History of Dispensational Theology and Israel

[Lukasaurus]

It doesn't say a word in Hebrews 11 about Moses being justified.

It says he did many things by faith. It's a chapter on faith. But the word justified, or saved or redeemed does not appear in that chapter at all.

EDIT: To the person who told me to remove my avatar, please read my signature. I put it there for a reason. That avatar pretty much explains exactly what I believe about the Bible - as soon as I post, everyone will know where I am coming from (and can ignore me if they like ). I know Ruckman is not God.

And he was only divorced twice. Married three times. Scofield was as well. Us dispensationalists have a bit of a record for that...

 

[JDale]

It doesn't say a word in Hebrews 11 about Moses being justified.

It says he did many things by faith. It's a chapter on faith. But the word justified, or saved or redeemed does not appear in that chapter at all.

EDIT: To the person who told me to remove my avatar, please read my signature. I put it there for a reason. That avatar pretty much explains exactly what I believe about the Bible - as soon as I post, everyone will know where I am coming from (and can ignore me if they like ). I know Ruckman is not God.

And he was only divorced twice. Married three times. Scofield was as well. Us dispensationalists have a bit of a record for that...

Where does the Bible (Old Testament OR New) every say that faith + Keeping the Law (or anything else!) could EVER justify anyone? If this is true, Jesus died in vain. The Law was given to demonstrate that NNE could keep it -- not so that some could keep it and be justified.

This is a common error propagated by hyper-Dispensationalists. It is not Biblical, nor is it the position of "normative" Dispensationalism.

JDale

Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. (Habakkuk 2:4)

 

[Lukasaurus]

It doesn't..

I'll explain it again

Old Testament saints

In order to get to heaven, they had to take a detour on the way. Abraham's Bosom.

The only way they could get to Abraham's Bosom was by faith, and keeping the law of God. If they broke the law, there were sacrifices that could be made which were part of the law, to forgive their sins. But they were not cleansed from sin.

So a Jew who had faith in God, and by faith, kept the law, which they said they would do in Exodus 19 and Exodus 24, and offered up the sacrifices when he sinned, would die and go to Abraham's Bosom. He was not justified (Yes, Abraham was Justified by believing as Romans 4 says, but Abraham was not under the law - he was under promise, or grace).

Then, Jesus Christ came to earth. God born as a man. Died on the cross for our sins, but not ours only, but for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). He now sheds His blood which washes away our sins and theirs (the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin).

He descends into the lower parts of the earth, where Abraham's Bosom was (paradise), and sets captivity captive (sets the captives free - the OT saints were still captive because they were not sinless) - the sin debt has been paid, they are free to go to heaven. NOW are they justified.

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


EDIT: Brother, you quoted habbakuk. I don't see how that verse supports your position.

The just shall live by faith. Not saved by faith. And if it said the just are saved by faith, it wouldn't make any sense, because justified people are already saved.

The just shall live by His faith. Yes, they shall. By the faith of God, they kept the law of God. If they broke it, they offered sacrifices. Habbakuk is also prophetic, and not about teaching Israel how to be redeemed, but rather, promises a future redemption.

 

[Marcia]

The NT uses Abraham as an example of being justified by faith alone. Being justified is being saved. Both of these passages are clear that Abraham was saved by faith alone.

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness Rom. 4:2-5

Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS Gal. 3:6

All the dispensationalists that I know believe that the OT saints were saved by faith alone. I could not disagree with you more that the OT believers had to have faith plus do the sacrifices. Faith plus something else is not being saved.

 

[JDale]

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.(Romans 3:20)

Luka:

I don't have a problem with your description of Abraham's Bosom, Paradise, Jesus "descending" to take "captivity captive," and so forth. However, to say that those saints who were there entered on the basis of faith + works of the Law (or anything else!) simply denies the clear teaching of Scripture.

Even Peter made this clear at the Jerusalem Council: Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (Acts 15:10)

No Jew -- No ONE -- has ever "kept the Law." The sacrifices were merely acts that evidenced faith -- they in themselves had no effacacious merit -- as you rightly pointed out. They could have offered such things as mere ritual, religious pretense. FAITH was what was necessary.

Again:

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering.The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. (Psalm 51:16,17)

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams (I Samuel 15:22).

The saints in Abraham's Bosom were there, awaiting Christ, because they looked forward in FAITH to God's salvation in Him.

It is an error that Hyper-Dispensationalists too often propagate, that under the Old Covenant Jews were saved by "faith + keeping the Law." If that is the case, can Jews today be "saved" in the same way? Might they "keep the Law" and find redemption apart from Christ? Hyper-Dispensationalists sometimes fall into this same error, saying "Gentiles have their way to God [Jesus], Jews have their way to God [keeping the Law]? Is this not indeed at least a theoretical possibility in your view Luka?

JDale

It doesn't..

I'll explain it again

Old Testament saints

In order to get to heaven, they had to take a detour on the way. Abraham's Bosom.

The only way they could get to Abraham's Bosom was by faith, and keeping the law of God. If they broke the law, there were sacrifices that could be made which were part of the law, to forgive their sins. But they were not cleansed from sin.

So a Jew who had faith in God, and by faith, kept the law, which they said they would do in Exodus 19 and Exodus 24, and offered up the sacrifices when he sinned, would die and go to Abraham's Bosom. He was not justified (Yes, Abraham was Justified by believing as Romans 4 says, but Abraham was not under the law - he was under promise, or grace).

Then, Jesus Christ came to earth. God born as a man. Died on the cross for our sins, but not ours only, but for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). He now sheds His blood which washes away our sins and theirs (the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin).

He descends into the lower parts of the earth, where Abraham's Bosom was (paradise), and sets captivity captive (sets the captives free - the OT saints were still captive because they were not sinless) - the sin debt has been paid, they are free to go to heaven. NOW are they justified.

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


EDIT: Brother, you quoted habbakuk. I don't see how that verse supports your position.

The just shall live by faith. Not saved by faith. And if it said the just are saved by faith, it wouldn't make any sense, because justified people are already saved.

The just shall live by His faith. Yes, they shall. By the faith of God, they kept the law of God. If they broke it, they offered sacrifices. Habbakuk is also prophetic, and not about teaching Israel how to be redeemed, but rather, promises a future redemption.

 

[JDale]

The NT uses Abraham as an example of being justified by faith alone. Being justified is being saved. Both of these passages are clear that Abraham was saved by faith alone.






All the dispensationalists that I know believe that the OT saints were saved by faith alone. I could not disagree with you more that the OT believers had to have faith plus do the sacrifices. Faith plus something else is not being saved.

Amen Marcia. Good post.

JDale

 

[Lukasaurus]

But it doesn't mean anything..... I already said that Abraham was justified by faith alone. He was under the promises of God. When God makes the covenant and goes between the sacrifices which Abraham aligned, God does it himself. It's all of grace. Abraham wasn't under the law.

My question was - where is Moses justified by faith?

 

[TC]

I see it along these lines.

1 Corinthians 10:1-5 (KJV) says
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.



So we see that Moses and the Israelites followed Christ. However, many did not believe and were overthrown. Moses is listed as one that has faith in Hebrews along with other OT saints, and Jesus said that if they (the pharisees and religious leaders) truly believed Moses then they would believe in him (Christ) because Moses wrote of him (Christ).


Hebrews 11:24-26 (KJV)

24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.



It is apparent to me that Moses had faith in Christ and was justified by faith along with other OT saints.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

TC,

Amen. All O.T. saints included Moses have faith in Christ, were saved same as N.T. saints have faith in Christ. All O.T. saints were saved by their faith only, not by keeping all laws. Bible always emphasis on faith all the times. "Laws" of O.T. is like as mirror showing us that we are sinners. BOth O.T. and N.T. saints put faith on Jesus Christ, both are on the same boat or on same tree-salvation. No other else. Only one salvation throuhgout O.T. and N.T. times by through the faith only.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Lukasaurus]

3 Questions

1) How could an OT saint trust in Jesus Christ?

2) What did an OT saint know about heaven, and God's spiritual kingdom?

3) After you answer the first two, why would an OT saint trust in someone he doesn't know, to go to a place he knows nothing about?

 

[Marcia]

3 Questions

1) How could an OT saint trust in Jesus Christ?

2) What did an OT saint know about heaven, and God's spiritual kingdom?

3) After you answer the first two, why would an OT saint trust in someone he doesn't know, to go to a place he knows nothing about?

A quick aside re Moses' faith as having saved him - read all of Heb. 11 and note verse 39 ("all these" includes Moses):

And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised

The OT saints trusted in the true God. They knew of the coming Messiah and believed God's promise of Him. I am not sure what they knew of heaven, but they knew about a life after death. David, for example, when mourning his dead son he had with Bathsheba, said

But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. 2 Sam 12.23

In Heb. 11, referring to OT saints, it says they desired a "heavenly" country:

15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Here from Heb. 11 is a reference to Moses seemingly knowing about Christ:

By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
25choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

There is this with Jesus with the 2 disciples on the way to Emmaus:

Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures, Lk 24.27

"The scriptures" here refers to the OT.

Also note these:

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; Jn 5.39

"Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?" Jn 7.42

To answer your 3rd question - they trusted God, even though they did not understand everything or have the revelation we have. That is the whole point - they trusted God. This is what we are to do. We have more revelation than they did but yet often our faith is weaker (compared to the OT saints in Heb. 11). And we are still to trust Him when we have no idea what is going on. It's all faith!

Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Heb. 11.6

 

[Humblesmith]

Well, it's nice to see the thread still going after two and half years............but sad to see it hijacked.

Going back to the OP, I think I posted in this thread three times primary quotes showing that Dispensationalists believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, for both Jew and Gentile. Dispensationalists believe in one salvation for Israel and Gentiles alike.

I asked for anyone to provide primary quotes from any published Dispensationalist that has taught otherwise, and I have seen none. Not even one, after two and half years. The closest that anyone got was that it was "a logical conclusion" of the dispensational system. If I am generous, I can only conclude that this is a misunderstanding based on Dispensationalists' holding to an "election" for national Israel that still includes the land and a literal fullfullment of OT covenants. Again, Dispensationalists teach one salvation for all, and a destiny for national Israel that includes faith in Jesus and posession of the land.

I showed this with numerous quotes from Lewis Sperry Chafer. Since this thread was started, another dispensational Systematic Theology was published by Norman Geisler that repeats the same thing: One salvation for both Jew and Gentile, and a physical inheritance of the land by national Israel.

No one has shown me any published Dispensational quotes that show otherwise. Therefore, I conclude that those who continue to say that Dispensationalists hold to two salvations are not trying to find the truth about what dispensationalists' actually teach, for they obviously haven't been reading dispensationalists' teachings.

I'm not disputing anyone's right to try to contradict dispensationalism from the scriptures. Go ahead and try, it's a free country. But please, for the sake of intellectual honesty, stop labeling dispensationalism with the acusation that it teaches two salvations, when no one can show me a quote from a dispensationalist that shows anything but one salvation for all.

 

[Marcia]

Humblesmith, welcome back! :wavey: I was gone from the BB myself for about a year and a half and just came back recently.

Sometimes it's hard being on the dispensational side of the fence here, enough to make me want to leave the BB sometimes. Of course, that then makes me want to stay. :laugh:

Are you sticking around?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Humblesmith: // I asked for anyone to provide primary quotes from any published Dispensationalist that has taught otherwise, and I have seen none. Not even one, after two and half years. The closest that anyone got was that it was "a logical conclusion" of the dispensational system. //

Strange how people who are against something can logic otherwise. Salvation is the same in all 'dispensations'. "Jesus Saves" - true in all dispensations. And here is how I see Salvation:

For the saved person:

Past - Justification Salvation - all my sin was cleared out and GONE
Past - Jesus does it, we participate in what Jesus does

Present - Sanctification Salvation - my daily sins are cleared out and GONE
Present - Jesus does it, we participate in what Jesus does

Future - Glorification Salvation - Jesus gives me a brand new body,my sins are all GONE and stay GONE
Future - Jesus does it, we participate in what Jesus does

 

[Humblesmith]

Humblesmith, welcome back! :wavey: I was gone from the BB myself for about a year and a half and just came back recently.

Sometimes it's hard being on the dispensational side of the fence here, enough to make me want to leave the BB sometimes. Of course, that then makes me want to stay. :laugh:

Are you sticking around?

Work has had me swamped, and I'm still taking classes at SES. With all that, I don't have much time for fun on the BB. I'll be around some, though.........unless I blow away with hurricane Ike tomorrow.

 

[skypair]

During Old Testament period, all saints were looking forward for the new covenant in their faith. They all already died before Christ came to Calvary. But, NOW they are share in the new covenant by through Christ's blood. Christ's blood reconciled all O.T. saints and N.T. saints at once. Both O.T. saints and N.T. saints are share on the same salvation or in the same boat - Jesus Christ, no other else.

Therefore, all O.T. and N.T. saints are God's Bride- one family.

Uh-uh-uh! Not so fast DPt! The OT saints went to heaven when Christ arose -- that's true. That meant that they were JUSTIFIED by His sacrifice. But the church is SANCTIFIED by the new covenant HS! The OT saints WERE NOT ...... yet. Don't get ahead of yourself.

The OT saints must be resurrected from death (as we have been) unto "newness of life," the MK. THEN and only THEN will they "join the church" so to speak! :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

There is the only one same plan of salvation throughout from O.T. to N.T. is by the faith only, plus nothing.

True! See my thread on "decisional JUSTIFICATION." That does NOT mean, however, that the OT saints are "church."

skypair

 

[Grasshopper]

Bloody future of Israel


http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/bloody_future_of_israel.asp

 

[skypair]

Bloody future of Israel


http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/bloody_future_of_israel.asp

The "Potter" is getting ready to put the "clay" into the "fire." But before He does so, He is going to "mold" them by hand when Gog comes sweeping down on the midtrib like a whirlwind. It is then that Joel tells us that their Pentecost will occur and many will be saved likely including many of those in Rev 7:9.

skypair

 

[Ed Edwards]

Bloody future of Israel


http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/bloody_future_of_israel.asp

That really debunks an interesting theory. Nobody here have I heard espousing that theory, but if one does come, we can zap them right off the board :godisgood:

Ed's brief 'Dispensational teaching':
---------------------------------------------
Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 family of editions (bold by Ed):

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is here. I do know the Greek word being translated here as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get 'economy'.

I do know (IN SUMMARY OF THE BIBLE off the top of my head) that this is what the conomy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!

Frequently the Bible discusses what is to be is discussed in either present tense (is done) or past tense (done already done).

So a study of Greek tenses is generally frustrating. Us human type people can only do one day at a time. God can do everyday at a time - I think God may have invented all the days at the same time?