Holt ministry celebrates its love of God - and beer

[Crabtownboy]

Beer

I would rather sit down with an honest pastor who drinks a beer than with a self-righteous one who drinks beers privately and damns them publically.

[Nope, I don't drink alcoholic drinks ... no merit in that as I do not like the taste of alcohol or liver. :laugh:]

I expect more out of myself than I expect from my pastor.

 

[Palatka51]

What is this assumption based upon?

The fact that the Pharisees accused Jesus of being a "wine-bibbler" convinces me that what Jesus and the disciples drank was, in fact, alcoholic. I don't think anyone could have gotten drunk on grape juice.

Plus the fact that Jesus would not have made a product that would have lead many to drunkenness. Test us He will but tempt us never.

 

[Palatka51]

I would rather sit down with an honest pastor who drinks a beer than with a self-righteous one who drinks beers privately and damns them publically.

[Nope, I don't drink alcoholic drinks ... no merit in that as I do not like the taste of alcohol or liver. :laugh:]

I expect more out of myself than I expect from my pastor.

I agree, and your post is admirable. :thumbs:

 

[KenH]

God created the ingredients for alcholic beverages.

God also created the marijuana plant and the poppy plant.

God created a product - food - that leads many to obesity.

God created an organ - tongue - that leads many to lie and speak hateful things.

God is not the issue on this. It is man's overuse/wrongful use of what He created.

 

[Havensdad]

Although I do not encourage drinking among Christians, the wording in John Chap 2 makes it clear that the wine, was indeed, alcoholic. We make ourselves look like fools, when we make a relationship with Christ be about whether or not to drink beer. To show what I mean with the verse meaning, lets look at the Governors response to the wine. I will highlight a couple of important Greek words:

Joh 2:10 And he said to him, Every man at the beginning sets forth good wine, and when men have drunk well, then that which is worse. You have kept the good wine until now.


Lets look at these words:

Good wine:kalos
Thayer Definition:
1) beautiful, handsome, excellent, eminent, choice, surpassing, precious, useful, suitable, commendable, admirable


So what did they consider "Good" wine? According to Jesus, the Old, fermented wine was the more to be desired:

Luk 5:39 And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, 'The old is good.'

Drunk well So what, according to the Governor of the Feast, is the result of drinking "good" wine? Why, it is the meaning of this word, used in connection with Good wine:

methuō
meth-oo'-o
From another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk

So, the Governor of the feast just said that the wine Jesus provided was the "good" kind that is capable of making you drunk. Jesus, in a separate passage, ALSO called the old, fermented wine the "good" wine.

Jesus undoubtedly provided alcoholic wine at the wedding. This does not mean he encouraged intoxication, anymore than him providing good food would be encouraging gluttony. Sin is not dictated by a thing, but by our use and reaction to that thing.

 

[Palatka51]

God created the ingredients for alcholic beverages.

God also created the marijuana plant and the poppy plant.

God created a product - food - that leads many to obesity.

God created an organ - tongue - that leads many to lie and speak hateful things.

God is not the issue on this. It is man's overuse/wrongful use of what He created.

God created the grape and men figured out how to make alcohol from it. Which God allowed, for from alcohol we get medicinal usage. The first time man drank it, it produced sin.

With that note I have stumbled unto something. The fermentation process is the breakdown of sugars interacting with yeast from dead matter. So from the process of death we have a trigger for life, alcohol. It's proper use will sustain life and will make clean (disinfect) a wound that has infection.

The same might be said about God's creation of cannabis, and poppy. In the case of poppy, medicinal use is wide spread. As for cannabis, the judgment is still out. I for one believe that there a medicinal use for chemo patients.

In the case of food, it is man's slothfulness that causes the obesity. And if for some reason he/she cannot be mobile then food intake must be cut back.

The tongue you've got correct. God created it, fallen man has corrupted it.

And point #4 gets a hardy, AMEN!

 

[EdSutton]

Although I do not encourage drinking among Christians, the wording in second John makes it clear that the wine, was indeed, alcoholic. We make ourselves look like fools, when we make a relationship with Christ be about whether or not to drink beer. To show what I mean with the verse meaning, lets look at the Governors response to the wine. I will highlight a couple of important Greek words:

Joh 2:10 And he said to him, Every man at the beginning sets forth good wine, and when men have drunk well, then that which is worse. You have kept the good wine until now.


Lets look at these words:

Good wine:kalos
Thayer Definition:
1) beautiful, handsome, excellent, eminent, choice, surpassing, precious, useful, suitable, commendable, admirable


So what did they consider "Good" wine? According to Jesus, the Old, fermented wine was the more to be desired:

Luk 5:39 And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, 'The old is good.'

Drunk well So what, according to the Governor of the Feast, is the result of drinking "good" wine? Why, it is the meaning of this word, used in connection with Good wine:

methuō
meth-oo'-o
From another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk

So, the Governor of the feast just said that the wine Jesus provided was the "good" kind that is capable of making you drunk. Jesus, in a separate passage, ALSO called the old, fermented wine the "good" wine.

Jesus undoubtedly provided alcoholic wine at the wedding. This does not mean he encouraged intoxication, anymore than him providing good food would be encouraging gluttony. Sin is not dictated by a thing, but by our use and reaction to that thing.

I believe you meant John, Chapter 2 as oposed to second John, above. Second John does not directly touch on this subject in any way.

Ed

 

[Palatka51]

With that note I have stumbled unto something. The fermentation process is the breakdown of sugars interacting with yeast from dead matter. So from the process of death we have a trigger for life, alcohol. It's proper use will sustain life and will make clean (disinfect) a wound that has infection.

Isn't that a picture of Christ? His death produced life. Christ who was pure and undefiled, sinless, died and before His body saw corruption, God brought Him up alive. Now His blood is for our cleansing and His life for the forgiveness of sin.

And in the process of having Christ as our Savior in the blessing of His death He has instilled a joyful spirit, the Spirit of the God Head.

 

[Havensdad]

I believe you meant John, Chapter 2 as oposed to second John, above. Second John does not directly touch on this subject in any way.

Ed

Obviously from the fact that I posted te verse from John Chap 2, it was a typo. My point is that Jesus clearly made alcoholic wine at the wedding feast.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Obviously from the fact that I posted te verse from John Chap 2, it was a typo. My point is that Jesus clearly made alcoholic wine at the wedding feast.

Your vision of that wine is distorted. It could not have been alcoholic. Had it been alcoholic, He would have been acting contrary to His own nature and purpose for coming to this earth.

He came to seek and to save that which was lost, not push them further down the road to hell.

 

[Palatka51]

Obviously from the fact that I posted te verse from John Chap 2, it was a typo. My point is that Jesus clearly made alcoholic wine at the wedding feast.

No, that is an assumption. The fact that at a party such as this the drinkers would have been drunk as it is clear that they had drank all the previous wine. In a drunken state all things bad become good. The ugly bar maid becomes Venus de Milo. The nasty drink becomes tasty. The participants of this party would have been drunk out of their gourds. Do you honestly think that the wine Jesus made added to their drunkenness?
Therefore the wine at this wedding was indeed nonalcoholic from the beginning till the end.

 

[dragonfly]

Your vision of that wine is distorted. It could not have been alcoholic. Had it been alcoholic, He would have been acting contrary to His own nature and purpose for coming to this earth.

He came to seek and to save that which was lost, not push them further down the road to hell.

I know this might be difficult for you to understand, but your take on what would have been "acting contrary to His own nature..." just could be wrong. I know this might shock you, but you are not infallible; neither is your interpretation of Scripture.

So many fundamentalist Christians, during their lifetime in church, are only exposed to this interpretation and are surrounded by only those who agree. I is easy thereby to conclude that their's is the only possible explanation concerning alcohol. They forget that there are millions of Christians around the world who disagree with their position.

 

[Havensdad]

No, that is an assumption. The fact that at a party such as this the drinkers would have been drunk as it is clear that they had drank all the previous wine. In a drunken state all things bad become good. The ugly bar maid becomes Venus de Milo. The nasty drink becomes tasty. The participants of this party would have been drunk out of their gourds. Do you honestly think that the wine Jesus made added to their drunkenness?
Therefore the wine at this wedding was indeed nonalcoholic from the beginning till the end.

That is not what the text says. You cannot just make up a doctrine because you don't like something. The governor of the feast referred to it as alcoholic wine. Jesus said the old wine(rather than the "fresh" wine) was the Good wine.

Alcohol is not evil. Scripture speaks favorably of wine more than 50 times. It NEVER forbids consumption of wine.

You might as well say "Jesus doesn't like dough nuts. It is an evil man made substance that causes obesity and gluttony. He would never contribute to that."

You simply have no scripture to back up your position. Scripture forbids over drinking. It also forbids overeating. That does not make alcohol, nor food, evil.

In addition, alcoholic wine in small doses is extremely healthy for you.

But regardless, if you simply take the evidence laid down in this text, it is very definitive that the wine is alcoholic.

(Jesus would never make all those loaves and fishes. He would be well aware their were gluttons in the crowd, and that the excessive amount of food he made would contribute to their gluttony!) LOL

 

[Palatka51]

I know this might be difficult for you to understand, but your take on what would have been "acting contrary to His own nature..." just could be wrong. I know this might shock you, but you are not infallible; neither is your interpretation of Scripture.

So many fundamentalist Christians, during their lifetime in church, are only exposed to this interpretation and are surrounded by only those who agree. I is easy thereby to conclude that their's is the only possible explanation concerning alcohol. They forget that there are millions of Christians around the world who disagree with their position.

Even if the whole world says that drinking alcohol is ok I will not drink it. As it is a sin. One million voices for and one voice against. If I am wrong on this judgment then I have done no harm. Out of those million voices I would say all of them at one time in their life they have been drunk. Some of those have even killed innocent lives on highways and in homes. That is what you risk with one drink my friend.
I have chosen a life of sobriety. In order to maintain that quality of life I will face all of life's struggles with my Lord Jesus and have joy. For me To get a beer or wine for relaxation is to say "Lord you are not able to calm my soul and I'd rather trust this drink for joy instead of the joy your Spirit can bring".

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I know this might be difficult for you to understand, but your take on what would have been "acting contrary to His own nature..." just could be wrong. I know this might shock you, but you are not infallible; neither is your interpretation of Scripture.

So many fundamentalist Christians, during their lifetime in church, are only exposed to this interpretation and are surrounded by only those who agree. I is easy thereby to conclude that their's is the only possible explanation concerning alcohol. They forget that there are millions of Christians around the world who disagree with their position.

We don't forget that millions disagree with our position... we also don't forget that those same millions who disagree with our position are also deceived into believing Christ would not have added to man's drunkenness had He created an alcoholic wine.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Arrogance

I am continually amazed at the arrogance of many Christians who are absolutely sure they are absolutely correct on every question, every issue. I often wonder how long will they argue with Christ when they get to heaven and he says, "Sorry, but you were wrong on a number of questions.":tonofbricks:


Hey, I don't even know all the questions, so how can I know all the answers?

 

[Palatka51]

In addition, alcoholic wine in small doses is extremely healthy for you.

All my posts in this thread clearly state that I agree with this position. BTW you do know that you get the same heart, and health benefits from red concord grapes and the concentrated juice? Which I drink a glass full every night before I go to bed.

But regardless, if you simply take the evidence laid down in this text, it is very definitive that the wine is alcoholic.

No, brother you do not have evidence of alcohol. What you do have is a room full of people that have drank to their fill of wine and none are drunk. I want a definitive answer to this question.
Do you think that Jesus would have given more wine with alcohol to a party that has had its fill?
Even a good bartender knows when a drunk has had enough. You are placing Jesus behind a bar and serving drinks. Just think about what you are saying and I think you will agree that I am on the right side of this issue.

(Jesus would never make all those loaves and fishes. He would be well aware their were gluttons in the crowd, and that the excessive amount of food he made would contribute to their gluttony!)

If you'll recall, they picked up several baskets full and the multitude ate till they were full. Biblical gluttony is not the same as eating until one is satisfied. However that is for another thread.

 

[Palatka51]

I am continually amazed at the arrogance of many Christians who are absolutely sure they are absolutely correct on every question, every issue. I often wonder how long will they argue with Christ when they get to heaven and he says, "Sorry, but you were wrong on a number of questions.":tonofbricks:


Hey, I don't even know all the questions, so how can I know all the answers?

You are correct in that we do not have all of the answers. However I can be sure of my own personal stance.

How can I be sure of my salvation? After all I was not there to see that Christ was crucified and see Him in the tomb, then see Him rise on the third day. When Asked how can I be sure by all that do not know Him. All that I can say is I know. Just as I have peace with all my posts on this thread, I simply know. Knowing is not arrogance, it is a humble feeling to let others know that there is danger ahead for any that are walking toward a cliff and thus sparring them from harm. When one does not listen to that warning and they fall to their doom it is a very gripping sadness that comes to the heart of him that warned. Kind of like that ton of bricks hitting me in the head.

 

[dragonfly]

I've stated my position and I will not argue about it.

I enjoy a good beer now and then, if fact I am enjoying a good Budweiser right now.

If you are so sure that drinking alcohol is wrong, don't drink it. But, don't judge me because I disagree with you about it.

 

[Crabtownboy]

You are correct in that we do not have all of the answers. However I can be sure of my own personal stance.

How can I be sure of my salvation? After all I was not there to see that Christ was crucified and see Him in the tomb, then see Him rise on the third day. When Asked how can I be sure by all that do not know Him. All that I can say is I know. Just as I have peace with all my posts on this thread, I simply know. Knowing is not arrogance, it is a humble feeling to let others know that there is danger ahead for any that are walking toward a cliff and thus sparring them from harm. When one does not listen to that warning and they fall to their doom it is a very gripping sadness that comes to the heart of him that warned.

I am not real sure why you answered me in the way you did. I had no one person in mind when I put up my post on arrogance. But it did come to my mind as I read through a number of entries on this thread. It is not restricted to this thread.

When I was 18 I knew everything. When I was 19 I was in a Physical Science class and suddenly I realized there was something I didn't know. It has been down hill since and now I know that in the scheme of things I know nothing. Got a few glimmers throwing rays up over the horizon. Problem is when I finally reach a mountain top in my searches what do I fine, whole ranges of mountains ahead. I have learned to enjoy ambugity and do not find it frightening at all. Well, enough of this for now. Blessings.:type: