How can Jesus make this claim ...

[atpollard]

[John 6:44 NIV] "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them ..."

If men have FREE WILL, then how can Jesus make the claim that "No one" can (is able to) come to him?
Doesn't free will mean that some, if not most, that do come to Jesus come because they chose to?

 

[atpollard]

[John 6:44 NIV] "“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

If men have FREE WILL, then how can Jesus make the promise that that he will "raise" ALL that come to him?
Doesn't free will mean that even if God draws all, that not all will choose to believe and some will believe for only a season?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

How would you explain this verse, atpollard?
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Or this one?
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[atpollard]

How would you explain this verse, atpollard?
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Or this one?
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Is that how you want all of the topics that throw out a verse and challenge Calvinism, responded to as well?
With scripture pong.

I just thought it would be nice to give General Baptists a chance to explain a common Particular Baptist scripture passage since "Calvinists" are so often the recipients of similar invitations.

 

[Yeshua1]

How would you explain this verse, atpollard?
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Or this one?
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Ones that will want to come will be His own....

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Is that how you want all of the topics that throw out a verse and challenge Calvinism, responded to as well?

I am not challenging the verses you quote. I believe you misinterpret them, however. My post was in regard to your twice-given statement "If men have FREE WILL..."

In my humble opinion, there is far too much scriptural evidence that supports the free will of man to try and interpret the verses you offer as if there was no free will.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not challenging the verses you quote. I believe you misinterpret them, however. My post was in regard to your twice-given statement "If men have FREE WILL..."

In my humble opinion, there is far too much scriptural evidence that supports the free will of man to try and interpret the verses you offer as if there was no free will.

Dow ehave the same free will Adam had before the fall, or the restricted one afterwards?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

The Ones that will want to come will be His own....

Absolutely. Anyone who wants to come to Him may come to Him. He knew from the foundations of the world who would want to come to Him and chose them as His own. We're on the same page here, my brother.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Dow ehave the same free will Adam had before the fall, or the restricted one afterwards?

Knowing how you define these would be helpful.

 

[Yeshua1]

Knowing how you define these would be helpful.

Before the fall, did not have the sin nature that would cause Him to sin, afterwards, has the sin nature that is in rebellion towards God.

 

[tyndale1946]

How would you explain this verse, atpollard?
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Or this one?
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Who is he asking to come the natural man or the spiritual one?... Brother Glen

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Who is he asking to come the natural man or the spiritual one?

He is calling any man and every man who will come. The passage you give is not a salvation passage. Paul is writing to a church. He is speaking of spiritual discernment. One cannot understand the things of God until and unless he has the Spirit of God. This has nothing to do with free will in regard to salvation.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Before the fall, did not have the sin nature that would cause Him to sin, afterwards, has the sin nature that is in rebellion towards God.

The very fact that Adam sinned proves the free will of man. Adam didn't have to sin; he chose to sin (I Timothy 2:14). Adam's sin did not change the free will of man, it simply made sin inherent.

 

[Yeshua1]

The very fact that Adam sinned proves the free will of man. Adam didn't have to sin; he chose to sin (I Timothy 2:14). Adam's sin did not change the free will of man, it simply made sin inherent.

Now we are found to be dead in our sin natures, so lost that capacity to freely choose to accept/reject the :Lord...

 

[TCassidy]

In my humble opinion, there is far too much scriptural evidence that supports the free will of man to try and interpret the verses you offer as if there was no free will.

Please post 1 verse which says that lost man is NOT in bondage to the law of sin and death. Just 1 will do.

 

[HankD]

[John 6:44 NIV] "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them ..."

If men have FREE WILL, then how can Jesus make the claim that "No one" can (is able to) come to him?
Doesn't free will mean that some, if not most, that do come to Jesus come because they chose to?

I believe the Arminian answer would probably be - the Father knows (in His foreknowledge) those who will believe on the Son and those are they whom He chooses to draw to Jesus.

 

[Jesus Saves!]

Some verses that come to mind.
John 12:32 KJVS
[32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

I always knew about God and Jesus. I believed in them since a child, but there wasn't a personal relationship. I didn't truly know the Lord until the Holy Ghost enlightened this blind man to the fact that I was dead in sin and needed a Saviour. As He enlightened me, he drew me with cords of love. But many times I rejected him. Later on in life while in the midst of the church and Christ, the Holy Ghost spoke to me and begin to draw me to himself. I was singing by the piano with others and it didn't really seem like it was right to the natural man, but as I lingered at the piano procrastinating coming to the Lord, the Spirit seemed to start fading away or getting weaker as the Master passed on by. A fear came over me and I felt this could be my last chance. So, I took a few steps and fell at the altar willing to turn from self and turn to Christ. The burden was lifted and the Holy Spirit moved in.

John 16:7-8 KJVS
[7] Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. [8] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

John 3:14-16 KJVS
[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: [15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. [16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:9 KJVS
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I feel by what I read, comparing scripture, and experience that God uses the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin and reveal to us who we are. I believe we must come to him as he speaks or draws us to himself. How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation. Neglecting salvation seems to be not excepting Christ when he calls. If we neglect to do something, we fell to do what we know needs to be done.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

I consider the so-called freewill of man to be an expression of arrogance patterned after Lucifer's arrogance in heaven:
[Isa 14:14 KJV] 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

I will; my will; freewill = arrogance of sinful man.

[Jhn 15:5 KJV] 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[Eph 4:30 KJV] 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Please post 1 verse which says that lost man is NOT in bondage to the law of sin and death. Just 1 will do.

Non sequitur...

 

[atpollard]

I am not challenging the verses you quote. I believe you misinterpret them, however. My post was in regard to your twice-given statement "If men have FREE WILL..."

In my humble opinion, there is far too much scriptural evidence that supports the free will of man to try and interpret the verses you offer as if there was no free will.

Ok, just for you ...

[John 6:44 NIV] "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

SINCE men have FREE WILL, how can Jesus make the claim that "No one" can (is able to) come to him?
Is it not true that some, if not most, that do come to Jesus come because they choose to?

SINCE men have FREE WILL, how can Jesus make the promise that he will "raise" ALL that come to him?
Is it not true that even if God draws all, not all will choose to believe and some will believe for only a season?