Hip hop church

[npetreley]

The last time I was at a club was 2002. You? They did...I'm not going to argue with what I heard. It's fact.

I remember seeing the Woody Allen movie "Love and Death" in the theaters. Woody Allen used all Sergei Prokofiev music for the movie, probably because it was a spoof on Russian novels. One of the things I recall more than anything else was that when the name Sergei Prokofiev flashed on screen, it got a standing ovation. Obviously there were a lot of classical music, Prokofiev in particular, fans there that night.

That doesn't relate to much, but what you said reminded me of that moment because the connection between a movie theater, Woody Allen, and Prokofiev fans didn't seem obvious at the time.

 

[D28guy]

Pastor Larry,

I said...

"

You do understand dont you that many...and I mean MANY...of the great "Hymns of the Faith" that have been around since the time of Wesley and the other great hymn writers of those days were songs and melodys that came straight out of the pubs and drinking establishments over on the other side of the pond?

All they did was put new words to them."

And you said...

" This is simply not true. It is an oft repeated argument that has no actual merit to it. Among others, Paul S. Jones addressed this argument in his recent book entitled (I believe) Singing and Making Melody in the Church" or perhaps just "Singing in the Church." Jones' book is fair, not great. But he does address this argument and show it to be false.

So let's dispense with its use."

Well......its come up many times on other threads and web-sites, and every time people have questioned it someone has produced documentation proving it to be true. And I've heard it from very credible pastors and teachers who have looked into it and found it to be true.

I'll have to stick with the evidence I have seen and heard and continue to believe it to be true.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Shot Gun Willie, (or anyone else)

You said...

"That's because rap music hasn't created as much damage in today's churches as RW has. Rap music will probably catch up, I can't wait, I have just been waiting to begin wearing my Gold Mercedes Symbol and chain again."

I have seen several references to RW. What does RW stand for?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[rbell]

Shot Gun Willie, (or anyone else)

You said...



I have seen several references to RW. What does RW stand for?

Thanks,

Mike

Rick Warren of Saddleback

 

[D28guy]

Ahhhh. Now I've got it.

Thanks! :wavey:

Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

This is expounded on a bunch by Bill Gothard, et al.

The genesis of this idea, particulary relating to balance of melody/harmony/rhythm, comes from....interestingly enough......

a pagan greek philosopher (Pythagoras). yep, the "http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/a...e437fba6ee.png " guy.

Just a point of interest.

As I've said earlier, it gets mighty thorny when someone is forced to decide the "evilness" of a musical construct...tempo, instruments used, time sig, chords, "balance," etc

I wouldn't trust Bill Gothard. But this has been long recognized by musicians, long before it became popular to justify "whatever goes."

I won't comment on everything but just make a fewclosing comments here.

As for Luther and barroom tunes, it simply isn't true. Documentation to support has been cooked up.

The overriding issue here seems to be "whatever works." There seems little interest in discernment, or in the biblical teaching on the power of the gospel. There seems little knowledge about the meaning of form, and why particular messages have been wedded to particular forms. There seems an unwillingness to let Christ dictate every area of life, and to trust in the simple power of the gospel.

No one is going to go to hell because the church didn't use rap. We need to grasp that and depend on it.

The message of the gospel demands a vehicle worthy of its glory.

The fact that some music is wrong or immoral does not mean that everyone must use 19th century hymns. There are a great many of those that are just stupid or cheesy, just like modern music. But so long as worship is determined by "What I like" we will always have issues.

Someone asks "Show me this in the Bible." The Bible clearly teaches that spiritually mature people are able to take the Bible and draw out the logical implications (cf Heb 5:11; Gal 5:21). The cry of "Bible only" does not legitimately lead to the position of "If the Bible doesn't say it then I don't have to listen." The Bible teaches us how to apply God's word to life. The more we know God, the more we will turn away from vehicles that are incompatible with his character.

 

[ShotGunWillie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by D28guy
Shot Gun Willie, (or anyone else)

You said...



I have seen several references to RW. What does RW stand for?

Thanks,

Mike


Rick Warren of Saddleback

I was keeping up with the OP not trying to derail it, I wasn't talking about Rick Warren nor Saddleback, I was mentioning RocaWear (RW). The clothing line developed by Jay-Z (famous rapper, producer in NY) in the mid-90s. Sorry I through you guys off, but I wasn't trying to derail the thread at all.

 

[jshurley04]

Cult

When you use the word "cult", do you mean...

Cult (k?lt) n .[F. culte, L. cultus care, culture, fr. colere to cultivate. Cf. Cultus.]

1. Attentive care; homage; worship.
...
2. A system of religious belief and worship.

(Source: Webster's 1913)​

...or do you have another definition in mind?

This is the first definition at the dictionary page of answers.com This is what I was referring to.

cult (kŭlt)

n.

1. 1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
   2. The followers of such a religion or sect.

 

[4boys4joys]

Personal Preference It was not.

What you described above is your personal preference. There is a very thin line between preference and distiction. Distinction, as you use it here, has bias based on an individuals idea of what "Church" music should sound/be like.

I am sure when Amazing Grace was written, it was not accepted every where. Yet it is fairly globally accepted today. Why, distinction? Some Churches sing it fast, other slow, some with no music and others with full orchestra but the song is accepted, why, not because of the beat or the tempo but because the song itself is accepted and those who sing it sing from the heart and in praise.

I agree that the Church has to be careful not to conform to the world. I believe that statement has more to do with the acceptance of sin and sinful lifestyle then the beat of the music or even the instruments we play.

What I described was not my personal prefence at all.I posed a question that no one has seemed to answer. It is not my personal preference that music is not like the world it is God's. If that were not so why where Shadrach,Meschach and Abednego even in the Bible. If there is no distinction then tell me why the furnace of fire for not bowing to the music of idols.It must mean something to God if he put it in his word.

God help us when we put the music that is offered up to idols in the house of God. There was an obivous difference to those three men of God. What happened to the Christians of today. There is a huge line between preference and distinction. You can hear the difference between rock music and rap you can hear the difference between jazz and classical. Ask a child and I bet they can tell you what worship should sound like. I wish that we could stop bringing the worldliness into the church and just bring the world who needs to be saved. If they won't come just because of God's word then does that mean the Bible has lost it's power.No. We have just lost the backbone to rely on it and it alone.

 

[4boys4joys]

I am glad you liked it. CheeseCrackerKidd.

 

[Archeryaddict]

this horse was dead 20 pages ago

it is starting stink up the place http://forums.maxima.org/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif

 

[rbell]

What I described was not my personal prefence at all.I posed a question that no one has seemed to answer. It is not my personal preference that music is not like the world it is God's. If that were not so why where Shadrach,Meschach and Abednego even in the Bible. If there is no distinction then tell me why the furnace of fire for not bowing to the music of idols.It must mean something to God if he put it in his word.

God help us when we put the music that is offered up to idols in the house of God. There was an obivous difference to those three men of God. What happened to the Christians of today. There is a huge line between preference and distinction. You can hear the difference between rock music and rap you can hear the difference between jazz and classical. Ask a child and I bet they can tell you what worship should sound like. I wish that we could stop bringing the worldliness into the church and just bring the world who needs to be saved. If they won't come just because of God's word then does that mean the Bible has lost it's power.No. We have just lost the backbone to rely on it and it alone.

The music was not what Shadrach and the boys bowed to...it was the idol. The music was simply the signal. Just as a church bell could call people to worship, or it could simply be announcing the time. Same sound, different purpose. You're reading into the text something it does not say.

Your entire second paragraph is simply personal preference. Ask the children in our church what worship sounds like. Then go ask some African Christian children in Nigeria. You'll get different answers. Who's right?

I'll give you our last month's playlist, if you'd like. Find a song that has been offered to idols, and we'll drop it.

 

[Hopeful]

"The message of the gospel demands a vehicle worthy of its glory."
Pastor Larry said that a page or two back amongst these almost 30 pages. I've read through these posts several times and I have read passionate comments from both sides of this issue. On the one hand, there are those who think that hip-hop/rap does not meet our Christian worship and/or performance music standards of holiness. I understand this argument probably (and rightfully) derives from the hip-hop/rap culture overall standard: violence/drugs/all-that-bad-street-stuff.

The other side of the issue, rbell chief among them, is saying that they believe that the hip-hop musical form can be used with Christian lyrics to share the Gospel, thus glorifying God. The musical form, even coming from the roots of the hip-hop scene in general, does not diminish the Message. rbell has made such a heartfelt testimony of his ministry--I fail to see how anyone can find fault with the results he has had.

Each side has presented scripture that backs up their point of view.....I won't quote specific scripture here, but I do want to point out a particular song from a DIFFERENT "street-scene" that will make MY take on this quite well. I don't think it's already been mentioned in this thread, but it bears repeating even if it has:

The beautiful Christmas song, "What Child is This?", which, in the favorite version I have, is sung with two magnificent female voices that alternate verses, sounding like an angelic choir praising the birth of Christ. The words are these:

1. What Child is this who, laid to rest
On Mary's lap is sleeping?
Whom Angels greet with anthems sweet,
While shepherds watch are keeping?

This, this is Christ the King,
Whom shepherds guard and Angels sing;
Haste, haste, to bring Him laud,
The Babe, the Son of Mary.

2. Why lies He in such mean estate,
Where ox and ass are feeding?
Good Christians, fear, for sinners here
The silent Word is pleading.

Nails, spear shall pierce Him through,
The cross be borne for me, for you.
Hail, hail the Word made flesh,
The Babe, the Son of Mary.

3. So bring Him incense, gold and myrrh,
Come peasant, king to own Him;
The King of kings salvation brings,
Let loving hearts enthrone Him.

Raise, raise a song on high,
The virgin sings her lullaby.
Joy, joy for Christ is born,
The Babe, the Son of Mary.

This song was done as this Gospel story in the mid 1800's....prior to that it had been STREET MUSIC. This website http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/what_child_is_this_version_1.htm says this about it:

"Greensleeves," the tune to which "What Child Is This?" is sung, has a long history. It was apparently first licensed or registered in 1580 to a Richard Jones (with a set of lyrics that were not in the least religious, nor even very respectable), but it is probably older still."

So, here we have a particular song...with music AND WORDS...that was STREET MUSIC of the time. Known and used as such, with all its worldliness, and lack of respectability. I have actually heard the ballad performed with one set of "other lyrics" (probably NOT the original ones, because it was more of a political ballad) played to this same tune. I was kind of astonished when I realized that these two songs were actually the same "music" with quite different lyrics. The "Greensleeves" ballad is so-so. The "What Child is This?" song that I associate with glorious angelic voices telling me about the birth of Jesus--an innocent babe who will be pierced and die for ME--is one of the most gloriously beautiful musical compositions I have ever heard. It moves me to tears almost every time I hear it. God is truly glorified.

My point is this...it's been done before. Street music isn't street music when the lyrics are changed. Because when you put the Word in place of the words, that music BECOMES a vehicle worthy of Gospel's Glory....because it is the Word that makes it worthy. Just as Jesus makes me--a MOST unworthy vehicle on my own-- capable of carrying His Message, I think that same Word can/will/does transform that music into a vehicle capable of carrying that same Message. Isn't that what God does through Christ anyway--takes worldy things--things of the devil-- and transforms them? How is it wrong for folks to want to take something that HAS been used for evil and turn into a conduit for God's GOOD--how many PEOPLE have been a "tool for the devil" who are now "weapons in GOD's arsenal" because He transformed them (I know quite a few, personally)? Especially since they (at least the one's we're hearing about in this thread) know that it is GOD doing the transforming and they're praising Him for it all?

 

[4boys4joys]

?

The music was not what Shadrach and the boys bowed to...it was the idol. The music was simply the signal. Just as a church bell could call people to worship, or it could simply be announcing the time. Same sound, different purpose. You're reading into the text something it does not say.

Your entire second paragraph is simply personal preference. Ask the children in our church what worship sounds like. Then go ask some African Christian children in Nigeria. You'll get different answers. Who's right?

I'll give you our last month's playlist, if you'd like. Find a song that has been offered to idols, and we'll drop it.

Just answer this simple question. Do you believe that all styles of music are OK for worship as long as the lyrics include God ?

So in that case all types of clothing is ok. I can wear a bikini if it has scripture on it and that would be fine too. As far reading into the text I do not think I was. They knew the music for the idol so therefore they knew when not to go because there was a musical distinction was the point I was making. That is the music that calls you to go to the idols, not what we worship with. If there where no difference they would not have been able to choose when to go or not.

 

[rbell]

Just answer this simple question. Do you believe that all styles of music are OK for worship as long as the lyrics include God ?

So in that case all types of clothing is ok. I can wear a bikini if it has scripture on it and that would be fine too. As far reading into the text I do not think I was. They knew the music for the idol so therefore they knew when not to go because there was a musical distinction was the point I was making. That is the music that calls you to go to the idols, not what we worship with. If there where no difference they would not have been able to choose when to go or not.

As I posted somewhere else: I'm very careful about declaring, "That's not of God." The Pharisees witnessed a God-event in Matthew 12, attributed it to Satan, and Jesus flamed them good.

1 Corinthians 6:12...

12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

It would have been unwise for me to try and use the music I use where I serve now at the very, very traditional church I served years ago. It would have been a point of contention. Where I am now, the style itself is not a stumbling block. Besides that, we use multiple styles here...and make sure we do not lose the richness of the great hymns of the faith...while showing that our God is doing a new thing.

I do not believe that all Christian music songs are worship songs. But it has more to do with the subject matter. Steven Curtis Chapman does a great song about love, sung at weddings for years: I Will Be Here. I doubt I'd ever use it in a worship service. Why? Listen carefully, don't misunderstand: it's not a worship song...it's talking about a relationship (in a Godly context). Christian? Wholesome? Yes...but not explicitly God-focused. So just because it's Christian doesn't mean it's a worship song. The same would go for "Turn Your Radio On," if you want to leave contemporary out of it.

Sorry, but you're wrong on the Daniel passage. The music is not the issue in that passage. It is the "attention getter." If you were to prove that the music was the problem, you would have to show a distinction between that and Hebrew music. And you can't.


Your interpretation would also make that music mentioned:

cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick,

other parts of Scripture mention praising God with the harp and psaltery. Sorry, but you've read your own bias into the passage.

If I came to your church as music minister or pastor, I would not "shove down your throat" this music stuff. That would be wrong. We should all be focused on honoring God, not pushing down who we deem our opponent. That being said...what we do at my church is bathed in prayer, God is honoring it, and He is blessing it. Priesthood of the believer at work.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Street music isn't street music when the lyrics are changed. Because when you put the Word in place of the words, that music BECOMES a vehicle worthy of Gospel's Glory....because it is the Word that makes it worthy.

STreet music (I am not sure what the means exactly) is still street music not matter what words you put with it. You acknowledge this tacitly by noting that there is "music" and there are "words." We are here talking about music, not words.

Greensleeves is a great example of one thing that I have already said. There are two levels of meaning in music: inherent and associational. Greensleeves is a great example of associational meaning. I am not sure about your story, and it is irrelevant because the music is not bad music. It is a style that is conducive to Chrisitan worship that has lost its association with Ralph Vaughn Williams and others who used it.

But certain styles are inherently or presently associationally incompatible with Christian worship. Rap is a current example. EVen if one could make the case that it is not inherently bad music, it is at the very least associationally incompatible with Christian worship.

So don't conflate issues or confuse the matter more.

 

[npetreley]

STreet music (I am not sure what the means exactly) is still street music not matter what words you put with it.

Some of today's most revered hymns are based on secular songs (no, not drinking songs as some people suggest, but secular, nevertheless). For us, they stopped being secular songs when the words changed.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Some of today's most revered hymns are based on secular songs (no, not drinking songs as some people suggest, but secular, nevertheless). For us, they stopped being secular songs when the words changed.

Maybe, but irrelevant since the argument is not that all secular songs are bad. THere are many good secular songs. WE have to question associations, but some are perfectly fine.

AGain, there are two issues: inherent meaning and associational meaning. A style that is inherently wrong can never be acceptable in the worship of God. A style (or tune) that is associated with something ungodly may not be acceptable depending on how close the association is.

 

[4boys4joys]

Wow !!

As I posted somewhere else: I'm very careful about declaring, "That's not of God." The Pharisees witnessed a God-event in Matthew 12, attributed it to Satan, and Jesus flamed them good.

1 Corinthians 6:12...


It would have been unwise for me to try and use the music I use where I serve now at the very, very traditional church I served years ago. It would have been a point of contention. Where I am now, the style itself is not a stumbling block. Besides that, we use multiple styles here...and make sure we do not lose the richness of the great hymns of the faith...while showing that our God is doing a new thing.

I do not believe that all Christian music songs are worship songs. But it has more to do with the subject matter. Steven Curtis Chapman does a great song about love, sung at weddings for years: I Will Be Here. I doubt I'd ever use it in a worship service. Why? Listen carefully, don't misunderstand: it's not a worship song...it's talking about a relationship (in a Godly context). Christian? Wholesome? Yes...but not explicitly God-focused. So just because it's Christian doesn't mean it's a worship song. The same would go for "Turn Your Radio On," if you want to leave contemporary out of it.

Sorry, but you're wrong on the Daniel passage. The music is not the issue in that passage. It is the "attention getter." If you were to prove that the music was the problem, you would have to show a distinction between that and Hebrew music. And you can't.


Your interpretation would also make that music mentioned:


other parts of Scripture mention praising God with the harp and psaltery. Sorry, but you've read your own bias into the passage.

If I came to your church as music minister or pastor, I would not "shove down your throat" this music stuff. That would be wrong. We should all be focused on honoring God, not pushing down who we deem our opponent. That being said...what we do at my church is bathed in prayer, God is honoring it, and He i s blessing it. Priesthood of the believer at work.

First of all I have never said that you were wrong about anything you have said on the subject or to me personally. You say here that you would not shove any thing down my throat but I guess telling me I am wrong is OK. I am not trying to read a bias into the passage. I will make this point as a general statement. Certain types of music are set apart for different occasions and that does include worship. When people go to church they expect to hear "church" music.

I do not know if I will have more to say if you reply yet again and I am very open to you saying I am wrong for my bias even though this whole thread is based on bias and preference anyway. And as my pastor I would expect you to make Godly decisions based on scrpiture about the music and every other part of the worship. Saying that you would not "shove down your throat" this music stuff is a statement that perplexes me. I do not see you as an opponent in anything. I just see you as someone who has a different opinion about music in the church.

My personal opinion (which is not worth much in the broad scheme of things) is that scripture directs me to believe that God would like our music as well as many areas of life such as character,lifestyle,friends ect.. to be peculiar and different from the world so that the focus is on him. Does hip hop music do this ? My mottto is When in doubt, don't and I think I will just stick with that. Call me wrong,biased,right-winged,fundamental even an actual independent Baptist. I won't even get offended in fact I will rejoice like a good soldier should. My personal testimony. I grew up around that music I went to Harvest crusade and every other crusade just to dance in "Jesus" name. I made so many professions and got baptized so many times that I should of brought soap. I saw that as no different than the radio yet no salvation resulted.

It was when I got alone with God and his word, just him and I alone that I saw my need for a saviour. Now I am not saying that you can't worship to hip hop or any other music but I will say this. You can put new words to it, but for someone who danced to it in the nightclubs, when they hear it in church it takes them right back. They can remember the sin and shame they once knew. They may even get saved but when the hard times come it will be alot easier for them to change the words and run from God's will because they hear that music in church.

All personal but maybe it will make some think about this as a spritual battle. I would be careful of declaring that anything something is not of God, but I will say that a hip hop church is not what God has for me. I worshipped that music before I got saved why should I do it after. If you changed jobs and you went from Mc Donald's to Burger King would you show up in the first day in your old uniform ? Well I went from Mc Hip Hop to the King and I don't want to go back.

 

[Aaron]

Wow! Can't believe I missed out on this one. Someone above mentioned the Three Hebrew Children and the fiery furnace. It may interest some of you to know that the only place in Scripture where the "all kinds of musick" were employed in worship was in the carnal worship of Nebuchadnezzar's idol.