How 2 Cor 5:19 teaches limited atonement !

[Brightfame52]

@Brightfame52 the calvinist mantra is that the elect were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Now your saying that those same people can sin
"I have told you over and over and over, The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is the elect. It doesnt have any sins charged to it, its not condemned. God doesnt condemn His elect Rom 8:33"
"I never said the elect weren't sinful, but that they weren't condemned for being sinners"

Since, according to clvinism, the "elect" were chosen B4 the world began they were never in fear of being condemned so again I ask why did they need a redeemer. They were going to heaven no matter what and the "non-elect" were going to hell no matter what.

So under calvinism the "elects" sinful actions have zero effect on their future destination. You do realize that your view is not biblical.

Again the elect world of 2 Cor 5:19 isnt charged with sin. Thats a Gospel Truth there friend. I bet you never mentioned that to anyone b4, yet Paul is Preaching it.

 

[Brightfame52]

The World in 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have its sins charged to them, so it cant mean everyone without exception as its falsely claimed by many !

Lets read

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 4

 

[Brightfame52]

The individuals that compose the world of 2 Cor 5:19 will eventually be subjectively reconciled to God, their natural enmity and being enemies in their minds by wicked works as per Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The Spirit of Christ gives these reconciled individuals repentant hearts and minds causing them to submit to God in Christ. If this werent true then 2 Cor 5:19 would be a lie ! And so they come to God through Christ Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[Silverhair]

The individuals that compose the world of 2 Cor 5:19 will eventually be subjectively reconciled to God, their natural enmity and being enemies in their minds by wicked works as per Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The Spirit of Christ gives these reconciled individuals repentant hearts and minds causing them to submit to God in Christ. If this werent true then 2 Cor 5:19 would be a lie ! And so they come to God through Christ Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

I know you do not like the hard truths of the bible as they do not fit into your man-made theology.

While reconciliation is universal salvation is not. Reconciliation touches the whole human race. Salvation is limited to the few who believe, for salvation depends on faith / belief.
A person may stand before God with every sin covered by the blood of the Son, but if he is still in Adam then death rules over him. There is no hope of resurrection.

Are not all men sinners, ungodly, without strength? These are terms that the bible uses to describe all men prior to being in Christ.
Rom_5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom_3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But you will keep saying the same thing over and over hoping that it will make it true. But scripture does not change. "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself"

 

[Brightfame52]

I know you do not like the hard truths of the bible as they do not fit into your man-made theology.

While reconciliation is universal salvation is not. Reconciliation touches the whole human race. Salvation is limited to the few who believe, for salvation depends on faith / belief.
A person may stand before God with every sin covered by the blood of the Son, but if he is still in Adam then death rules over him. There is no hope of resurrection.

Are not all men sinners, ungodly, without strength? These are terms that the bible uses to describe all men prior to being in Christ.
Rom_5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom_3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But you will keep saying the same thing over and over hoping that it will make it true. But scripture does not change. "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself"

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 has been discharged from all sin .No punishment due. Justice demands their release

 

[Silverhair]

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 has been discharged from all sin .No punishment due. Justice demands their release

You do not even agree with calvinist's.

Reconciling the world unto himself - The world here evidently means the human race generally, without distinction of nation, age, or rank. The whole world was alienated from him, and he sought to have it reconciled. This is one incidental proof that God designed that the plan of salvation should be adapted to all people. It may be observed further, that God sought that the world should be reconciled. Man did not seek it. He had no plan for it, he did not desire it. He had no way to effect it. It was the offended party, not the offending, that sought to be reconciled; and this shows the strength of his love. It was love for enemies and alienated beings, and love evinced to them by a most earnest desire to become their friend, and to be at agreement with them. Tyndale renders this very accurately: “For God was in Christ, and made agreement between the world and himself, and imputed not their sins unto them.”
Not imputing their trespasses - Not reckoning their transgressions to them; that is, forgiving them, pardoning them. .... The idea here is, that God did not charge on them with inexorable severity and stern justice their offences, but graciously provided a plan of pardon, and offered to remit their sins on the conditions of the gospel. The plan of reconciliation demonstrated that he was not disposed to impute their sins to them, as he might have done, and to punish them with unmitigated severity for their crimes, but was more disposed to pardon and forgive. The sentiment here is, that God is not disposed or inclined to charge the transgressions of people upon them; he has no pleasure in doing it; and therefore he has provided a plan by which they may be pardoned. At the same time it is true that unless their sins are pardoned, justice will charge or impute their sins to them, and will exact punishment to the uttermost. Barnes

I do not like to do large copy paste but perhaps you will trust what this calvinist has said.

 

[Brightfame52]

You do not even agree with calvinist's.

Reconciling the world unto himself - The world here evidently means the human race generally, without distinction of nation, age, or rank. The whole world was alienated from him, and he sought to have it reconciled. This is one incidental proof that God designed that the plan of salvation should be adapted to all people. It may be observed further, that God sought that the world should be reconciled. Man did not seek it. He had no plan for it, he did not desire it. He had no way to effect it. It was the offended party, not the offending, that sought to be reconciled; and this shows the strength of his love. It was love for enemies and alienated beings, and love evinced to them by a most earnest desire to become their friend, and to be at agreement with them. Tyndale renders this very accurately: “For God was in Christ, and made agreement between the world and himself, and imputed not their sins unto them.”
Not imputing their trespasses - Not reckoning their transgressions to them; that is, forgiving them, pardoning them. .... The idea here is, that God did not charge on them with inexorable severity and stern justice their offences, but graciously provided a plan of pardon, and offered to remit their sins on the conditions of the gospel. The plan of reconciliation demonstrated that he was not disposed to impute their sins to them, as he might have done, and to punish them with unmitigated severity for their crimes, but was more disposed to pardon and forgive. The sentiment here is, that God is not disposed or inclined to charge the transgressions of people upon them; he has no pleasure in doing it; and therefore he has provided a plan by which they may be pardoned. At the same time it is true that unless their sins are pardoned, justice will charge or impute their sins to them, and will exact punishment to the uttermost. Barnes

I do not like to do large copy paste but perhaps you will trust what this calvinist has said.

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 has been discharged from all sin .No punishment due. Justice demands their release. This world is forgiven. Non imputation and forgiveness of sins are one

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[Silverhair]

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 has been discharged from all sin .No punishment due. Justice demands their release. This world is forgiven. Non imputation and forgiveness of sins are one

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Context BF context. You continue to pull verses out of context and thus miss what is being taught.

Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."

Those that believe BF. You keep missing the critical part all the time.

 

[Brightfame52]

Context BF context. You continue to pull verses out of context and thus miss what is being taught.

Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."

Those that believe BF. You keep missing the critical part all the time.

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 has been discharged from all sin .No punishment due. Justice demands their release. This world is forgiven. Non imputation and forgiveness of sins are one

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[Silverhair]

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 has been discharged from all sin .No punishment due. Justice demands their release. This world is forgiven. Non imputation and forgiveness of sins are one

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

If that is all you can say then you have nothing worth listening to. Calvinist's hate context as it shows the error of they view.

In my time on this board I have not seen one good argument from a calvinist/reformed/PB or whatever they want to call themselves supporting their errant view. What I have seen over and over is denial of scripture that shows their error from those same people.

 

[Brightfame52]

If that is all you can say then you have nothing worth listening to. Calvinist's hate context as it shows the error of they view.

In my time on this board I have not seen one good argument from a calvinist/reformed/PB or whatever they want to call themselves supporting their errant view. What I have seen over and over is denial of scripture that shows their error from those same people.

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 has nothing charged to it, not even unbelief, disobedience.

Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now in another place that disobedience is called one mans offence

Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Now that same word offence paraptōma is the word trespasses in 2 Cor 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So the world of 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have its sins charged to it, not even its disobedience/unbelief.

Now we know that doesnt apply to all mankind without exception since some will die in their sins in unbelief Jn 8:24

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins

 

[Silverhair]

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 has nothing charged to it, not even unbelief, disobedience.

Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now in another place that disobedience is called one mans offence

Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Now that same word offence paraptōma is the word trespasses in 2 Cor 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So the world of 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have its sins charged to it, not even its disobedience/unbelief.

Now we know that doesnt apply to all mankind without exception since some will die in their sins in unbelief Jn 8:24

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins

@Brightfame52 I know the words offense & trespasses" come from the same Greek word παράπτωμα. but that still does not help your case.

You seem to think that Christ being our propitiation means that man cannot still be held responsible for their sins. While the death made salvation possible for all mankind, one is only saved if they are in Christ. And for someone to be in Christ requires that they freely trust in Him.

Christ’s death on the cross makes our reconciliation to God possible. Romans 5:10-11

 

[Brightfame52]

@Brightfame52 I know the words offense & trespasses" come from the same Greek word παράπτωμα. but that still does not help your case.

You seem to think that Christ being our propitiation means that man cannot still be held responsible for their sins. While the death made salvation possible for all mankind, one is only saved if they are in Christ. And for someone to be in Christ requires that they freely trust in Him.

Christ’s death on the cross makes our reconciliation to God possible. Romans 5:10-11

Well the world in 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have disobedience imputed to it. That doesnt apply to all mankind. Nobody in the world of 2 Cor 5:19 can die in disobedience, like these,
Eph 5:6

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Christ’s death on the cross makes our reconciliation to God possible.

False, a lie

Christ for them He died for His death reconciled them to God

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now may God have mercy on you for that lie !

 

[Silverhair]

Well the world in 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have disobedience imputed to it. That doesnt apply to all mankind. Nobody in the world of 2 Cor 5:19 can die in disobedience, like these,
Eph 5:6

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.



False, a lie

Christ for them He died for His death reconciled them to God

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now may God have mercy on you for that lie !

BF you make some wild statements care to expand on them. What lie?

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you make some wild statements care to expand on them. What lie?

Already pointed out, cant you read ?

 

[Silverhair]

Already pointed out, cant you read ?

Still not answering the question BF.

You seem to pass over the verses you do not like in scripture. Why is the BF?

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 

[Brightfame52]

Be ye reconciled to God !

Now who is Paul speaking to here ? Is he speaking to unreconciled sinners ? The answer is NO, in fact those he is speaking to have already by

Christ been reconciled to God, thats seen in 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So the ones Paul is speaking to in 2 Cor 5:20

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Are those truthfully already reconciled, so what Paul is doing by the word of reconciliation he is preaching, which is the Gospel, the Power of God unto salvation Rom 1:16 he's bringing the already reconciled to Faith in the declared word of God, for Faith cometh by hearing Rom 10:17

What most neglect to tell us about "be ye reconciled to God" is that its an imperative passive voice, meaning that God through the Gospel is not only commanding reconciliation to Him by the Word, but actually brings about the reconciliation of their minds and hearts to Gods word and the obedience of Faith !

For those who dont know the passive voice is defined:

The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, "The boy was hit by the ball," the boy receives the action.

The subjects of the imperative be ye reconciled to God are recipients of the action of the word of reconciliation in the power of the Spirit having their minds and hearts brought to Faith !

 

[Silverhair]

Be ye reconciled to God !

Now who is Paul speaking to here ? Is he speaking to unreconciled sinners ? The answer is NO, in fact those he is speaking to have already by

Christ been reconciled to God, thats seen in 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So the ones Paul is speaking to in 2 Cor 5:20

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Are those truthfully already reconciled, so what Paul is doing by the word of reconciliation he is preaching, which is the Gospel, the Power of God unto salvation Rom 1:16 he's bringing the already reconciled to Faith in the declared word of God, for Faith cometh by hearing Rom 10:17

What most neglect to tell us about "be ye reconciled to God" is that its an imperative passive voice, meaning that God through the Gospel is not only commanding reconciliation to Him by the Word, but actually brings about the reconciliation of their minds and hearts to Gods word and the obedience of Faith !

For those who dont know the passive voice is defined:

The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, "The boy was hit by the ball," the boy receives the action.

The subjects of the imperative be ye reconciled to God are recipients of the action of the word of reconciliation in the power of the Spirit having their minds and hearts brought to Faith !

@Brightfame52 I do not know why you struggle so much with these verses? Paul made it clear if you will just read what he wrote.

2Co 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

The whole world was alienated from Him, and He {God the Father} sought to have it reconciled. This was accomplished through the cross. We know that through the death of Christ all man-kinds sin debt was covered. {1 John 2:2}
God, in His love, was reaching out to man.

2Co 5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.

God has removed all the obstacles to reconciliation which existed on His part. God has reached out to man through His creation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the gospel message now it remains that man be reconciled to God. (Romans 10:8-10)

God seeks us, but will not force us. God calls us, but we have to answer. God provides reconciliation, but we have to accept the outstretched hand of reconciliation.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Brightfame52 I do not know why you struggle so much with these verses? Paul made it clear if you will just read what he wrote.

2Co 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

The whole world was alienated from Him, and He {God the Father} sought to have it reconciled. This was accomplished through the cross. We know that through the death of Christ all man-kinds sin debt was covered. {1 John 2:2}
God, in His love, was reaching out to man.

2Co 5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.

God has removed all the obstacles to reconciliation which existed on His part. God has reached out to man through His creation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the gospel message now it remains that man be reconciled to God. (Romans 10:8-10)

God seeks us, but will not force us. God calls us, but we have to answer. God provides reconciliation, but we have to accept the outstretched hand of reconciliation.

So did you understand my points ?

 

[Silverhair]

So did you understand my points ?

I understand your points to be misinformed if that 's what you are asking?