How 2 Cor 5:19 teaches limited atonement !

[Brightfame52]

I understand your points to be misinformed if that 's what you are asking?

Post 117 Please explain what my point is so I can know you understand it, even though you dont agree.

 

[Brightfame52]

The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is limited to those who have been objectively reconciled to God by His death. Thats why he tells believers that they had been [past tense] reconciled to God by Christs death, even when they themselves were active enemies Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Same thing is implied 2 Cor 5:18

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Now this objective reconciliation is once and for all by the death of Jesus Christ for all whom He died.

So the present tense reconciliation given in Vs 19 of 2 nd Cor 5 doesnt go beyond those who have been objectively reconciled by His death, which of them it entitles to non imputation of sin, sin not being laid to their charge. John Gill makes a solid comment here:

To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself,.... This expresses and explains the subject matter of the ministration of the Gospel, especially that part of it which concerns our reconciliation with God; and declares the scheme, the author, the subjects, the way, and means, and consequence of it. The phrase, "in Christ", may be either joined with the word "God", as in our version, "God was in Christ reconciling"; that is, he was in Christ drawing the scheme, fixing the method of reconciliation; his thoughts were employed about it, which were thoughts of peace; he called a council of peace, and entered into a covenant of peace with Christ, who was appointed and agreed to, to be the peacemaker. Or with the word "reconciling", thus, God "was reconciling in Christ"; that is, by Christ; and so it denotes, as before, actual reconciliation by Christ. God, in pursuance of his purposes, council, and covenant, sent his Son to make peace; and laid our sins, and the chastisement of our peace upon him; this is the punishment of sin, whereby satisfaction was made for it, and so peace with God: or with the word "world", thus, "God was reconciling the world in Christ"; by whom are meant, not all the individuals of mankind, for these are not all in Christ, nor all reconciled to God, multitudes dying in enmity to him, nor all interested in the blessing of non-imputation of sin; whereas each of these is said of the world: but the elect of God, who are chosen in Christ, whose peace Christ is, whose sins are not imputed to them, and against whom no charge of any avail can be laid; and particularly the people of God among the Gentiles are here designed, who are frequently called "the world" in Scripture; being the world which God loved, for whose sins Christ is the propitiation, and of the reconciling of which mention is particularly made, John 3:16. And this sense well agrees with the context, which signifies, that no man is regarded for his natural descent; it is no matter whether he is a Jew or a Gentile, provided he is but a new creature: for Gospel reconciliation, and the ministry of it, concern one as well as another. Moreover, this reconciliation must be considered, either as intentional, or actual, or as a publication of it in the ministry of the word; and taken either way it cannot be thought to extend to every individual person in the world: if it is to be understood intentionally, that God intended the reconciliation of the world to himself by Christ, and drew the scheme of it in him, his intentions cannot be frustrated; his counsel shall stand, and he will do all his pleasure; a scheme so wisely laid by him in his Son, cannot come to nothing, or only in part be executed; and yet this must be the case, if it was his design to reconcile every individual of mankind to himself, since a large number of them are not reconciled to him: and if the words are to be understood of an actual reconciliation of the world unto God by Christ, which sense agrees with the preceding verse, then it is out of all question, that the word "world" cannot be taken in so large a sense as to take in every man and woman in the world; since it is certain that there are many who are not reconciled to God, who die in their sins, whose peace is not made with him, nor are they reconciled to the way of salvation by Christ: and should it be admitted that the ministry of reconciliation is here designed, which is not an offer of reconciliation to the world, but a proclamation or declaration of peace and reconciliation made by the death of Christ; this is not sent to all men; multitudes were dead before the word of reconciliation was committed to the apostles; and since, there have been great numbers who have never so much as heard of it; and even in the times of the apostles it did not reach to everyone then living: besides, the text does not speak of what God did by the ministry of his apostles, but of what he himself had been doing in his Son, and which was antecedent, and gave rise unto and was the foundation of their ministry. There was a scheme of reconciliation drawn in the counsels of God before the world began, and an actual reconciliation by the death of Christ, which is published in the Gospel, which these words contain the sum and substance of: and this reconciliation, as before, is said to be "unto himself"; to his offended justice, and for the glory of his perfections, and the reconciling of them together in the affair of salvation:

Now there is a Gospel sense in which subjective reconciliation is presently going on until the completion of all generations of objectively reconciled hear [spiritually] the good news of their Salvation/Reconciliation objectively in and through Jesus Christ..


Be warned that some teach a false view that this portion of scripture teaches universalism, everyone is reconciled to God or shall be, but that's not true because some shall die in their sins, the wrath of God is abiding on them, they shall not see life, and God still charges them with their sins Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things [sins]cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 4

 

[Silverhair]

Post 117 Please explain what my point is so I can know you understand it, even though you dont agree.

BF you seem to be missing the concept of posting on here. You have to explain your points not have someone explain them for you.

You have taken a verse out of context in support of you view, it does not do what you require of it. But you have been told many times that your cherry picking of verses leads to the many logical errors you present .

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you seem to be missing the concept of posting on here. You have to explain your points not have someone explain them for you.

You have taken a verse out of context in support of you view, it does not do what you require of it. But you have been told many times that your cherry picking of verses leads to the many logical errors you present .

Duh I have explained my points, but you dont discuss them

 

[Silverhair]

Did you not read post # 118

The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is limited to those who have been objectively reconciled to God by His death. Thats why he tells believers that they had been [past tense] reconciled to God by Christs death, even when they themselves were active enemies Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Same thing is implied 2 Cor 5:18

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Now this objective reconciliation is once and for all by the death of Jesus Christ for all whom He died.

God was reconciled to us through Christ and that includes all that Christ died for which is clearly stated in the bible if you care to trust what the bible says. John 3:17 the world, Hebrews 2:9 for everyone, 1 Timothy 2:6 ransom for all, Romans 5:6 Christ died for the ungodly, Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

No one is saved at the cross BF. If we go by your understand then we have universal salvation. Christ was the offering to the Father for the sin debt of all. 1 John 2:2 the whole world.

So the present tense reconciliation given in Vs 19 of 2 nd Cor 5 doesnt go beyond those who have been objectively reconciled by His death, which of them it entitles to non imputation of sin, sin not being laid to their charge. John Gill makes a solid comment here:

Now there is a Gospel sense in which subjective reconciliation is presently going on until the completion of all generations of objectively reconciled hear [spiritually] the good news of their Salvation/Reconciliation objectively in and through Jesus Christ..

What John Gill says is irrelevant if it does not comport with scripture. The only way that you can make 2 co 5:19 say what you want is if 1] you ignore context and 2] change the meaning of the word "world". The bible is clear that Christ died for all mankind not just some as you would require. 3] If we use your definition of "world " then we end up with universalism.

Be warned that some teach a false view that this portion of scripture teaches universalism, everyone is reconciled to God or shall be, but that's not true because some shall die in their sins, the wrath of God is abiding on them, they shall not see life, and God still charges them with their sins Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things [sins]cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 4

As I pointed out to you BF your view does lead to universalism so that means you need to alter your view of that verse.

 

[Brightfame52]

Did you not read post # 118



God was reconciled to us through Christ and that includes all that Christ died for which is clearly stated in the bible if you care to trust what the bible says. John 3:17 the world, Hebrews 2:9 for everyone, 1 Timothy 2:6 ransom for all, Romans 5:6 Christ died for the ungodly, Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

No one is saved at the cross BF. If we go by your understand then we have universal salvation. Christ was the offering to the Father for the sin debt of all. 1 John 2:2 the whole world.



What John Gill says is irrelevant if it does not comport with scripture. The only way that you can make 2 co 5:19 say what you want is if 1] you ignore context and 2] change the meaning of the word "world". The bible is clear that Christ died for all mankind not just some as you would require. 3] If we use your definition of "world " then we end up with universalism.



As I pointed out to you BF your view does lead to universalism so that means you need to alter your view of that verse.

Its pretty simple, those who comprise the world of 2 Cor 5:19 dont have their sins charged to them, so they cant die in their sins, however there are people who shall die in their sins Jn 8:24 so they cannot belong to the world of the reconciled, hence 2 Cor 5:19 teaches limited atonement.

 

[Brightfame52]

The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is limited to only some because ts a Justified world, all people arent Justified. We know this because there will be a resurrection in the last day of both the Just/Justified and the unjust/unjustified See Acts 24:15

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

They're the same unjust of 1 Cor 6:9

Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

But now Paul is speaking of a world of folk that God doesnt impute their sins unto them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now non imputation of trespasses means forgiveness of them, Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.


8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.


2Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Now those whom God will not impute sin are a forgiven people therefore a Justified people. A forgiven people are judicially legally Justified. it meansto cancel an indebtedness or liability of:

One of the NT words for Justification found in Rom 4:25 is the word dikaiósis which means:

acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution

acquittal is but a synonym for forgiveness,

Hence the world in 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven, acquitted, justified world with no trespasses charged to it ! 4

 

[Silverhair]

The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is limited to only some because ts a Justified world, all people arent Justified. We know this because there will be a resurrection in the last day of both the Just/Justified and the unjust/unjustified See Acts 24:15

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

They're the same unjust of 1 Cor 6:9

Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

But now Paul is speaking of a world of folk that God doesnt impute their sins unto them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now non imputation of trespasses means forgiveness of them, Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.


8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.


2Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Now those whom God will not impute sin are a forgiven people therefore a Justified people. A forgiven people are judicially legally Justified. it meansto cancel an indebtedness or liability of:

One of the NT words for Justification found in Rom 4:25 is the word dikaiósis which means:

acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution

acquittal is but a synonym for forgiveness,

Hence the world in 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven, acquitted, justified world with no trespasses charged to it ! 4

So you ignore all the scripture that tells you for whom He died and insist that that world in 2 Co 5:19 means elect.

Context does not support your view BF. But since you want to ignore what is right in front of you there is no more to say.

 

[Brightfame52]

So you ignore all the scripture that tells you for whom He died and insist that that world in 2 Co 5:19 means elect.

Context does not support your view BF. But since you want to ignore what is right in front of you there is no more to say.

He died for them He reconciled to God and have no sin laid to their account 2 Cor 5 19 so that excludes them who die in their sins, hence Limited atonement

 

[Silverhair]

He died for them He reconciled to God and have no sin laid to their account 2 Cor 5 19 so that excludes them who die in their sins, hence Limited atonement

You really need to start reading things in context BF. You are letting your calvinist theology inform you of what the bible says rather than letting scripture inform you.

You are coming to scripture looking for verses to support your view and as I have seen in your posts you will pull any verse out of context if you think it will help you. That is not how you should study the bible. The bible is not a book of one liners that you pick and choose from. When you do that it is not the bible you believe but yourself.

BF no matter how many times you post your errant views it will not change what Paul wrote:
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
God could change His relationship toward us because our sins have been imputed (reckoned) to Christ, instead of to us. In other words, God placed our sins on Christ, who knew no sin. His death was in our place and for our sins.
If we believe in Jesus, God counts Jesus’ righteousness as our righteousness
2Co 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

BF you want people saved at the cross but that is not biblical
1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

 

[Brightfame52]

You really need to start reading things in context BF. You are letting your calvinist theology inform you of what the bible says rather than letting scripture inform you.

You are coming to scripture looking for verses to support your view and as I have seen in your posts you will pull any verse out of context if you think it will help you. That is not how you should study the bible. The bible is not a book of one liners that you pick and choose from. When you do that it is not the bible you believe but yourself.

BF no matter how many times you post your errant views it will not change what Paul wrote:
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
God could change His relationship toward us because our sins have been imputed (reckoned) to Christ, instead of to us. In other words, God placed our sins on Christ, who knew no sin. His death was in our place and for our sins.
If we believe in Jesus, God counts Jesus’ righteousness as our righteousness
2Co 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

BF you want people saved at the cross but that is not biblical
1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

See Post 127

 

[Silverhair]

See Post 127

Did see the post. Your view is still wrong.

 

[Brightfame52]

Did see the post. Your view is still wrong.

You not paying attention, the world of 2 Cor 5:19 is a gathering of individuals that doesnt have its sins charged to them, the penalty of sin is not there, so the world is limited in this regard to them who are reconciled to God and dont have their sins charged to them. Let me ask you this, are people in hell reconciled to God / Yes or No

 

[Silverhair]

You not paying attention, the world of 2 Cor 5:19 is a gathering of individuals that doesnt have its sins charged to them, the penalty of sin is not there, so the world is limited in this regard to them who are reconciled to God and dont have their sins charged to them. Let me ask you this, are people in hell reconciled to God / Yes or No

BF you keep saying the same thing but that does not alter the truth of scripture. Context does not support your view.

To answer your question I would tell you that you will find your answer when you read the context of 2Co 5:19

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2Co 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.

While God was reconciled to us when Christ went to the cross and covered our sin debt. We are only reconciled to God when we place our trust in the risen Christ.

BF do you trust in the crucified Christ or the risen Christ?

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you keep saying the same thing but that does not alter the truth of scripture. Context does not support your view.

To answer your question I would tell you that you will find your answer when you read the context of 2Co 5:19

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2Co 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.

While God was reconciled to us when Christ went to the cross and covered our sin debt. We are only reconciled to God when we place our trust in the risen Christ.

BF do you trust in the crucified Christ or the risen Christ?

Again the world of 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have any sin charged to it, no condemnation. So how can the condemned be part of that world ? So its limited !

 

[Silverhair]

Again the world of 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have any sin charged to it, no condemnation. So how can the condemned be part of that world ? So its limited !

BF the more you post the more you prove that it is not scripture you believe but yourself.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF the more you post the more you prove that it is not scripture you believe but yourself.

Again the world of 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have any sin charged to it, no condemnation. So how can the condemned be part of that world ? So its limited ! And it behooves any preacher of the word of reconciliation to make that clear, for thats good news.

 

[Silverhair]

Again the world of 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have any sin charged to it, no condemnation. So how can the condemned be part of that world ? So its limited ! And it behooves any preacher of the word of reconciliation to make that clear, for thats good news.

BF if you do not learn to read verses in context you will continue to make the same logical error that you have continued to make in this thread. The context has been pointed out to you and you just ignore the truth contained in it.

Your errant view does not comport with the whole of scripture and therefore it fails.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF if you do not learn to read verses in context you will continue to make the same logical error that you have continued to make in this thread. The context has been pointed out to you and you just ignore the truth contained in it.

Your errant view does not comport with the whole of scripture and therefore it fails.

Again the world of 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have any sin charged to it, no condemnation. So how can the condemned be part of that world ? So its limited ! And it behooves any preacher of the word of reconciliation to make that clear, for thats good news.

 

[Silverhair]

Again the world of 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have any sin charged to it, no condemnation. So how can the condemned be part of that world ? So its limited ! And it behooves any preacher of the word of reconciliation to make that clear, for thats good news.

Read the verse in context BF. If you are not willing to believe the bible then this discussion will have to come to an end.