Holy Father according to who?

[Adonia]

In other words, any one who prays to God should be called Father?

No, because there are many examples in the Scriptures where mere men are called father by people like St. Paul. You said: "But did forbid making other men intermediaries to God". Thus according to you, the person now praying for another person has become an intermediary to God. See, this is what happens when people like yourself try to interpret the Scriptures - you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Adonia]

It is a false Christ and a false gospel. [You know where the disagreement is. In the authority of the written word of God.]

No, the disagreement exists because of your bad scriptural interpretation from top to bottom.

 

[Adonia]

Show me the resurrection in that Mass. I might learn something.

And what I know of the Mass comes accross that that Mass is a false gospel, Remember the Judaizers, which Paul wrote, ". . . another Gospel, . . . Which is not another Gospel, . . . pervert the Gospel of Christ. . . ." -- Galatians 1:6-7.

I believe in the rememberance which Christ instituted. Later the Apostle Paul taught, we should do it "till he come." Which refers to Christ's future second appearing.

I believe the "presence" of Christ in the rememberance being in the believers (1 Corinthians 10:17; Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12) not in or being the bread and cup.

Such a terrible interpretation. You are simply wrong, wrong, wrong. None of that nonsense ever appeared until the 17th century, brought to the Christian world by mere men preaching with many errors.

 

[37818]

Anabaptist at that time did not believe in 'faith alone'.

So you have a source reference for 4th century Anabaptists?

First century teaching still is:
". . . to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5.
". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8-9.
". . . Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; . . ." -- Titus 3:5.
". . . Jesus . . . said . . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. . . ." -- John 6:47.

 

[37818]

No, the disagreement exists because of your bad scriptural interpretation from top to bottom.

Start with the first point. Give a starting example. Otherwise your accusation is just that, an accusation.

 

[37818]

No, because there are many examples in the Scriptures where mere men are called father by people like St. Paul. You said: "But did forbid making other men intermediaries to God". . .

None of those examples are what Jesus forbid. ". . . call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. . . ." Give a real case example of what Jesus did forbid by this.


But you resort to a starwman argument:

Thus according to you, the person now praying for another person has become an intermediary to God. See, this is what happens when people like yourself try to interpret the Scriptures - you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[utilyan]

Anabaptist at that time did not believe in 'faith alone'.

They are still around

The quote is from the letters of Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius, Liber Epistolarum 150, titled “Alberto Bavariae Duci” in about 1563 A.D.

Nam & alterius Principis edictum non ita pridem legi, qui vicem Anabaptistarum dolens, quos ante mille ducentos annes haeretisos, capitalique supplicio dignos esse pronunciatos legimus, vult, ut audiantur omnino, nec indicta causa pro condemnatis habeantur.

Translation of Quote: For not so long ago I read the edict of the other prince who lamented the fate of the Anabaptists who, so we read, were pronounced heretics twelve hundred years ago and deserving of capital punishment. He wanted them to be heard and not taken as condemned without a hearing. (by Carolinne White, Ph.D, Oxford University, Head of Oxford Latin)

1563 - 1200 = 363 refers to Baptists in the 4th century.

My position is the 1st century churches are none other than New Testament churches, Baptist to me.

Anabaptist are nothing like baptists. Also Anabaptist are still around: Mennonites, Amish, Mennonite Brethren, Hutterites

They are not "Faith Alone".


The baptist founder left to be mennonite, why? The problem we are talking about right now, He was anglican priest and he knew there was no ties from Baptist to Jesus. So he wanted to tie himself via mennonites.



Obvious his error because in the beginning who can baptize him?

Think about it you are the first baptist and you guys only accept YOUR baptism cause everything else is a false religion.

What he do? He BAPTIZED HIMSELF. Before he dies he ADMITS, REGRETS and writes a letter of apology.


Thats why you are looking for a trail to Jesus right now. Cause you know with out it all you have is a fake church trying to pass for the real thing.

 

[utilyan]

But I think you got bigger fish to fry. Suppose you did have direct linage, easily provable. How you going to convince me to serve EVIL? that is PENAL SUBSTITUTION.

Like i've heard even the most kindest of pastors DR. Michael Brown give the most exquisite sugar coating of pure evil possible. There is no way we are going to buy into serving EVIL.

It is the voice of God that thunders from MERCY, KINDNESS and COMPASSION.

Whenever there is debate or argument and I find myself as the one contrary to MERCY or kindness that is a good indication I know I got a problem.

 

[37818]

When I became a Christian in 1962, I did so with the understanding that I would know for sure I would go to Heaven, if I should die. And I do.

As far as I can tell, [most] Roman Catholics do not have any such hope of knowing for sure of going heaven when they die.

It makes no sense to trade certainty for uncertainty.

 

[utilyan]

When I became a Christian in 1962, I did so with the understanding that I would know for sure I would go to Heaven, if I should die. And I do.

As far as I can tell, [most] Roman Catholics do not have any such hope of knowing for sure of going heaven when they die.

It makes no sense to trade certainty for uncertainty.

God can give me a box and inside that has certificate and promise that he would never do anything to hurt me ect, with full assurance and certainty that I am saved.

I would never open it. I don't take leverage from God. If you can tell the difference between Love and God you still got a lot to learn about both.

Do you understand? I feel there is something wrong in the whole plot of seeking assurance and certainty FROM GOD in the first place.

Whereas my attitude ought to be God is your very best friend and cares about you more than you do.


My motivation doesn't come from fear. When I say God is Love, I mean it.

My trust in God allows for me to hear the other side, attend another church, I could "leave" the catholic faith, It ain't nothing, I already witness someone more deeply understanding and patient.

The boogeyman of salvation or not, doesn't apply to me.

I am not going to obsess over salvation.

I obsess over God's Command LOVE GOD, LOVE NEIGHBOR.


Btw I ain't trying to convert you, You perfectly safe where you are. Our stance is God is way more reasonable and loving than anyone else in existence.

I think more alone the lines of Life the CLASSROOM rather than LIFE the COURTROOM.

 

[Adonia]

When I became a Christian in 1962, I did so with the understanding that I would know for sure I would go to Heaven, if I should die. And I do.

As far as I can tell, [most] Roman Catholics do not have any such hope of knowing for sure of going heaven when they die.

It makes no sense to trade certainty for uncertainty.

In the end God calls the shots. He can leave you out if He wants to (most likely He won't) but He could do so. And then He could let the most despicable person in if he wants to.

I can only speak for myself. God's promise of heaven is a really beautiful thing to the believer and I pray that He has mercy on me and let's me spend eternity in heaven after this hell on earth. I am sort of like the Apostle Thomas on this one - I'll really believe it when I have entered the heavenly realm.

 

[37818]

In the end God calls the shots. He can leave you out if He wants to (most likely He won't) but He could do so. And then He could let the most despicable person in if he wants to.

Without question it is what God says. Now either the NT writings are God's word or not. Based on them being God's word, I know (Titus 1:2; 1John 5:9-13; 2 Corinthians 5:8) with absolute certainty. Either one believes God in this or one is making God out to be a liar. Else the NT is not God's word.

I can only speak for myself. God's promise of heaven is a really beautiful thing to the believer and I pray that He has mercy on me and let's me spend eternity in heaven after this hell on earth. I am sort of like the Apostle Thomas on this one - I'll really believe it when I have entered the heavenly realm.

In the Judgement it will be too late (Matthew 7:21-23). Either one is in God's will or one is not (Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12; 2 Corinthians 13:5).

For your information, I understand John 6:53 in terms of the whole context, noting that it is metaphor, John 6:63 and so understood, John 6:68, the meaing being John 6:47, John 6:35, John 6:56, 1 John 5:12-13; John 3:15; John 6:51-53, again John 6:47. Jesus taught this rearding the meaning of the manna from Heaven, not the Pasover here, Hebrews 10:1; Luke 24:44; John 5:39. John 3:16; Romans 1:16.

Note the promise of having eternal life in John 6:54 means John 6:47; John 6:35; 1 John 5:13. If you cannot accept this, you need to accept that is how I know this.

 

[Adonia]

Without question it is what God says. Now either the NT writings are God's word or not. Based on them being God's word, I know (Titus 1:2; 1John 5:9-13; 2 Corinthians 5:8) with absolute certainty. Either one believes God in this or one is making God out to be a liar. Else the NT is not God's word.

No. Without question it is the reality that God can do whatever He wants to anyone one of us at any time, just like He did with the thief on the Cross. Do you really deny that reality?

As for the rest of your post, I maintain what I said earlier. I am of the Apostle Thomas line on believing it only when I actually get there and I maintain that I am at the mercy of God at all times. You have your opinion and I have mine - there is no more to be said about it.

 

[37818]

No. Without question it is the reality that God can do whatever He wants to anyone one of us at any time, just like He did with the thief on the Cross. Do you really deny that reality?

No. But is Hebrews 9:27 not true? ". . , it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: . . ." Did not Jesus promise regarding His sheep say, ". . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. . . ." -- John 10:27-28. His sheep know who they are. And I know I am one of His sheep ( John 7:17; 1 john 5:9-13; Romans 8:9 & Romans 8:16), do you not also know for yourself? ". . . He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: . . ." 1 John 5:11.

As for the rest of your post, I maintain what I said earlier. I am of the Apostle Thomas line on believing it only when I actually get there and I maintain that I am at the mercy of God at all times. You have your opinion and I have mine - there is no more to be said about it.

". . . Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. . . ." -- John 20:29. John 6:47, ". . , Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. . . ."

 

[Adonia]

". . . Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. . . ." -- John 20:29. John 6:47, ". . , Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. . . ."

And? I still have my particular opinion of these things as you have yours, both of which are of equal value. You know, I have faith that I will get a paycheck at the end of the week because I put in the time for it, but only when it's in my account and I see it with my own eyes can I be assured it is there.

So according to you because of what you last posted I am in because I believe and that is great . Such a thing still does not change my personal feeling on the issue. I think it's great that your faith is so strong concerning this, mine however is less so. This has nothing to do with what my faith tradition teaches or how it teaches - it lies within me personally. It is what it is.

 

[37818]

And? I still have my particular opinion of these things as you have yours, both of which are of equal value. You know, I have faith that I will get a paycheck at the end of the week because I put in the time for it, but only when it's in my account and I see it with my own eyes can I be assured it is there.

So according to you because of what you last posted I am in because I believe and that is great . Such a thing still does not change my personal feeling on the issue. I think it's great that your faith is so strong concerning this, mine however is less so. This has nothing to do with what my faith tradition teaches or how it teaches - it lies within me personally. It is what it is.

It is my understanding that it is God who saves and keeps according to His promises. 1 John 5:1.