theology that troubled me. And since I am instrumental in leading worship for hundreds of teens each week (I speak, play in 2 bands, serve as a "consultant" for a third, and am forming a fourth)--I take my role very, very seriously. Disagree with me? Fine. But I am praying over this stuff, and I will not go against the Sprit's leading in my life on this issue. Please don't insinuate otherwise.

You may not have meant me at all in your statement...but I felt it was important to state my heart here. I would appreciate your recognizing that, even if we do not agree on everything.

BTW, earlier, I did express concerns about the origins of the hip-hop culture and the obstacles it presented. But, I'm afraid the more strident voices and positions won out in the thread.

 

[tinytim]

I have no problem, FP. It is those who continue to try to justify the lust of the eyes, flesh and heart who have the problem.

It is those who insist that God is pleased with any kind of music as long as it has Christian lyrics that have the problem.

You're Baptist right?
Then show us from the Bible that music is evil without lyrics...
It can't be done...
And since I AM BAPTIST.. The Bible is my final authority, not some kooks writing books trying to make money...

And since the Bible is my final authority, and the Bible says to praise him with all kinds of instruments.. I will do what the Bible says...

 

[Filmproducer]

Are they? How do you konw? And is God pleased with it?

I don't know about the church in the OP, but I believe I have already stated that I have seen many Christian rap artists in concert and met them personally. Besides there are people who attack my husband and I for our ministry because we seek to use film as our medium. Know what? I am perfectly confident int he fact that we are pleasing God, as are my brothers and sisters in Christ seeking to proclaim Him with their non-traditional approaches to worship.

Perhaps you are the one full of righteous indignation. You seem to be attacking those who disagree personally. Why? Why can't someone disagree with you without you attacking them?

Who am I attacking personally? I was speaking generalities, and mainly to the senseless bickering Christians seem so embroiled in. It is as if the collective church is more concerned with arguing with one another than praising God and reaching out to the lost. You can disagree all you want.

There is something wordly about it. The question is, Is that bad? I can't speak for their love for the Lord, but we can certainly speak to their methodology. What does it say about our belief about the power of hte gospel when we feel it necessary to couch it in a medium that is so antiChristian? I think form matters.

It says nothing about their belief in the power of the gospel. These Christian rappers and hip hoppers are using the mediums that they are familiar with and reaching out to the their community. There is nothing inherently wrong with their methodology, other than the traditionalists and legalists do not agree.

I think it is sad when people can't disagree about ideas without attacking people like you have. Callign those with concerns "full of righteous indignation" should have never been said. If you like, contribute some ideas. Don't attack people. Realize that some of us are concerned about God's commands and God's holiness.

Whatever Larry. I never attacked anyone personally, and I do consider some of the infighting I have seen within the church, even here, as righteous indignation on both sides of the aisle. I am entitled to my opinion as are you.

 

[CheeseCrackerKidd]

the lyrics don't matter, FP. God's Word says if we regard iniquity in our hearts the Lord will not hear us.

If we are unwilling to separate ourselves from that which is clearly not of God, it does not matter what we write or what we call ourselves.

In the end, we will hear Christ say He never knew us.

 

[rbell]

Immoral music is music that means something immoral. The meaning is in the music itself, the way it is constructed. Read Copland or Bernstein, or a host of others.

This is expounded on a bunch by Bill Gothard, et al.

The genesis of this idea, particulary relating to balance of melody/harmony/rhythm, comes from....interestingly enough......

a pagan greek philosopher (Pythagoras). yep, the "

" guy.

Just a point of interest.

As I've said earlier, it gets mighty thorny when someone is forced to decide the "evilness" of a musical construct...tempo, instruments used, time sig, chords, "balance," etc.

 

[Filmproducer]

the lyrics don't matter, FP. God's Word says if we regard iniquity in our hearts the Lord will not hear us.

If we are unwilling to separate ourselves from that which is clearly not of God, it does not matter what we write or what we call ourselves.

In the end, we will hear Christ say He never knew us.

Now you speak for God? Tell me does Christ know me? Afterall I am in a ministry that uses the entertainment industry as a vehicle. What makes me different from them? For that matter, the souls that have already come to the Lord from my ministry, and the souls won from their ministries are they really even saved at all?

 

[tenor]

Immoral music is music that means something immoral. The meaning is in the music itself, the way it is constructed. Read Copland or Bernstein, or a host of others.

They generally do, but that's not really the issue.

Pastor Larry,

Please don't use circular logic to answer a question. What is a murderer -It is a person who murders. It is best not to use the word in the definition of a word.

Apparently we will never agree on this point. You have not defined "lmmoral" in the way I have asked. You said it was in the construction. Okay, what chord, what melodic structure, what rhythmic structure?

you are correct in saying that Bernstein and Copland in their writings say that music communicates and that there is "good" music and "bad" music (Something of which I fully agree). However, this is a quality issue and not a morality issue. They never use the word morality.

Let me ask another question - Both of these men would probably consider Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique a "good" piece of music. It is programmitic in nature in that it tells the strory of a opium induced ream of the composer. The final movement is entitled Th dream of Witches Sabbath. It is filled with what are now many musical cliches that describe a "dark and stormy night" haunted house type feeling. It also includes a parody of the Dies Irae chant from the Requiem Mass. This did indeed offend the French Roman Catholic audience when this work premiered in the mid 19th C. My question to you is since this work "tells a story" of this dream including this witches coven meeting, is it immoral?

Wold this association have been made if the composer had not written the story and placed the story in the original program?

In general programatic music associations are generally there becuse someone has told this to. Useing the Berlioz example above, You would probably say it makes you think of a haunted house or a cemetary. This comes more from cultural association rather than the music being immoral.

 

[tenor]

As to Gothard, my opinoon is that he is epitome of legalism in the worst sense of the word.

I know many people call it "being separate" "not comforming" etc.

This discussion has been held at length in my Undergrad and grad music classes secular and religious colleges and seminary. The basic outcome - we agreed to disagree.

Personally, I find rap and hip-hop musically weak and poor in construction. It does indeed carry some "baggage."

My questions and reference to 1 Corinthians 9:22

"To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some" (KJV)
"To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some." (NIV) and

Phillippians 1:18

"What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice." (KJV)
"But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice." (NIV)

 

[CheeseCrackerKidd]

Now you speak for God? Tell me does Christ know me? Afterall I am in a ministry that uses the entertainment industry as a vehicle. What makes me different from them? For that matter, the souls that have already come to the Lord from my ministry, and the souls won from their ministries are they really even saved at all?

God's Word speaks for itself, FP. I only quoted His Word. If you have a problem with what I wrote, your problem is with God's Word, not me.

You should not be asking me if God knows you. You should be asking yourself if you know Him.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith.

 

[CheeseCrackerKidd]

As to Gothard, my opinoon is that he is epitome of legalism in the worst sense of the word.

I know many people call it "being separate" "not comforming" etc.

This discussion has been held at length in my Undergrad and grad music classes secular and religious colleges and seminary. The basic outcome - we agreed to disagree.

Personally, I find rap and hip-hop musically weak and poor in construction. It does indeed carry some "baggage."

My questions and reference to 1 Corinthians 9:22

"To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some" (KJV)
"To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some." (NIV) and

Phillippians 1:18

"What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice." (KJV)
"But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice." (NIV)

When Paul wrote these two verses, he was not saying he compromised the gospel by bringing the worldly ways into his witnessing.

 

[Filmproducer]

God's Word speaks for itself, FP. I only quoted His Word. If you have a problem with what I wrote, your problem is with God's Word, not me.

You should not be asking me if God knows you. You should be asking yourself if you know Him.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith.

1. Nice dodge.

2. Guess you missed the sarcasm....


Conversing with you has been fun, but it's pointless, so I'm out. :wavey:

 

[tenor]

When Paul wrote these two verses, he was not saying he compromised the gospel by bringing the worldly ways into his witnessing.

How is using another style "compromising the gospel"?

Is the gospel the content or the style? Please list for me all the "worldly ways" that I must avoid in witnessing. Are there languages I cannot use? Haw about examples? Which examples are acceptable? Must I use certain "Holy church words"? The use of churchcese is probably one of the greatest hindrances to the spread of teh gospel that I know of.

Do we compromise the message? NO!

Apparently to you the message and the medium are one.

I feel this is what Paul is getting us away from.

Yes, in many ways I am being sarcastic amd I do believe in asking the "wild questions." Please forgive me if I have offended you.

 

[CheeseCrackerKidd]

Can't face the truth, eh?

 

[Filmproducer]

Can't face the truth, eh?

Yeah sure, why not. Oh, CCK you've convinved me. I am regenerate. I am reformed as of this moment. :thumbs:

Please.... I have better things to do with my time, that's all. There is very little value in taking up an argument with someone who takes scripture out of context, if taken at all, in order to support a preference.

 

[tinytim]

PEOPLE...

Oh, wait.. wrong thread!!! :laugh:

Now where did that People vs words thread go...

Oh yeah.. found it!

 

[tenor]

Can't face the truth, eh?

No, I have no problem facing the truth.

You have not addressed my question: So, I'll ask it again How is using another style (method) "compromising the gospel"?


I'll go back to the original thought og this OP:

How is the use of hip-hop music (which I personally detest) "compromising' the message (the gospel)?

Please answer yes or no - Is the message and the medium (method) one in the same? Are they separate?

 

[CheeseCrackerKidd]

Using godly lyrics with ungodly music is compromising the gospel.

 

[npetreley]

Using godly lyrics with ungodly music is compromising the gospel.

When the church was still singing solo melodies, they would have considered music ungodly if it had any counterpoint or harmony (read: even the most traditional conservative hymns). We somehow survived that transition.

For what it's worth, I still like hymns more than any other style of music. But I don't consider contemporary praise and worship MUSIC to be ungodly, just many of the lyrics.

 

[tenor]

Using godly lyrics with ungodly music is compromising the gospel.

More is needed than just a simple black/white statement. In spirit, I agree with your statement. What I wish to know is what makes it "ungodly" or "godly."

So, please define "ungodly music?" or even better What is Godly music?

I really am not picking a fight, I honestly want to see where you are coming from so that I can truly undestand your position.

However, I am feeling we must agree to disagree on this one. We seem to not be using teh same set of terms and the same definitions for those terms.

 

[webdog]

They aren't. I daresay that no nightclub is using symphony orchestras as their music of choice. I think you know that. Remember, the issue is not the tune. It is the style of music.

The last time I was at a club was 2002. You? They did...I'm not going to argue with what I heard. It's fact.