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Honest debate of Lordship Salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by canadyjd, Nov 29, 2007.

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  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Are LS advocates hard of reading? Please see my comments to Amy, as you say "you can read it yourself". I don't need Lou, nor have I had Lou "tell me" about LS. I've known about this position before I read any of Lou's posts.

    Have you read his 4 part sermon on LS? I'm guessing not. Wouldn't you want to read in DETAIL (and not a prepared statement) of what the man has said?
     
    #141 webdog, Dec 3, 2007
  2. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Do you mind posting a link to that 4 part sermon?
     
    #142 Amy.G, Dec 3, 2007
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I have never identified myself as an "LS advocate".
    I was responding to an earlier post (prior to your discussion with Amy) where you were defending Lou and questioning my ethics and claiming I had "egg" on my face for some reason I can't even begin to understand.
    The so-called "prepared statement" you keep talking about was quite in-depth. Maybe you should take a look at it.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #143 canadyjd, Dec 3, 2007
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Here is some of what J.Mac says in one of his sermons on Lordship Salvation.
    You don't have to agree with him, webdog, but you should agree that the man does not teach "works based" salvation. He clearly rejects that. He does believe good works will follow genuine salvation, but those two position are quite different, don't you agree?

    Peace to you:praying:
     
    #144 canadyjd, Dec 3, 2007
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I will. Give me a while to find it...

    Here it is...

    http://www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0025.htm

    "Another Christian magazine recently carried an article entitled, "This So-Called Lordship Salvation." The article began with a question. Here's the question. "Must a person make Christ Lord or acknowledge Christ as Lord as a condition for salvation?" No less than ten times in the two-page article, the author spoke of making Christ Lord of one's life. And, of course, in the view of the author it wasn't necessary to make Christ Lord to be saved, that's something you did later. You made Christ Lord. You took Him as Savior, and later you made Him Lord. Ten times it said that in a two-page article."

    Please explain how JM is NOT stating making Christ Lord is necessary to receive salvation :confused:
    Also, we do not MAKE Christ anything! He is Lord!
     
    #145 webdog, Dec 3, 2007
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  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I do believe they are different. Read my response to Amy above. JM does not, IMO, or let me say, he says he does not, but considers repentance not a human reaction to God's revealment of our condition.
     
    #146 webdog, Dec 3, 2007
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  7. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    The rich young ruler didn't accept Lordship Salvation either.
     
    #147 JustChristian, Dec 3, 2007
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Good Grief! The quote is from J. Mac, in a sermon concerning Lordship Salvation. He clearly and emphatically says good works follow salvation and they are not a requirement for salvation. How in the world can you say that he doesn't believe it, when that is exactly what he clearly states?

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #148 canadyjd, Dec 3, 2007
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I edited my post. He claims repentance is given to man to use like faith. Bologna.
     
    #149 webdog, Dec 3, 2007
  10. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    John MacArthur, in all my years of reading his works and listening to his teaching, has never promoted a "works" based salvation.

    I might be concluded by some that because of his LS doctrine, the development of sincerity and real submission to the Lord in all areas of life before one believes on Him for salvation is a form of work. But that would not really be an argument of justification via human merit as is the case for a works based salvation.

    That argument, that one must have some magnified humility and acquiescence before "really" being saved is one of qualification and not quantification.

    Though I reject MacArthur's LS theology and of course his Calvinistic positions, I am still able to enjoy many topics and teachings he has and does still handle well.

    I will say though, the gospel being so critical regarding that which saves, warrants the treatment of discussion and debate of MacArthur's teachings that it receives.
     
    #150 Alex Quackenbush, Dec 3, 2007
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    He is quoting the magazine, webdog. The very next sentence J.Mac says the same thing you do.
    Read the whole sermon, webdog. J. Mac clearly says salvation is a gift from God, not a work of man, and that all truely saved people will follow Christ (i.e. recognize Him as Lord). The works are the result of the gift of salvation, not the requirement for salvation.

    Those are two separate issues. You are confused as to what J.Mac believes and teaches.

    Thanks for the links to his sermons, BTW.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #151 canadyjd, Dec 3, 2007
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  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I know he was quoting the magazine article. The bolded was his view that the author of the article was incorrect of his assessment that one does NOT need to make Christ Lord before salvation, but after...

    And, of course, in the view of the author it wasn't necessary to make Christ Lord to be saved, that's something you did later. You made Christ Lord. You took Him as Savior, and later you made Him Lord. Ten times it said that in a two-page article."


    Where does it say this so explicitly in Scripture?
     
    #152 webdog, Dec 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2007
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Apparantly, neither did the disciples since they all fled when Jesus was arrested, and Peter went so far as to deny that he even knew the Lord with a curse.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #153 canadyjd, Dec 3, 2007
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So if one is given repentance and faith by God...did He fail?
     
    #154 webdog, Dec 3, 2007
  15. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Hence, the next sentence where J.Mac rebukes what was the error in that thinking:
    So, you focused on something that J.Mac wasn't necessarily focusing on. He was focused on refuting the idea that you "make Christ Lord" at some point after salvation.

    I'm not trying to get you to agree with him, webdog. I'm not arguing J.Mac's sermon to you. I just want you to see that J.Mac is not teaching a "works based" salvation, which has been the accusation.

    "Would you at least acknowledge that he isn't teaching a works based salvation?

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #155 canadyjd, Dec 3, 2007
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...because he believes it's a pre-requisite BEFORE salvation!

    I agree he comes out and states he doesn't believe in a works based salvation. His chronological order doesn't add up, and inevitably leads to such. If God gives repentance to use, and God gives faith to use, the lack of "Lordship" even after salvation falls on God, too.
     
    #156 webdog, Dec 3, 2007
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    No. This has been the area where I have disagreed with the notion that a "wholehearted commitment" to follow Christ will always and immediately accompany salvation.

    I believe that commitment will come, but it will vary in intensity and timing with each believer as God brings them to maturity.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #157 canadyjd, Dec 3, 2007
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Do you agree that repentance comes from God, and not from God's reaching out to us in revealing our condition? Why, then, does God call us to repent if He is the one giving it?
     
    #158 webdog, Dec 3, 2007
  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe you can show me a single quote from J.Mac where he states Lordship is a pre-requisite BEFORE salvation. The most you can say is that J.Mac believes wholehearted commitment to Christ will always and immediately "ACCOMPANY' salvific faith. It does not come before salvation. It is not a requirement for salvation. But it will always and immediately accompany salvation.
    Then you should take him at his word that is what he believes and teaches.
    You are getting closer to what J.Mac is saying. Assuming you mean "if God gives repentance to us, and God gives faith to us",....then God will not allow there to be a "lack of Lordship" in the faith of the true believer.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #159 canadyjd, Dec 3, 2007
  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I see repentance and faith as our response to God Holy Spirit's work of regeneration, conviction, drawing us to our Lord Jesus. We would not have done so had He not intervened in our lives, indeed we were not even able to do so without His intervention.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #160 canadyjd, Dec 3, 2007
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