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how can calvinism be "the Gospel?" isn't Tjat Jesus And the Cross/Resurrection?
- Thread starter JesusFan
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Greektim
Well-Known Member
Is the Gospel restricted to the simple truths of 1 Cor. 15:1-4ff.???
How about when Paul refers to Gen. 12:3 as the Gospel (cf. Gal. 3:8)?
How about when Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom in Mark 1:14-15 which was about repentance and faith in God's rule not the cross/resurrection?
What do you do with all of this (and there is more)?
The doctrines of calvinism expound the essence of the gospel, not neglecting the cross/resurrection but also not neglecting other important aspects like repentance, faith, and God's rule. It starts w/ man's depravity laying a foundation for the need of salvation. It moves to God's predetermined intercession then Christ's sacrifice then enablement to repent and believe followed by God's sanctification of the saint. If you want to limit the gospel to just "Jesus died and rose again" then you are giving an answer to only one small question and leaving some other big questions unanswered.
Sorry for the rant
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No....The teaching of calvinism is the teaching of scripture....calvinists see it as such.
Once again.....many people say...I believe the bible....I just believe Jesus
I just believe the gospel...
the real question is.....what does the bible teach......the answer is in part calvinism. For example .many say the gospel is;
What writings, what scriptures.....do you see it? What did the scriptures teach, How does God do this, what did man need to be saved from? what is mans condition,
Calvinism presents the whole of scripture, focused on the cross work of the Lord Jesus..... not just 3 historic details.....but the details according to the scriptures
Is the Gospel restricted to the simple truths of 1 Cor. 15:1-4ff.???
How about when Paul refers to Gen. 12:3 as the Gospel (cf. Gal. 3:8)?
How about when Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom in Mark 1:14-15 which was about repentance and faith in God's rule not the cross/resurrection?
What do you do with all of this (and there is more)?
The doctrines of calvinism expound the essence of the gospel, not neglecting the cross/resurrection but also not neglecting other important aspects like repentance, faith, and God's rule. It starts w/ man's depravity laying a foundation for the need of salvation. It moves to God's predetermined intercession then Christ's sacrifice then enablement to repent and believe followed by God's sanctification of the saint. If you want to limit the gospel to just "Jesus died and rose again" then you are giving an answer to only one small question and leaving some other big questions unanswered.
Sorry for the rant
Exactly right, good post......:thumbs::thumbs:
Is the Gospel restricted to the simple truths of 1 Cor. 15:1-4ff.???
How about when Paul refers to Gen. 12:3 as the Gospel (cf. Gal. 3:8)?
How about when Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom in Mark 1:14-15 which was about repentance and faith in God's rule not the cross/resurrection?
What do you do with all of this (and there is more)?
The doctrines of calvinism expound the essence of the gospel, not neglecting the cross/resurrection but also not neglecting other important aspects like repentance, faith, and God's rule. It starts w/ man's depravity laying a foundation for the need of salvation. It moves to God's predetermined intercession then Christ's sacrifice then enablement to repent and believe followed by God's sanctification of the saint. If you want to limit the gospel to just "Jesus died and rose again" then you are giving an answer to only one small question and leaving some other big questions unanswered.
Sorry for the rant
just saying WHAT qualifies Calvinism to be "any better" explaining the Bible than Arminism or any other theological system?
is there something inherit within the asystem that makes it superior, or is it basically the best understanding IF you hold to its basic tenants to atart with?
Why can't we just say that while Calvinism might be 'better way" that there other valid theological models/methods?
Why can't we have a systematic and a biblical understanding of the Bible going by what it says, not our version of what it says?
guess reacting against those who seem to say calvinism is "inspired" by God, and others just "man made?"
Valid in the sense of "orthodox," yes. Valid in the sense of "true," no.
Regardless of one's position on soteriology, if your position is true, the others are at least somewhat false.
If you are a Calvinist, then you would believe Arminian soteriology is wrong/untrue. Arminians would believe the same of Calvinist soteriology.
What sets any theology apart from another is what is esteemed as truth. Where Calvinism and noncalvinism differ, only one can be the truth, not both.
The differences are fundamental, not trivial. The noncalvinists are saying that the Cross merely created a situation in which one can save himself. The Calvinists are saying that the Cross actively saves the elect. One says that the Cross facilitates man's power to save himself. The other says that the Cross is God's power to save His elect. In one system men go about to establish their own righteousness, their righteousness in being wise and good enough to accept Christ. In the other it is God's righteousness unto which one submits.
:thumbs: If I had read the whole thread before I posted, I'd have simply given this a thumbs up.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
True. But it doesn't warrant treating those who disagree without love and respect.
You will never find a non-Calvinist scholar worth his salt say anything remotely similar to this. This is a complete misrepresentation. The straw-men you have created deserve your vehement attacks Aaron. No wonder you treat us with such distain...I would too if I thought non-Calvinists actual believe what you seem to think they do. When you decide you want to debate our actual views let us know.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Iconoclast...
But in truth, sometimes it is the teaching of the scriptures. Other times calivinsm is exceedingly false.
AiC
But in truth, sometimes it is the teaching of the scriptures. Other times calivinsm is exceedingly false.
AiC
When you can show this idea scripturally, then you might have something..but i think you will not do this anytime soon.
Good posts stefan and Aaron
jf
that is what calvinism ,rightly taught and understood is:type:It is what the bible says, it deals with all the issues from scripture.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Aaron...
I am a non-calvinist and I have never believed that. And I cant think of even one person in the non-Cal camp, in all my decades as a christian, that ever believed that. I have never seen or heard any non-cal christian radio or TV broadcast where that was taught. I have never read any non-cal book where that was taught.
Congratulations. You recieve a score or "triple fail"
I am a non-calvinist and I have never believed that. And I cant think of even one person in the non-Cal camp, in all my decades as a christian, that ever believed that. I have never seen or heard any non-cal christian radio or TV broadcast where that was taught. I have never read any non-cal book where that was taught.
Congratulations. You recieve a score or "triple fail"
Alive in Christ
New Member
Iconoclast...
I've already done that, Iconoclast. Dont you remember all those very large pages of scriptures that refute calvinism, back in that other thread?
Some of them came straight from me, and some the others came from websites that I linked to. They were flooded with scriptures that prove certain parts of Calvinism as being completely false. You kind of "tip toed" through them, but made no convincing refutation.
Dont you remember all of that?? Reams and reams of scripture?
And yet now you say...
What an odd thing to say, when reams of scripture has been presented to you.
Your dancing again, Iconoclast. Doing the soft shoe. Fred Astair is proud of you.
I've already done that, Iconoclast. Dont you remember all those very large pages of scriptures that refute calvinism, back in that other thread?
Some of them came straight from me, and some the others came from websites that I linked to. They were flooded with scriptures that prove certain parts of Calvinism as being completely false. You kind of "tip toed" through them, but made no convincing refutation.
Dont you remember all of that?? Reams and reams of scripture?
And yet now you say...
What an odd thing to say, when reams of scripture has been presented to you.
Your dancing again, Iconoclast. Doing the soft shoe. Fred Astair is proud of you.
Answer: some see it saying different things
It is this very reason why Calvinism, when properly understood, does not fully correspond to scriptures in varying parts to varying degrees, and why it has been withstood since it's inception (like all systems made by men). I believe God uses Calvinism or Reformed teaching (like some others) but to presume it stands equal with scripture because some presume it speaks 'to' scripture shows a strong lack of Christian growth, thus immaturity in Christ, at least in my opinion.
Theological stances are the espousing of what man understands regarding God's revelation of His Word and Works. Therefore less than scripture and NEVER to be equated with it or as being - the gospel.
Though the gospel encompasses more than just the death, burial, and resurrection.. this IS the gospel message in it's most condensed form. The unfolding of this rare flower to reveal the beautiful intricacies that form the fullness thereof, come through the expounding of His death, burial, and resurrection story.
And simply to finish.. Greektim summed up the point of what actually IS the gospel and opposed to the theological system that is trying to speak TO the gospel:
Thus please note - Calvinism is NOT the gospel but tries to speak to what it holds as the essence of it.
And the same is said of other orthodox views.
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Not sure what you are speaking about here? I surely would have noticed any substantial post as you say, let me know which post you are speaking of...if I replied ,i will look again at what you offered.
I do remember one that i responded to very clearly. The last article you posted had no scripture to support your view,and i think that your last few posts do not respond to or offer any scripture.
Someone once explained to me that you cannot get a blind man to see a rainbow.....it is there, but he must have eyes to see. I liked that idea.......did you ever see those plaques where there are what looks like random lines on them...but you cannot figure it out?.....then someone tells you to squint your eyes,and you can see it spells Jesus?? It spelled it the whole time, but until your eyes focus on it ...then you see it clearly....after you see it once...you always see it immeadiatley afterwards...everytime.
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Is the Gospel restricted to the simple truths of 1 Cor. 15:1-4ff.???
How about when Paul refers to Gen. 12:3 as the Gospel (cf. Gal. 3:8)?
How about when Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom in Mark 1:14-15 which was about repentance and faith in God's rule not the cross/resurrection?
What do you do with all of this (and there is more)?
The doctrines of calvinism expound the essence of the gospel, not neglecting the cross/resurrection but also not neglecting other important aspects like repentance, faith, and God's rule. It starts w/ man's depravity laying a foundation for the need of salvation. It moves to God's predetermined intercession then Christ's sacrifice then enablement to repent and believe followed by God's sanctification of the saint. If you want to limit the gospel to just "Jesus died and rose again" then you are giving an answer to only one small question and leaving some other big questions unanswered.
Sorry for the rant
No problem!
just asking IF we did NOT have any other written material than the Bible right now...
Would we be able to luive out fruitful lives, having "only" word of God, faith in Christ, Power of the Holy Spirit, and following preceipts in Word of God?
Not saying cannot use the theological models, but sometimes dont we get so into "how/why etc" all happens that we overlook the "simplicity" of Christ?
What strikes me while reading these various postings is that those of us who hold to the Cal model/system should follow MUCH better the admonitions of the Apostle Paul, concerning how we who see ourselves as being "stronger in faith/more spiritual" must treat with respect our "weaker" brothers in the faith, as those deserving to be 'helped along"
I am not saying that Arminist are 'weak" per say, just saying that at times we do come across as being "spiritual proud" and almost looking down towards fellow believers not "in the camp!"
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
savedbymercy
New Member
greek:
By no means, and even when these Truthes are explained and expanded upon you see more clearly the doctrines of election and limited atonement.
What does paul mean by the words " Christ died for our sins according to the scripture" ? He certainly did not mena to identify himself with all men in the world without exception when He said that. The Our Sins would be the Church as per 1 Cor 1:
1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth
Christ died for the sins of the Church of God Acts 20:
28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Eph 5:
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
By no means, and even when these Truthes are explained and expanded upon you see more clearly the doctrines of election and limited atonement.
What does paul mean by the words " Christ died for our sins according to the scripture" ? He certainly did not mena to identify himself with all men in the world without exception when He said that. The Our Sins would be the Church as per 1 Cor 1:
1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth
Christ died for the sins of the Church of God Acts 20:
28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Eph 5:
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;