Hip hop church

[rbell]

Wow! Can't believe I missed out on this one. Someone above mentioned the Three Hebrew Children and the fiery furnace. It may interest some of you to know that the only place in Scripture where the "all kinds of musick" were employed in worship was in the carnal worship of Nebuchadnezzar's idol.

Right. So flutes & harps & psalterys are evil. Kinda contradicts the Psalms, doesn't it?

Oh well, I guess if you need to prove a pre-determined point, any ol' Scripture will do. Eisegesis, anyone?

 

[Aaron]

Right. So flutes & harps & psalterys are evil. Kinda contradicts the Psalms, doesn't it?

Oh well, I guess if you need to prove a pre-determined point, any ol' Scripture will do. Eisegesis, anyone?

That the Spirit put the cardinal rule of your ministry in the mouth of an idolatrous pagan, don't blame me! :saint:

 

[Filmproducer]

"The message of the gospel demands a vehicle worthy of its glory."
Pastor Larry said that a page or two back amongst these almost 30 pages. I've read through these posts several times and I have read passionate comments from both sides of this issue. On the one hand, there are those who think that hip-hop/rap does not meet our Christian worship and/or performance music standards of holiness. I understand this argument probably (and rightfully) derives from the hip-hop/rap culture overall standard: violence/drugs/all-that-bad-street-stuff.

The other side of the issue, rbell chief among them, is saying that they believe that the hip-hop musical form can be used with Christian lyrics to share the Gospel, thus glorifying God. The musical form, even coming from the roots of the hip-hop scene in general, does not diminish the Message. rbell has made such a heartfelt testimony of his ministry--I fail to see how anyone can find fault with the results he has had.

Each side has presented scripture that backs up their point of view.....I won't quote specific scripture here, but I do want to point out a particular song from a DIFFERENT "street-scene" that will make MY take on this quite well. I don't think it's already been mentioned in this thread, but it bears repeating even if it has:

The beautiful Christmas song, "What Child is This?", which, in the favorite version I have, is sung with two magnificent female voices that alternate verses, sounding like an angelic choir praising the birth of Christ. The words are these:

1. What Child is this who, laid to rest
On Mary's lap is sleeping?
Whom Angels greet with anthems sweet,
While shepherds watch are keeping?

This, this is Christ the King,
Whom shepherds guard and Angels sing;
Haste, haste, to bring Him laud,
The Babe, the Son of Mary.

2. Why lies He in such mean estate,
Where ox and ass are feeding?
Good Christians, fear, for sinners here
The silent Word is pleading.

Nails, spear shall pierce Him through,
The cross be borne for me, for you.
Hail, hail the Word made flesh,
The Babe, the Son of Mary.

3. So bring Him incense, gold and myrrh,
Come peasant, king to own Him;
The King of kings salvation brings,
Let loving hearts enthrone Him.

Raise, raise a song on high,
The virgin sings her lullaby.
Joy, joy for Christ is born,
The Babe, the Son of Mary.

This song was done as this Gospel story in the mid 1800's....prior to that it had been STREET MUSIC. This website http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/what_child_is_this_version_1.htm says this about it:

"Greensleeves," the tune to which "What Child Is This?" is sung, has a long history. It was apparently first licensed or registered in 1580 to a Richard Jones (with a set of lyrics that were not in the least religious, nor even very respectable), but it is probably older still."

So, here we have a particular song...with music AND WORDS...that was STREET MUSIC of the time. Known and used as such, with all its worldliness, and lack of respectability. I have actually heard the ballad performed with one set of "other lyrics" (probably NOT the original ones, because it was more of a political ballad) played to this same tune. I was kind of astonished when I realized that these two songs were actually the same "music" with quite different lyrics. The "Greensleeves" ballad is so-so. The "What Child is This?" song that I associate with glorious angelic voices telling me about the birth of Jesus--an innocent babe who will be pierced and die for ME--is one of the most gloriously beautiful musical compositions I have ever heard. It moves me to tears almost every time I hear it. God is truly glorified.

My point is this...it's been done before. Street music isn't street music when the lyrics are changed. Because when you put the Word in place of the words, that music BECOMES a vehicle worthy of Gospel's Glory....because it is the Word that makes it worthy. Just as Jesus makes me--a MOST unworthy vehicle on my own-- capable of carrying His Message, I think that same Word can/will/does transform that music into a vehicle capable of carrying that same Message. Isn't that what God does through Christ anyway--takes worldy things--things of the devil-- and transforms them? How is it wrong for folks to want to take something that HAS been used for evil and turn into a conduit for God's GOOD--how many PEOPLE have been a "tool for the devil" who are now "weapons in GOD's arsenal" because He transformed them (I know quite a few, personally)? Especially since they (at least the one's we're hearing about in this thread) know that it is GOD doing the transforming and they're praising Him for it all?

Excellent post HOG! :thumbs: Your last paragraph pretty much sums it up. :thumbs:

 

[Pastor Larry]

HOG's post ... the last paragraph especially, continues to demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues. Jesus didn't take inherently evil things and make them good. We have no Christian pornography, or christian adultery. Because we recognize that while some pictures and some sexual activity is perfectly right and holy, not all of it is. The problem is that our spiritual discernment is so low, so tuned to the things of this world, that we are unable to process information in a biblical manner.

 

[Filmproducer]

HOG's post ... the last paragraph especially, continues to demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues.

In your humble opinion, I'm sure....

Jesus didn't take inherently evil things and make them good.

Neither you, or anyone else, has shown how rap or hip-hop music is inherently evil. You, yourself stated that "there are many good secular songs". Well, there are secular rap/hip hop songs that are good. Have you ever heard of The Roots? Didn't think so....

We have no Christian pornography, or christian adultery. Because we recognize that while some pictures and some sexual activity is perfectly right and holy, not all of it is.

The same can be said for a lot of things, if not everything. By that same logic there should not be Christian entertainment, such as movies, or Christian stand up comedy, etc. Frankly this line of thinking is just as strange as conversing about women coming to church in a bikini and what said church should do about it.

The problem is that our spiritual discernment is so low, so tuned to the things of this world, that we are unable to process information in a biblical manner.

So if we do not spiritually discern as Pastor Larry does, our discernment is low and tuned to the ways of the world? I'm Sorry, but that's pure Hogwash.

 

[Cutter]

So if we do not spiritually discern as Pastor Larry does, our discernment is low and tuned to the ways of the world? I'm Sorry, but that's pure Hogwash.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
No matter how you dress up the fleshly things of the world they are still of the flesh.

 

[Hopeful]

HOG's post ... the last paragraph especially, continues to demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues. Jesus didn't take inherently evil things and make them good. We have no Christian pornography, or christian adultery. Because we recognize that while some pictures and some sexual activity is perfectly right and holy, not all of it is. The problem is that our spiritual discernment is so low, so tuned to the things of this world, that we are unable to process information in a biblical manner.

I'm sorry you feel this way, but I don't think I'm demonstrating any such thing in my post--I'm simply disagreeing with your opinion. My fundamental understanding of this issue is that it's an issue because some Christians are upset because "worldly-sounding music" is being given Christian lyrics and the resulting new song (same tune, new Words) are being used by other Christians to reach the lost "where they are". That's exactly the point that has been argued on this thread for all these pages.

You are arguing that the music (without lyrics of any kind) is inherently evil. And I was pointing out that this is not the first time in history that God (through His followers) put new Words to old, worldy music and made it something new and holy. GOD took the taint of the world off that music (the associations with worldliness and sin) and purified it to be a vessel that carried His Message. To say that it cannot be done now or is not being done now would be to deny that it is possible to do--and that has already been proven to be "not the case" in history.

I understand your point that hip hop/rap music is wretched sounding, and I can certainly understand that you would believe the music (without the lyrics) is evil because of the association with the accompanying culture. As has been pointed out endlessly already, the "evil sound" that most music has to you or anyone is because of the association that particular musical style has with the world in which it sprang up. THIS is the point that the two sides of this argument will never resolve; if I believe that most music is inherently neutral until assigned an associated emotion and you believe that music is inherently good or evil without any corresponding previously assigned/designated emotion and no cultural context for reference, then we can never agree that hip-hop can be used for good instead of evil (or NOT).

But please don't misunderstand MY point--I DO believe most music is basically neutral on its own, without cultural context or composer's instructions or lyrics to impose an overarching "morality" upon it; thus lumping this into a discussion likening it to pornography is disingenuous, because pornography DOES have cultural context and a composer's "instructions" involved in it. When hip-hop music has lyrics that are worldly or sinfilled, it ALSO has "instructions" written into it, so we could obviously call it worldy and unChristian. But when the "instructions" in the form of lyrics are rewritten with the Gospel message, the music itself is transformed. And I will stand on the top of any mountain anywhere and shout that Jesus DOES take inherently evil things and make them good....He does that every day when He imparts HIS goodness into whatever vessel He chooses to carry His story to the lost.

So I guess we shall continue to disagree. But I just wish everyone wouldn't bash the other about the head so harshly in their disagreement. And I would personally like to thank everyone who is trying to reach the lost in an environment where I personally fear to tread. May God guide ALL your choices--not just the music. :saint:

 

[4boys4joys]

All Kinds of Music ?

The reference to the fiery furnace was to simply point out that they knew the difference between worship music and the music that called the people to worship idols. Not to say that the instruments are evil but that a certain melody had to be played in order for people to know how to respond. All about distinction.If I put candles on a cake and sang Take me Out to the Ballgame my THREE year old son would know it was weird. All I was saying is they obviously had to have had a specific melody that preceeded the worship of the calf. Music has specific purposes in all areas of life that are distinct and noticeable. Why not so in our churches?:BangHead:

 

[Pastor Larry]

In your humble opinion, I'm sure....

Actually, it wasn’t an opinion. There is a fundamental misunderstanding and he demonstrated it.

Neither you, or anyone else, has shown how rap or hip-hop music is inherently evil. You, yourself stated that "there are many good secular songs". Well, there are secular rap/hip hop songs that are good. Have you ever heard of The Roots? Didn't think so....

Here is the fundamental misunderstanding again. Rap/hip hop is a style of music that is at the very least associationally incompatible with Christian worship. I can’t imagine that is even questionable by anyone without an agenda.

By that same logic there should not be Christian entertainment, such as movies, or Christian stand up comedy, etc.

I tend to agree.

Frankly this line of thinking is just as strange as conversing about women coming to church in a bikini and what said church should do about it.

A great example. Don’t we all recognize that coming to church in a bikini is immodest and inappropriate and therefore wrong? Can there really be any discussion about whether a woman should go to church wearing what amounts to designer underclothes bearing her flesh that only her husband should see?

So if we do not spiritually discern as Pastor Larry does, our discernment is low and tuned to the ways of the world? I'm Sorry, but that's pure Hogwash.

I think that is hogwash too. I have never set myself up as the standard and you should know that. I have simply pointed out what some people don’t want to recognize.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I'm sorry you feel this way

Don’t be. First, it is not about my feelings. Second, I don’t feel anyway about it.

I'm simply disagreeing with your opinion.

I didn’t offer an opinion. I pointed out that fact that rap/hip hop is a style of music associated with a lifestyle that is inherently incompatible with Christianity. It grew out of that lifestyle because of what the lifestyle was. It is still intimately connected with that lifestyle.

My fundamental understanding of this issue is that it's an issue because some Christians are upset because "worldly-sounding music" is being given Christian lyrics and the resulting new song (same tune, new Words) are being used by other Christians to reach the lost "where they are". That's exactly the point that has been argued on this thread for all these pages.

No, that isn’t the point. First, there is no evidence that rap is responsible for reaching people where they are. The gospel reaches people. Second, It is not about reaching people at all. It is about being pleasing to God by putting his message in a container that is appropriate to the message.

You are arguing that the music (without lyrics of any kind) is inherently evil. And I was pointing out that this is not the first time in history that God (through His followers) put new Words to old, worldy music and made it something new and holy. GOD took the taint of the world off that music (the associations with worldliness and sin) and purified it to be a vessel that carried His Message. To say that it cannot be done now or is not being done now would be to deny that it is possible to do--and that has already been proven to be "not the case" in history.

You didn’t read closely. No one has ever taken worldly music and make it good. Some took good music that was used by the world and used it for good.

I understand your point that hip hop/rap music is wretched sounding,

I never said that. Personally, I think the rap style is intriguing.

But please don't misunderstand MY point--I DO believe most music is basically neutral on its own, without cultural context or composer's instructions or lyrics to impose an overarching "morality"

It’s not. There is no neutrality in the world. It is either good or evil. The world may borrow from something good and use it for bad reasons. But it is still good.

But when the "instructions" in the form of lyrics are rewritten with the Gospel message, the music itself is transformed.

No, the music is the same. Remember what the music is and you will see this.

And I will stand on the top of any mountain anywhere and shout that Jesus DOES take inherently evil things and make them good....He does that every day when He imparts HIS goodness into whatever vessel He chooses to carry His story to the lost.

Give us a biblical example of taking something inherently evil and making it good.

Have you read John Makujina’s book Measuring the Music? You should. It is one of the best books on this topic.

 

[tinytim]

Give us a biblical example of taking something inherently evil and making it good.

It happens every time someone get's saved....:laugh: :wavey:

Ok, Ok, I know you were not talking about people, but things...


The problem is, what things are inherently evil?
It is how we use things that make them evil.

A car is not evil.
A computer is not evil.
A tv is not evil.
It is how we use them.

Music is a thing, therefore it cannot be evil.

Only creatures that have a will to choose good and evil can be evil.
God looked at his creation and called it good.
Only when Man sinned did evil enter the human race.


Not even animals are evil... (well, with the exception of CATS!!!) lol
As a matter of fact, only people and fallen angels can be evil.

Everything else is a tool.

Tools that evil humans can use for evil.
Tools that good humans can use for good.

Music is a tool.

 

[Rufus_1611]

It happens every time someone get's saved....:laugh: :wavey:

Ok, Ok, I know you were not talking about people, but things...


The problem is, what things are inherently evil?
It is how we use things that make them evil.

A car is not evil.
A computer is not evil.
A tv is not evil.
It is how we use them.

Music is a thing, therefore it cannot be evil.

Only creatures that have a will to choose good and evil can be evil.
God looked at his creation and called it good.
Only when Man sinned did evil enter the human race.


Not even animals are evil... (well, with the exception of CATS!!!) lol
As a matter of fact, only people and fallen angels can be evil.

Everything else is a tool.

Tools that evil humans can use for evil.
Tools that good humans can use for good.

Music is a tool.

Things that are evil...

• Pentagrams
• Twisted crucifixes
• Graven images
• Idols
• Most Disney movies
• Synagogues of satan
• Dagon fish hats
• Albums recorded by Brittney Spears or Barry Manilow
• Mormon temples
• Rune letters
• Crystal balls
• Harry Potter books
• Rock and roll music

"Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you." - Joshua 23:5​

Oh and animals can be evil as well...

"And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat; an evil beast hath devoured him; Joseph is without doubt rent in pieces." - Genesis 37:33​

"So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee: and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it." - Ezekiel 5:17​

 

[Pastor Larry]

It happens every time someone get's saved....

No it doesn't. Remember, the comment was about things that are "inherently" evil. Man is not inherently evil. All men are sinners, corrupted by original sin and their own sin. But Adam was a human who, at one point, was not evil. Jesus was a human who was not evil. So salvation is not taking something inherently evil and making it good. It is taking something that was intended to be good and holy and restoring it to what God intended it to be.

The problem is, what things are inherently evil?

A number of things. This deals with the bigger issue of aesthetics, holiness, and the like.

It is how we use things that make them evil.

In some cases yes, but not in all. There is no good way to use adultery. It is inherently evil. There is no good way to use pornography. It is inherently evil.

Music is a thing, therefore it cannot be evil.

No, it can be.

Only creatures that have a will to choose good and evil can be evil.

No, adultery cannot choose to be anything. It is inherently wrong.

Music is a tool.

Yes and it can be used for evil or good depending on what it is. Remember, the discussion is not about "music" per se, but about styles of music.

 

[tinytim]

Things that are evil...

• Pentagrams
• Twisted crucifixes
• Graven images
• Idols
• Most Disney movies
• Synagogues of satan
• Dagon fish hats
• Albums recorded by Brittney Spears or Barry Manilow
• Mormon temples
• Rune letters
• Crystal balls
• Harry Potter books
• Rock and roll music

"Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you." - Joshua 23:5​

Oh and animals can be evil as well...

"And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat; an evil beast hath devoured him; Joseph is without doubt rent in pieces." - Genesis 37:33​

"So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee: and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it." - Ezekiel 5:17​

All the things listed are either influenced by humans, or have had a meaning assigned to them by humans...

As for the animals, I will look into those references.

 

[npetreley]

"Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you." - Joshua 23:5​

Oh and animals can be evil as well...

"And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat; an evil beast hath devoured him; Joseph is without doubt rent in pieces." - Genesis 37:33​

"So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee: and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it." - Ezekiel 5:17​

Here, folks, is a prime example of why you shouldn't read or quote from the KJV unless you understand the difference between early modern English and today's English. The word "evil" no longer means the same thing as it did to the KJV translators. If you KJVOs want to argue otherwise, then defend the verse that says God creates "moral" evil.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Main Entry: 1evil
Pronunciation: 'E-v&l, Britain often and US also 'E-(")vil
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): evil·er or evil·ler; evil·est or evil·lest
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English yfel; akin to Old High German ubil evil
1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>
2 a archaic : INFERIOR b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE <an evil odor> c :

.

 

[tinytim]

In some cases yes, but not in all. There is no good way to use adultery. It is inherently evil. There is no good way to use pornography. It is inherently evil.


No, adultery cannot choose to be anything. It is inherently wrong.

Adultery and Pornography is the misuse of the the thing called Sex.
Sex is not evil...
But is misused by evil humans.

This is the point I am trying to make.

Music is not evil, but is misused by evil humans... (ex. thanks to Rufus, Britney Spears)

What makes Music evil?
The way it's played? If so, who is playing it? And what makes one way evil, and another not?
Where do we get out guidelines?

 

[tinytim]

Here, folks, is a prime example of why you shouldn't read or quote from the KJV unless you understand the difference between early modern English and today's English. The word "evil" no longer means the same thing as it did to the KJV translators.



Main Entry: 1evil
Pronunciation: 'E-v&l, Britain often and US also 'E-(")vil
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): evil·er or evil·ler; evil·est or evil·lest
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English yfel; akin to Old High German ubil evil
1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>
2 a archaic : INFERIOR b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE <an evil odor> c :

.

Thanks... That explains why some animals were called, "evil"
EX... a grizzley bear is not evil... but in the language of KJV, it is because it causes discomfort...

But it is just acting the way God designed it.

 

[tinytim]

Main Entry: 1evil
Pronunciation: 'E-v&l, Britain often and US also 'E-(")vil
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): evil·er or evil·ler; evil·est or evil·lest
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English yfel; akin to Old High German ubil evil
1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>
2 a archaic : INFERIOR b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE <an evil odor> c :

.

Using the 2nd definition.. I guess I could agree that some music is evil...

Bluegrass causes me discomfort and I am repulsed by it!!! :laugh: :laugh:

Just jokin! Don't take me seriously. As if anyone ever does!!!

 

[Rufus_1611]

Adultery and Pornography is the misuse of the the thing called Sex.
Sex is not evil...
But is misused by evil humans.

This is the point I am trying to make.

Music is not evil, but is misused by evil humans... (ex. thanks to Rufus, Britney Spears)

What makes Music evil?
The way it's played? If so, who is playing it? And what makes one way evil, and another not?
Where do we get out guidelines?

Are you going to hold to your point that nothing is evil?

 

[npetreley]

Using the 2nd definition.. I guess I could agree that some music is evil...

Bluegrass causes me discomfort and I am repulsed by it!!! :laugh: :laugh:

Just jokin! Don't take me seriously. As if anyone ever does!!!

Using that same reasoning, we could also claim that some participants of BB are evil. I'm sure some people would claim I'm evil to them. :laugh: