Holt ministry celebrates its love of God - and beer

[webdog]

Drinking alcoholic beverages is a sin for everyone--God is not a respector of persons. The Word of God is not our objective standard----it is our final authority and nowhere does it state that one can drink in moderation....moderation is a joke. How does a person know where to draw the line....one drink can make one drunk...better err on the safe side and not drink at all than take the risk of becoming a drunkard. There is no such thing as moderation of drinking alcoholic beverages. My late husband found that out the hard way...now he's dead.

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

And conversely, nowhere does Scripture say one CANNOT drink in moderation. Cherry picking a Scripture in Provergs dealing with drunkeness and "looking" says nothing of drinking in moderation. Next!

 

[webdog]

Funny, I have never read in the papers of anyone being killed by a driver under the influence of coffee.

12 fluid ounces of alcohol numbs the taste buds and dulls the senses. The same amount of caffeine does not have this effect.

I have heard of people dying from heart attacks due to the influence of coffee.

According to your argument, adultery is fine since it doesn't lead to the deaths of any bystanders.

 

[webdog]

Don't know from what science book you are getting your information, but fermentation needs MAN'S input. Vinous fermentation does not occur on the vine...if left on the vine, the grapes will rot and turn to vinegar, NOT alcohol! Let some grapes rot and you will find out. If the fruit of the vine turned to alcohol, man would not need wineries or wine making machines. God did not create alcohol, MAN made it!

A chemical process needs MAN? :laugh:

You may want to get some newer science books...

 

[Palatka51]

So now you use something you deem sinful to cook with? That's like saying you buy Playboy to use as litter compost, or marijuana plants to decorate your atrium.

Webdog,
You are a fellow that is falling off a cliff. You are fighting so hard to grasp a rope that will break your fall that you equate wine drinking to morning coffee. Your arguments are so very lame and they break as soon as you have grasped them.
I know a man who was a social drinker for most of his life and to many that new him they never thought of him as a drunk. Yet one night after an office party he was on a highway going home he crossed the center line on a two lane road and wiped out a whole family in an instant. This man survived. You need to hear his testimony, it sounds just like you. He talked about how he would stand toe to toe with Christians that told him that drinking is a sin. He would say that Jesus drank and Jesus did not condemn drinking alcohol. Through that horrible wreak he realized that Jesus could never have led him to drink even socially. He had been sipping so long that he had came to a level of alcohol tolerence such that he couldn't tell that he was under it's influence. He could walk straight, speech was clear and not slurred and it never dawned on him that he was too drunk to drive. The years of social drinking had fooled him and now this old Christian man lives every day thinking about the family he had killed.
He now believes that the sipping is the boil that will fester until it spews forth death. His own words my friend and you'd do well to grasp that rope because that is the rope that will save you.

 

[Joe]

Just cut and paste the term "Apples and Oranges" for every example given which shows that something else is more destructive or equally as destructive. It's much easier that way. It works great for any drug thread, gluttony, etc..

According to a winery I called last time around, there is a natural fermentation process which occurs outside, but it is rare. I would expect this to be true because they wouldn't have used grape juice for medicinal purposes for stomach problems, as Paul recommended. It would need to be the pure medicine (fermented). God wouldn't place conflicting scripture about alcohol in the bible, there is only one truth. I am pretty liberal about using it for medicinal uses. God made strong drink for us for a reason, yet it certainly wasn't for recreational uses.
If you think you have a stomach infection, by all means, down some pure vodka. Better than spending time to make a Dr appt and be prescribed drugs you don't know exactly what is in them. Cooking with a small amount of wine may add flavor, and it won't drug you (of course).

We have two varieties of grapes growing outside our house. It's been a year, and both smell of vinegar. I'll continue to keep them for years to come, but I doubt they will turn alcoholic.

Otherwise, man made yeast must be added to the wine to make it alcoholic. This is what the winery owner told me.

 

[Joe]

Here are examples of biblical characters drinking fermented wine-

Noah - It brought shame (Genesis 9:21).
Lot - His daughters committed incest (Genesis 19:30-36).
Nabal - God killed him (1Samuel 25:36-37).
Elah - Was murdered by Zimri (1Kings 16:9-10).
Belshazzar - The Assyrians take his kingdom (Daniel 5)
The Corinthians - During the Lord's Super God kills some (1Corinthians 11).

So we can expect drinking too much of fermented wine can bring shame if you are an unclothed parent and your son walks in, it could cause you to commit incest, God may kill you or someone else may kill you.

 

[dragonfly]

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.
24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: [1] and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.

Deut. 14:22-26 KJV (emphasis mine)

 

[EdSutton]

"Hail! Hail! The gang's all here...!"

(Well, most of 'em, anyway, but we are only on page 7 - Still plenty of time left for the stragglers.) :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Joe]

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.
24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: [1] and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.

Deut. 14:22-26 KJV (emphasis mine)

Alright. It says that God is approving of strong drink (alcohol) "if your soul lusteth after it." If I have stomach bacteria, I am going to lust after it too...It probably kills the bacteria on contact.

Notice it says that thou shalt eat before the Lord,
not thu shall drink strong drink before the Lord.

 

[Joe]

I have heard of people dying from heart attacks due to the influence of coffee.

According to your argument, adultery is fine since it doesn't lead to the deaths of any bystanders.

Here it is http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/03/060308084523.htm

They say you need 2-3 cups per day and it is a non-fatal heart attack which occurs.

If you sip a Starbucks med- large coffee, it probably equals 2 -3 cups of coffee itself. A small is called a Tall.
I am thinking it could be as low as a cup of coffee everyday, and many of the heart attacks are fatal but who knows...it gives me a headache if I go longer than 2-3 days so I used to drink it every other day, sometimes two days in a row. Probably an addiction so I quit it about a week ago. Who knows if I will go back....depends upon my level of concentration.
Btw, CUTE picture of both. Your baby is adorable!!!!! Gotta go to church now...

 

[shodan]

Jesus turned water into wine.

The modern day Pharisee is always attempting to turn wine into grape juice!!

 

[Palatka51]

Jesus turned water into wine.

The modern day Pharisee is always attempting to turn wine into grape juice!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine
The word "wine" derives from the Proto-Germanic *winam, an early borrowing from the Latin vinum, "wine" or "(grape) vine", itself derived from the Proto-Indo-European stem *win-o- (cf. Ancient Greek οῖνος - oînos, Aeolic Greek fοίνος - foinos)[8][9]. Similar words for wine or grapes are found in the Semitic languages (cf. Arabic ﻭﻳﻦ wayn) and in Georgian (ğvino), and the term is considered an ancient wanderwort.[10]
The Biblical use of the word does not signify that it is an alcoholic drink. The use of "Strong Drink" is always identified as alcoholic and to be avoided.

 

[Amy.G]

Yes,
Sometimes in my business someone gives a gift of wine. I graciously state that I am not a drinker but I do know a recipe that it should be great in. I have as yet to buy any in public and likely never will.

I buy "cooking" wine sold in the grocery store. It makes all meats more tender and flavorful. It's also cheap. If someone was to see me buy it, I doubt they would think I was going to drink it. (Yuk)

 

[dragonfly]

Alright. It says that God is approving of strong drink (alcohol) "if your soul lusteth after it." If I have stomach bacteria, I am going to lust after it too...It probably kills the bacteria on contact.

Notice it says that thou shalt eat before the Lord,
not thu shall drink strong drink before the Lord.

Yea, that's what God said alright.

You must be a trial lawyer to twist Scripture like this!

 

[dragonfly]

Jesus turned water into wine.

The modern day Pharisee is always attempting to turn wine into grape juice!!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[webdog]

Webdog,
You are a fellow that is falling off a cliff. You are fighting so hard to grasp a rope that will break your fall that you equate wine drinking to morning coffee. Your arguments are so very lame and they break as soon as you have grasped them.
I know a man who was a social drinker for most of his life and to many that new him they never thought of him as a drunk. Yet one night after an office party he was on a highway going home he crossed the center line on a two lane road and wiped out a whole family in an instant. This man survived. You need to hear his testimony, it sounds just like you. He talked about how he would stand toe to toe with Christians that told him that drinking is a sin. He would say that Jesus drank and Jesus did not condemn drinking alcohol. Through that horrible wreak he realized that Jesus could never have led him to drink even socially. He had been sipping so long that he had came to a level of alcohol tolerence such that he couldn't tell that he was under it's influence. He could walk straight, speech was clear and not slurred and it never dawned on him that he was too drunk to drive. The years of social drinking had fooled him and now this old Christian man lives every day thinking about the family he had killed.
He now believes that the sipping is the boil that will fester until it spews forth death. His own words my friend and you'd do well to grasp that rope because that is the rope that will save you.

...and through all of this emotional gook...nothing of substance refuting anything I said.

Maybe you have the wrong rope...

 

[Palatka51]

...and through all of this emotional gook...nothing of substance refuting anything I said.

Maybe you have the wrong rope...

Webdog,
If your avatar is any indication, you do have a beautiful family. You are indeed blessed. Use Biblical wisdom as you raise them. Abstain from alcoholic beverages. Glorify Christ.

 

[webdog]

Webdog,
If your avatar is any indication, you do have a beautiful family. You are indeed blessed. Use Biblical wisdom as you raise them. Abstain from alcoholic beverages. Glorify Christ.

Thank you for the compliment, but I can only raise my children by what Scripture ACTUALLY states. I was raised under the vice that any alcohol in any form was "devil's juice"...that we even had to run to turn off a Budweiser commercial so we didn't "look thou upon..." that evil juice. Unfortunately, I have been freed from legalism through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit's guidance. I must raise them to understand what Scripture actually teaches, that drunkeness and over indulgance (in anything, not just alcohol) is what Scripture condemns.

 

[Sopranette]

"Hail! Hail! The gang's all here...!"

(Well, most of 'em, anyway, but we are only on page 7 - Still plenty of time left for the stragglers.) :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

I guess I'd be one of those!

Wine is a man made drink. To make it into a beverage that people consume for alcohol's effects involves adding sugar and yeast to grape juice, and sealing it for a period of time. Anybody who has grown grapes will tell you if you leave grapes on the vine to rot, all you get is a smelly mess. I dare anyone to make something drinkable out of that. You can make a strong drink simply by freezing and skimming the ice off the top, but it is usually done by distillation.
A winebiber is someone who drinks continuously and excessively. One drink does not a winebiber make.
Wine in the Bible can be either alcoholic or non alcoholic. Non alcoholic wine is what we would call juice today.
There are many things in the world today, that, in and of itself, are harmless, even a blessing, such as money, but used to excess it becomes a curse.

love,

Sopranette

 

[Palatka51]

Thank you for the compliment, but I can only raise my children by what Scripture ACTUALLY states. I was raised under the vice that any alcohol in any form was "devil's juice"...that we even had to run to turn off a Budweiser commercial so we didn't "look thou upon..." that evil juice. Unfortunately, I have been freed from legalism through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit's guidance. I must raise them to understand what Scripture actually teaches, that drunkeness and over indulgance (in anything, not just alcohol) is what Scripture condemns.

I understand your feeling of being shackled. It is not my intent to shackle anyone in the physical nor spiritual. Sounds like you will do very well.