Honest debate of Lordship Salvation

[webdog]

The "prepared statement" from J.Mac's website is a written account of what he believes and teaches concerning Lordship salvation. It is there for everyone to see. You don't have to have Lou to tell you, webdog, what J.Mac believes and teaches, you can read it yourself.

When you compare what J. Mac believes and teaches to what Lou claims he believes and teaches, anyone can readily see they are opposites. You don't have to be a "lordship salvation scholar" to see J.Mac has been misrepresented by Lou.

peace to youraying:

Are LS advocates hard of reading? Please see my comments to Amy, as you say "you can read it yourself". I don't need Lou, nor have I had Lou "tell me" about LS. I've known about this position before I read any of Lou's posts.

Have you read his 4 part sermon on LS? I'm guessing not. Wouldn't you want to read in DETAIL (and not a prepared statement) of what the man has said?

 

[Amy.G]

Do you mind posting a link to that 4 part sermon?

 

[canadyjd]

Are LS advocates hard of reading?

I have never identified myself as an "LS advocate".

Please see my comments to Amy, as you say "you can read it yourself". I don't need Lou, nor have I had Lou "tell me" about LS. I've known about this position before I read any of Lou's posts.

I was responding to an earlier post (prior to your discussion with Amy) where you were defending Lou and questioning my ethics and claiming I had "egg" on my face for some reason I can't even begin to understand.

Have you read his 4 part sermon on LS? I'm guessing not. Wouldn't you want to read in DETAIL (and not a prepared statement) of what the man has said?

The so-called "prepared statement" you keep talking about was quite in-depth. Maybe you should take a look at it.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Wouldn't you want to read in DETAIL (and not a prepared statement) of what the man has said?

Here is some of what J.Mac says in one of his sermons on Lordship Salvation.

We must remember above all that salvation is a sovereign work of God. Biblically it is defined by what it produces, not by what one does to get it. Works are not necessary to earn salvation. But true salvation wrought by God will not fail to produce the good works that are its fruit (cf. Matthew 7:17). No aspect of salvation is merited by human works, but it is all the work of God (Titus 3:5-7). Thus salvation cannot be defective in any dimen­sion. "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10). As a part of His saving work, God will produce repentance, faith, sanctifica­tion, yieldedness, obedience, and ultimately glorifica­tion. Since He is not dependent on human effort in producing those elements, an experience that lacks any of them cannot be the saving work of God.

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/2414

You don't have to agree with him, webdog, but you should agree that the man does not teach "works based" salvation. He clearly rejects that. He does believe good works will follow genuine salvation, but those two position are quite different, don't you agree?

Peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

Do you mind posting a link to that 4 part sermon?

I will. Give me a while to find it...

Here it is...

http://www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0025.htm

"Another Christian magazine recently carried an article entitled, "This So-Called Lordship Salvation." The article began with a question. Here's the question. "Must a person make Christ Lord or acknowledge Christ as Lord as a condition for salvation?" No less than ten times in the two-page article, the author spoke of making Christ Lord of one's life. And, of course, in the view of the author it wasn't necessary to make Christ Lord to be saved, that's something you did later. You made Christ Lord. You took Him as Savior, and later you made Him Lord. Ten times it said that in a two-page article."

Please explain how JM is NOT stating making Christ Lord is necessary to receive salvation
Also, we do not MAKE Christ anything! He is Lord!

 

[webdog]

You don't have to agree with him, webdog, but you should agree that the man does not teach "works based" salvation. He clearly rejects that. He does believe good works will follow genuine salvation, but those two position are quite different, don't you agree?

I do believe they are different. Read my response to Amy above. JM does not, IMO, or let me say, he says he does not, but considers repentance not a human reaction to God's revealment of our condition.

 

[JustChristian]

I have never identified myself as an "LS advocate". I was responding to an earlier post (prior to your discussion with Amy) where you were defending Lou and questioning my ethics and claiming I had "egg" on my face for some reason I can't even begin to understand.
The so-called "prepared statement" you keep talking about was quite in-depth. Maybe you should take a look at it.

peace to youraying:

The rich young ruler didn't accept Lordship Salvation either.

 

[canadyjd]

I do believe they are different. Read my response to Amy above. JM does not.

Good Grief! The quote is from J. Mac, in a sermon concerning Lordship Salvation. He clearly and emphatically says good works follow salvation and they are not a requirement for salvation. How in the world can you say that he doesn't believe it, when that is exactly what he clearly states?

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

Good Grief! The quote is from J. Mac, in a sermon concerning Lordship Salvation. He clearly and emphatically says good works follow salvation and they are not a requirement for salvation. How in the world can you say that he doesn't believe it, when that is exactly what he clearly states?

peace to youraying:

I edited my post. He claims repentance is given to man to use like faith. Bologna.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

John MacArthur, in all my years of reading his works and listening to his teaching, has never promoted a "works" based salvation.

I might be concluded by some that because of his LS doctrine, the development of sincerity and real submission to the Lord in all areas of life before one believes on Him for salvation is a form of work. But that would not really be an argument of justification via human merit as is the case for a works based salvation.

That argument, that one must have some magnified humility and acquiescence before "really" being saved is one of qualification and not quantification.

Though I reject MacArthur's LS theology and of course his Calvinistic positions, I am still able to enjoy many topics and teachings he has and does still handle well.

I will say though, the gospel being so critical regarding that which saves, warrants the treatment of discussion and debate of MacArthur's teachings that it receives.

 

[canadyjd]

http://www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0025.htm

"Another Christian magazine recently carried an article entitled, "This So-Called Lordship Salvation." The article began with a question. Here's the question. "Must a person make Christ Lord or acknowledge Christ as Lord as a condition for salvation?" No less than ten times in the two-page article, the author spoke of making Christ Lord of one's life. And, of course, in the view of the author it wasn't necessary to make Christ Lord to be saved, that's something you did later. You made Christ Lord. You took Him as Savior, and later you made Him Lord. Ten times it said that in a two-page article."

Please explain how JM is NOT stating making Christ Lord is necessary to receive salvation
Also, we do not MAKE Christ anything! He is Lord!

He is quoting the magazine, webdog. The very next sentence J.Mac says the same thing you do.

Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say a Christian is to make Christ Lord. If you're a Christian, He is Lord. And it does say, very explicitly in Scripture, that unless you acknowledge that fact that He is Lord, you could never be saved in the first place.

Read the whole sermon, webdog. J. Mac clearly says salvation is a gift from God, not a work of man, and that all truely saved people will follow Christ (i.e. recognize Him as Lord). The works are the result of the gift of salvation, not the requirement for salvation.

Those are two separate issues. You are confused as to what J.Mac believes and teaches.

Thanks for the links to his sermons, BTW.

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

I know he was quoting the magazine article. The bolded was his view that the author of the article was incorrect of his assessment that one does NOT need to make Christ Lord before salvation, but after...

And, of course, in the view of the author it wasn't necessary to make Christ Lord to be saved, that's something you did later. You made Christ Lord. You took Him as Savior, and later you made Him Lord. Ten times it said that in a two-page article."

And it does say, very explicitly in Scripture, that unless you acknowledge that fact that He is Lord, you could never be saved in the first place.

Where does it say this so explicitly in Scripture?

 

[canadyjd]

The rich young ruler didn't accept Lordship Salvation either.

Apparantly, neither did the disciples since they all fled when Jesus was arrested, and Peter went so far as to deny that he even knew the Lord with a curse.

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

Apparantly, neither did the disciples since they all fled when Jesus was arrested, and Peter went so far as to deny that he even knew the Lord with a curse.

peace to youraying:

So if one is given repentance and faith by God...did He fail?

 

[canadyjd]

I know he was quoting the magazine article. The bolded was his view that the author of the article was incorrect of his assessment that one does NOT need to make Christ Lord before salvation, but after...

And, of course, in the view of the author it wasn't necessary to make Christ Lord to be saved, that's something you did later. You made Christ Lord. You took Him as Savior, and later you made Him Lord. Ten times it said that in a two-page article."

Hence, the next sentence where J.Mac rebukes what was the error in that thinking:

Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say a Christian is to make Christ Lord. If you're a Christian, He is Lord.

So, you focused on something that J.Mac wasn't necessarily focusing on. He was focused on refuting the idea that you "make Christ Lord" at some point after salvation.

Where does it say this so explicitly in Scripture?

And it does say, very explicitly in Scripture, that unless you acknowledge that fact that He is Lord, you could never be saved in the first place.

I'm not trying to get you to agree with him, webdog. I'm not arguing J.Mac's sermon to you. I just want you to see that J.Mac is not teaching a "works based" salvation, which has been the accusation.

"Would you at least acknowledge that he isn't teaching a works based salvation?

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

So, you focused on something that J.Mac wasn't necessarily focusing on. He was focused on refuting the idea that you "make Christ Lord" at some point after salvation.

...because he believes it's a pre-requisite BEFORE salvation!

I agree he comes out and states he doesn't believe in a works based salvation. His chronological order doesn't add up, and inevitably leads to such. If God gives repentance to use, and God gives faith to use, the lack of "Lordship" even after salvation falls on God, too.

 

[canadyjd]

So if one is given repentance and faith by God...did He fail?

No. This has been the area where I have disagreed with the notion that a "wholehearted commitment" to follow Christ will always and immediately accompany salvation.

I believe that commitment will come, but it will vary in intensity and timing with each believer as God brings them to maturity.

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

No. This has been the area where I have disagreed with the notion that a "wholehearted commitment" to follow Christ will always and immediately accompany salvation.

I believe that commitment will come, but it will vary in intensity and timing with each believer as God brings them to maturity.

peace to youraying:

Do you agree that repentance comes from God, and not from God's reaching out to us in revealing our condition? Why, then, does God call us to repent if He is the one giving it?

 

[canadyjd]

...because he believes it's a pre-requisite BEFORE salvation!

I do not believe you can show me a single quote from J.Mac where he states Lordship is a pre-requisite BEFORE salvation. The most you can say is that J.Mac believes wholehearted commitment to Christ will always and immediately "ACCOMPANY' salvific faith. It does not come before salvation. It is not a requirement for salvation. But it will always and immediately accompany salvation.

I agree he comes out and states he doesn't believe in a works based salvation.

Then you should take him at his word that is what he believes and teaches.

His chronological order doesn't add up, and inevitably leads to such. If God gives repentance to use, and God gives faith to use, the lack of "Lordship" even after salvation falls on God, too.

You are getting closer to what J.Mac is saying. Assuming you mean "if God gives repentance to us, and God gives faith to us",....then God will not allow there to be a "lack of Lordship" in the faith of the true believer.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Do you agree that repentance comes from God, and not from God's reaching out to us in revealing our condition? Why, then, does God call us to repent if He is the one giving it?

I see repentance and faith as our response to God Holy Spirit's work of regeneration, conviction, drawing us to our Lord Jesus. We would not have done so had He not intervened in our lives, indeed we were not even able to do so without His intervention.

peace to youraying: