Holy Father according to who?

[utilyan]

I cannot make those who do not what to hear to hear. There are types of parents. And there is only One God the Father. Jesus did not forbid calling a parent father. But did forbid making other men intermediaries to God by calling them father. ". . . call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. . . ." -- Matthew 23:9 [John 14:6; 1 Timothy 2:5]

So Paul is in the wrong here right?


1 corinthians 4

14I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.

 

[Adonia]

I am of the point of view that the Catholic mass is a key part of its false gospel.

You told me earlier that the gospel is and I quote: "Christ's death, burial, and resurrection". That is what the Holy Mass is all about and if you can not see that truth then there is nothing I can say to make you change your mind.

The missinterpretation of Jesus' metaphor as a literal. Hence transubstanciation teaching.

No misinterpretation. Transubstantiation is how the Church describes the process, while our Eastern Orthodox brothers simply call it a "mystery". This is the interpretation that has been in existence from the beginning, all of Christianity believed this for centuries with even Martin Luther continuing to believe it. It is only with the coming of people like Huldrych Zwingli and the founder of your sect John Smyth did the misinterpreting begin.

 

[Adonia]

I cannot make those who do not what to hear to hear.

Neither can I.

And there is only One God the Father.

Amen!

But did forbid making other men intermediaries to God

You had better not pray for anyone - ever! Such a thing would then make YOU an intermediary to God.

 

[37818]

You told me earlier that the gospel is and I quote: "Christ's death, burial, and resurrection". That is what the Holy Mass is all about and if you can not see that truth then there is nothing I can say to make you change your mind.

Show me the resurrection in that Mass. I might learn something.

And what I know of the Mass comes accross that that Mass is a false gospel, Remember the Judaizers, which Paul wrote, ". . . another Gospel, . . . Which is not another Gospel, . . . pervert the Gospel of Christ. . . ." -- Galatians 1:6-7.

I believe in the rememberance which Christ instituted. Later the Apostle Paul taught, we should do it "till he come." Which refers to Christ's future second appearing.

I believe the "presence" of Christ in the rememberance being in the believers (1 Corinthians 10:17; Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12) not in or being the bread and cup.

 

[37818]

You had better not pray for anyone - ever! Such a thing would then make YOU an intermediary to God.

In other words, any one who prays to God should be called Father?

 

[37818]

No misinterpretation. Transubstantiation is how the Church describes the process, while our Eastern Orthodox brothers simply call it a "mystery". . . .

It is a false Christ and a false gospel. [You know where the disagreement is. In the authority of the written word of God.]

 

[Walter]

The New Testament church and the churches have existed since the 1st century.

Baptistic churches, I presume? Evidence please.

 

[utilyan]

He's just going to ignore Paul here and pretend he never said this:


1 corinthians 4

14I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.

 

[37818]

Baptistic churches, I presume? Evidence please.

The evidence is the handed down New Testament. It is the basis of the genuine Christian faith. All claimants to Christianity cite the New Testament without exception.

 

[37818]

14I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.

Christ did not forbid parents from being called father. Did I not make that clear? What men where Christ forbiding being called father, when He instructed, ". . . call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."? Give a specific example of men Christ forbid being called father.

 

[Walter]

The evidence is the handed down New Testament. It is the basis of the genuine Christian faith. All claimants to Christianity cite the New Testament without exception.

As do ALL protestant denominations. SDA, JW

The evidence is the handed down New Testament. It is the basis of the genuine Christian faith. All claimants to Christianity cite the New Testament without exception.

I refer you back to your Baptist Only Forum on Baptist Perpetuity. No proof as admitted on thread.

 

[37818]

As do ALL protestant denominations. SDA, JW

The Catholic church.

I refer you back to your Baptist Only Forum on Baptist Perpetuity. No proof as admitted on thread.

It is not my fault. Baptist Perpentuity is the New Testament being the sole Apostolic authority. If it is not NT then it is not really Baptist.

 

[Walter]

The Catholic church.


It is not my fault. Baptist Perpentuity is the New Testament being the sole Apostolic authority. If it is not NT then it is not really Baptist.

If you had historical proof that Baptistic churches existed down from the time the New Testament was written you would be quick to present it. You have NOTHING

 

[Walter]

Extensive graduate study and independent investigation of church history has, however, convinced [the author] that the view he once held so dear has not been, and cannot be, verified. On the contrary, surviving primary documents render the successionist view untenable. . . . Although free church groups in ancient and medieval times sometimes promoted doctrines and practices agreeable to modern Baptists, when judged by standards now acknowledged as baptistic, not one of them merits recognition as a Baptist church. Baptists arose in the 17th century in Holland and England. They are Protestants, heirs of the reformers. (Baptist Successionism: A Crucial Question in Baptist History [1994],

 

[37818]

If you had historical proof that Baptistic churches existed down from the time the New Testament was written you would be quick to present it. You have NOTHING

The quote is from the letters of Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius, Liber Epistolarum 150, titled “Alberto Bavariae Duci” in about 1563 A.D.

Nam & alterius Principis edictum non ita pridem legi, qui vicem Anabaptistarum dolens, quos ante mille ducentos annes haeretisos, capitalique supplicio dignos esse pronunciatos legimus, vult, ut audiantur omnino, nec indicta causa pro condemnatis habeantur.

Translation of Quote: For not so long ago I read the edict of the other prince who lamented the fate of the Anabaptists who, so we read, were pronounced heretics twelve hundred years ago and deserving of capital punishment. He wanted them to be heard and not taken as condemned without a hearing. (by Carolinne White, Ph.D, Oxford University, Head of Oxford Latin)

1563 - 1200 = 363 refers to Baptists in the 4th century.

My position is the 1st century churches are none other than New Testament churches, Baptist to me.

 

[utilyan]

Christ did not forbid parents from being called father. Did I not make that clear? What men where Christ forbiding being called father, when He instructed, ". . . call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."? Give a specific example of men Christ forbid being called father.

Paul is not his parent. He is only father through the gospel.

Timothy's actual father was greek.


Timothy is a GENTILE. Paul had to get him circumcised just to evangelize to Jews.

If he was Paul's from infancy he would have been circumcized 8th day infant.

 

[37818]

Paul is not his parent. He is only father through the gospel.

Timothy's actual father was greek.


Timothy is a GENTILE. Paul had to get him circumcised just to evangelize to Jews.

If he was Paul's from infancy he would have been circumcized 8th day infant.

Oh, then Paul lied when he said he was Timothy's father [parent] through the gospel.

 

[utilyan]

Oh, then Paul lied when he said he was Timothy's father [parent] through the gospel.

1 corinthians 4

14I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.


Paul also says he is teacher, Jesus clearly stated call no man teacher, you have only one teacher in heaven.

1 Timothy 2

7For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.


There is also appointment of teachers

1 corinthians 12

28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

Matthew 23

8“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9“Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

Paul calls titus his son
Titus 1
4To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.


Philemon 1

10I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus,whose father I became in my imprisonment.

Paul is not their parent.


2 corinthians 12

14Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

Paul continuously refers himself as parent to the congregation.

Peter does the same:

1 Peter 5
13She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark.




John refers to congregation as MY CHILDREN.
1 John 2
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;




John here refering to people as father's based on spiritual knowledge, You can be an adult not have any bilogical children and you can be a teen who has better understanding of christianity than a old man.
1 John 2

12I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.


John, Peter and Paul call themselves parents, are called fathers and call their congregation children. Spiritual fatherhood is very real.

The issue is you are taking a western understanding to Aramaic/Hebrew figure's of speech.

Call nothing a bacon cheeseburger unless its from WENDYS!

Its like giving God praise. Call nothing GOOD but GOD!
Jesus says don't even CALL HIM GOOD. Only God. Lets see you keep to that rule.


Non one argued about these things untill 1500s when people began to take advantage over the ignorant.

 

[Walter]

The quote is from the letters of Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius, Liber Epistolarum 150, titled “Alberto Bavariae Duci” in about 1563 A.D.

Nam & alterius Principis edictum non ita pridem legi, qui vicem Anabaptistarum dolens, quos ante mille ducentos annes haeretisos, capitalique supplicio dignos esse pronunciatos legimus, vult, ut audiantur omnino, nec indicta causa pro condemnatis habeantur.

Translation of Quote: For not so long ago I read the edict of the other prince who lamented the fate of the Anabaptists who, so we read, were pronounced heretics twelve hundred years ago and deserving of capital punishment. He wanted them to be heard and not taken as condemned without a hearing. (by Carolinne White, Ph.D, Oxford University, Head of Oxford Latin)

1563 - 1200 = 363 refers to Baptists in the 4th century.

My position is the 1st century churches are none other than New Testament churches, Baptist to me.

Anabaptist at that time did not believe in 'faith alone'.

 

[Adonia]

The quote is from the letters of Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius, Liber Epistolarum 150, titled “Alberto Bavariae Duci” in about 1563 A.D.

Nam & alterius Principis edictum non ita pridem legi, qui vicem Anabaptistarum dolens, quos ante mille ducentos annes haeretisos, capitalique supplicio dignos esse pronunciatos legimus, vult, ut audiantur omnino, nec indicta causa pro condemnatis habeantur.

Translation of Quote: For not so long ago I read the edict of the other prince who lamented the fate of the Anabaptists who, so we read, were pronounced heretics twelve hundred years ago and deserving of capital punishment. He wanted them to be heard and not taken as condemned without a hearing. (by Carolinne White, Ph.D, Oxford University, Head of Oxford Latin)

1563 - 1200 = 363 refers to Baptists in the 4th century.

My position is the 1st century churches are none other than New Testament churches, Baptist to me.

The Baptist sect was started in the years 1608-09 by a man named John Smythe in Amsterdam, Holland. Mr. Smythe himself was a former minister in the Church of England. Concerning the Baptist faith tradition, it seems you are only off by some 1600 years, so it's no banana for you!

"Some people try to trace organized Baptist churches back to New Testament times or to John the Baptist. One writer even suggested that Adam was the first Baptist! Certainly we believe that our doctrine and faith root in the New Testament, but we first meet our organized denomination considerably this side of Adam".

Source: The Baptist History and Heritage Society.