How Did John Piper Become A Calvinist?

[Dave G]

@AustinC :
I know that I had determined to bow out of this thread, but I believe George has raised some important points here that I'd like to address:

You keep saying that, yet in our previous interactions:

1) You had to change chosen us in him before the foundation of the world to chosen us [to be] in him before the foundation of the world
2) You did not believe "the words on the page" when shown verses that said that people were saved by faith, not just through
3) You can't believe that God so loved the world is...the world...you know, "the words on the page".
4) you do not believe that slain from the foundation of the world means the Lamb was actually slain back then, though you do believe that chosen in him before the foundation of the world means we were actually chosen back then...you know..."words on the page"...

1) The words say, "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world".
That is when the choice took place, isn't it?
As for the rest, let's just say that several people on this board have made me realize that a person isn't "in Christ" until they are born again.
I've since amended my view to reflect yet another very important truth...
God's children are placed within the body of Christ at the point of their being "begotten" through the word of truth.
That is when the Spirit to spirit relationship actually begins, as I see the Scriptures stating.

But I am still firmly convinced that no one outside of God's elect, those that the Lord chose "in Him" before the foundation of the world, will ever be "in Christ".
They were always saved and never in any danger of Hell fire.


2) I know of nothing that the Lord says in His word that states that a person is saved by their faith, in the eternal sense.
However, there are several that declare that a person is saved by their faith in the temporal sense.

3) I believe that the word "world" can and is used to mean many things, George.
In some cases, like John 12:19, it doesn't mean every man, woman and child that ever lived.
In 2 Corinthians 5:19, the meaning of the word "world" should be evident when one reads the entire passage from verse 11 to verse 21.
It cannot mean that all men everywhere are reconciled to Him, simply because all men do not and will not have God decide not to impute their trespasses to them.
He only does that for the saved.

4) Correct.
But I do believe that God's decision to send His Son was made at that point.
Why?
Because that is how I understand it, George.

I didn't get my understanding out of a theology book, or from a systematic template of some sort, sir.
I read it, and I then tell you how I understand it.

This is why we keep having such unfruitful discussions...
Because to me, when you read it, you believe the very words on the page ( in many places ) differently than I do.
It's like we're using different dictionaries depending on where we each read from.

 

[Sai]

Please share your thoughts concerning the limitations that the sin nature puts on free will and documentation to support your views.

Who was the first created being to invoke his will?

Well I’m not a scholar just a student and I have to rely upon the scholars. I see Adam created as the angels. The angels were created in a state of unconfirmed holiness but created in a way that they were able to make a choice contrary to their nature. The angels that sinned were confirmed in unrighteousness and became fallen angels. The good angels were confirmed in righteousness and are no longer able to choose to sin.

Adam created holy and righteous had the ability because he had free will, to choose contrary to his nature. Adam was not deceived but willingly disobeyed God by choice. Adam therefore was in a state of total depravity, totally without God. However, God foreknew Adam’s decision and allowed for the creation of man to take place anyways. God saw in you and in me something of value, something worth saving. The more Christians I meet the more this confounds me, I don’t know what he sees (but sometimes from the human level, I see acts of love by believers and I am touched). Scriptures teach that all of humanity was bound for hell and damnation yet God chose to keep the ball rolling because of you and I. Job and Isaiah are great examples of believers who when seeing or God and Father were speechless. So will we be speechless and awestruck upon our reception into the presence of God.

By Adam sin and death entered the cosmos. That death is complete and totally encompasses every human being born. That deadness axiomatically keeps men from seeking God. In Noah’s day no one sought God. After the flood, no one sought the God of Noah except for a minority of his children who made up the believers under the Priest Melchizedek. Through the the times of the Gentiles none sought out the God of Israel. Not the Babylonians not the Persian nor Greek nor the Roman. They all had no desire to seek for the one true God. Prior to that, only 7,000 Israelites sought the God of Elijah.

In the teaching of total deprivation of men I agree with Calvinist theology. No one left to himself can come to God. Simply because he does not want to.

 

[Sai]

How old are you?

He’s 1

 

[Sai]

You avoided my question and are deliberately dragging me into a tangental topic. Why is that?

• To reiterate:
  
• "I do not begin any effort to share the 'good news' with the fact that Salvation was offered to the Jews first and is only now available to non-Jews."
• Is that a significant point in YOUR evangelization efforts?

To clarify, the this discussion started with ... Why do Calvinists not emphasize Act 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles." and teach that God does not judge, but men judge themselves unworthy of eternal life. So you are dragging me rather far from my original answer to this simple question, ignoring my questions, and I have no idea what you hope to accomplish. Preaching to a Jew is not a prerequisite for my sharing the gospel with a non-Jew.

In the book of Acts Paul’s evangelical policy was to seek out the Jews of everywhere he went and preach the gospel to them first. After he completed his orders he then went to the Gentiles. I can see you’ve missed this part of Sunday school?

 

[atpollard]

In the book of Acts Paul’s evangelical policy was to seek out the Jews of everywhere he went and preach the gospel to them first. After he completed his orders he then went to the Gentiles. I can see you’ve missed this part of Sunday school?

You are still avoiding my question and drawing me deeper into your rabbit hole while refusing to explain why.
I did not ask about Paul's evangelical policy, I asked about YOUR evangelical policy.
I did not attend Sunday School. I was raised Atheist.

That irrelevance aside, your non-response feels suspiciously like a personal attack ... so this conversation is terminated.
Talk to the ... [hand].

 

[Van]

And this is how Van deflects from his conflict, which he will not face.

Yet another post directed at the poster and not the position. This is all they have folks, smear, deflect, change the subject. On and on folks, Calvinism has once again been shown to be unbiblical. James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 9:16, 2 Peter 2:10, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. On and on Calvinism claims scripture does not mean what it says. They say no one ever seeks God and ignore Romans 9:16.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another post directed at the poster and not the position. This is all they have folks, smear, deflect, change the subject. On and on folks, Calvinism has once again been shown to be unbiblical. James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 9:16, 2 Peter 2:10, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. On and on Calvinism claims scripture does not mean what it says. They say no one ever seeks God and ignore Romans 9:16.

You really musunderstand the fallen nature and spiritual state now in due to the fall!

 

[AustinC]

Yet another post directed at the poster and not the position. This is all they have folks, smear, deflect, change the subject. On and on folks, Calvinism has once again been shown to be unbiblical. James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 9:16, 2 Peter 2:10, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. On and on Calvinism claims scripture does not mean what it says. They say no one ever seeks God and ignore Romans 9:16.

Van, scripture has been addressed with you for years. Enough with your foolish claims. The reader can determine if your position has any merit. As for me, I find your position to be entirely twisted by your own mind and not an accurate presentation of God's truth. Therefore, I reject your proposal.

 

[Van]

You really musunderstand the fallen nature and spiritual state now in due to the fall!

Yet another disparagement, another taint so, another deflection from the topic. This is all they have folks, because scripture proves Calvinism is bogus.

Here are verses teaching conditional election, limited spiritual ability, and being chosen during our lifetime: James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 9:16, 2 Peter 2:10, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. On and on Calvinism claims scripture does not mean what it says. They say no one ever seeks God and ignore Romans 9:16.

 

[Van]

Van, scripture has been addressed with you for years. Enough with your foolish claims. The reader can determine if your position has any merit. As for me, I find your position to be entirely twisted by your own mind and not an accurate presentation of God's truth. Therefore, I reject your proposal.

On and on folks, claims of rebuttal in the unreferenced past, assertions the view is "foolish," "twisted," "not an accurate presentation of God's truth" and so forth. Then the use of the logical fallacy of personal incredulity.

John Piper's views were not addressed: In this thread, we have an OP that provides a snippet from John Piper as to why he became a Calvinist.

First he cited Philippians 2:12-13 and interpreted this working in us occurs before we are indwelt. No support for that assumption was given in the snippet. But if you just read the chapter you see it is addressed to those already "in Christ."
Therefore the first premise of Piper is obviously bogus.

The second point as his basis for becoming a Calvinist was drawn from several verses from Romans chapter 9. To start with Piper set up a strawman, claiming those who believe God allows us to usually exercise our will autonomously, believe God cannot control our will. Of course He can, the issue is does God allow us to make godly or ungodly choices and the answer is yes.

So, at the end of the snippet, Piper has shown God can cause events to turn out His way, which is not in dispute. No effort was made to show that God does not allow humans to make choices for good or bad.

And finally note, Romans 9:16 clearly teaches the lost are able to seek to be saved, so the idea the lost cannot make godly choices is demonstrated false. It is God alone who either credits our faith as righteousness or not, thus our salvation does not depend upon our willing or striving but upon God alone.. OTOH, the claim the fallen cannot be seeking or cannot be striving to be saved because of Total Spiritual Inability is shown to be false doctrine.

At the end of the day, folks, Calvinism's "TULI" has no actual support in scripture, and that is the reason for all this endless deflection.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This trhead will be closed no sooner than 630 pm edt/330 pm pdt

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Well I’m not a scholar just a student and I have to rely upon the scholars. I see Adam created as the angels. The angels were created in a state of unconfirmed holiness but created in a way that they were able to make a choice contrary to their nature. The angels that sinned were confirmed in unrighteousness and became fallen angels. The good angels were confirmed in righteousness and are no longer able to choose to sin.

Adam created holy and righteous had the ability because he had free will, to choose contrary to his nature. Adam was not deceived but willingly disobeyed God by choice. Adam therefore was in a state of total depravity, totally without God. However, God foreknew Adam’s decision and allowed for the creation of man to take place anyways. God saw in you and in me something of value, something worth saving. The more Christians I meet the more this confounds me, I don’t know what he sees (but sometimes from the human level, I see acts of love by believers and I am touched). Scriptures teach that all of humanity was bound for hell and damnation yet God chose to keep the ball rolling because of you and I. Job and Isaiah are great examples of believers who when seeing or God and Father were speechless. So will we be speechless and awestruck upon our reception into the presence of God.

By Adam sin and death entered the cosmos. That death is complete and totally encompasses every human being born. That deadness axiomatically keeps men from seeking God. In Noah’s day no one sought God. After the flood, no one sought the God of Noah except for a minority of his children who made up the believers under the Priest Melchizedek. Through the the times of the Gentiles none sought out the God of Israel. Not the Babylonians not the Persian nor Greek nor the Roman. They all had no desire to seek for the one true God. Prior to that, only 7,000 Israelites sought the God of Elijah.

In the teaching of total deprivation of men I agree with Calvinist theology. No one left to himself can come to God. Simply because he does not want to.

Please see my post #120 explaining my position concerning the lie of free will.

Since you believe Adam had free will, why did his actions have consequences? Free will should have allowed him to act freely without consequenced.

 

[Sai]

Please see my post #120 explaining my position concerning the lie of free will.

Since you believe Adam had free will, why did his actions have consequences? Free will should have allowed him to act freely without consequenced.

I guess our definitions of free will are different. My thinking of free will means free to choose. I know that there’s no such thing as unlimited free will. Maybe I’m wrong but Adam certainly had the ability to choose to sin even when he was without sin.

 

[Sai]

You are still avoiding my question and drawing me deeper into your rabbit hole while refusing to explain why.
I did not ask about Paul's evangelical policy, I asked about YOUR evangelical policy.
I did not attend Sunday School. I was raised Atheist.

That irrelevance aside, your non-response feels suspiciously like a personal attack ... so this conversation is terminated.
Talk to the ... [hand].

What Paul says is that we are to go out and present the gospel to the Jews of any community first followed by the Gentiles. Biblically there are two types of missions, Jewish missions and gentile missions. Not home and foreign, Jew and gentile. Romans 15:27

 

[JD731]

@AustinC :
I know that I had determined to bow out of this thread, but I believe George has raised some important points here that I'd like to address:


1) The words say, "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world".
That is when the choice took place, isn't it?
As for the rest, let's just say that several people on this board have made me realize that a person isn't "in Christ" until they are born again.
I've since amended my view to reflect yet another very important truth...
God's children are placed within the body of Christ at the point of their being "begotten" through the word of truth.
That is when the Spirit to spirit relationship actually begins, as I see the Scriptures stating.

But I am still firmly convinced that no one outside of God's elect, those that the Lord chose "in Him" before the foundation of the world, will ever be "in Christ".
They were always saved and never in any danger of Hell fire.

It is important to pay attention to the words you are reading in Ephesians, especially chapter 1 through verse 12.These verses tells us what God had through divine counsel determined to do for his people Israel before the foundation of the world. He does not intend for you to think he has chosen individual members of the body he is forming now in time but only that his intention was to choose Jesus Christ in eternity past as head of his body, who would also be his bride, and to choose those "in him" in time through the new birth. One must remember that a Jewish man is writing this letter to gentile believers who got into the body later than the Jewish brethren. The gospel was to the "Jew first" and then to the gentiles. Read the Acts and see if that is not true. The gentiles got in because of the unbelief of Israel. The epistle to the Romans where we are made aware of the failure of the Jewish people to believe in their Messiah and God's response to it by grafting in gentiles so his house may be full. Romans explains these truths to the Jews first, in AD 58, and then to the gentiles in AD 60 when he wrote the 4 prison epistles.

This outline is in Ephesians if anyone would pay attention. In verse 12 Paul notes that those he had been addressing had the firstfruits of the Spirit and used the pronoun "we." Let me just quote it to you.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

He had used that terminology also in Romans 8, referring obviously to the Jews. This is not a mystery, although a mystery is being expounded on in this letter. One can read the history of the Acts and see the Jews were being saved and given the Spirit 10 years before the first gentile was included. Who would have known the gentiles would be included? Nobody if one had to find it prophesied in the OT and nobody until AD 40, when the events of Acts 10 took place and Cornelius, the first gentile was saved and through him the door of faith was opened to the gentiles.Now, the mystery is encapsulated in a single verse in Eph 3, and verse 6. Let's read it together;

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

If the Jews had believed God and been saved as one then the gentiles would not have been included in the body of Christ, they would have been evangelized by the body of Christ after it was formed. The apostle to the gentiles was not saved until Acts 9, after Acts 7 when he and the Jewish rulers refused the Spirit and killed the preacher, Stephan. This was in AD 37.

Finally, in verse 13, Paul begins to tell us about our addition into the plan of God and continues to explain it through his letter.Watch what he says;

13 In whom (Christ) ye also (addition) trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This is such a wonderful letter with all kinds of wonderful promises to us gentiles. It hurts me to see it misused and maligned by Reformed people who do not believe a word it says in any kind of real context and will not be corrected.

 

[Reynolds]

Here's what John Piper has to say:

How Did John Piper Become a Calvinist? // Ask Pas…:

He was predestined to be one

 

[Wesley Briggman]

I guess our definitions of free will are different. My thinking of free will means free to choose. I know that there’s no such thing as unlimited free will. Maybe I’m wrong but Adam certainly had the ability to choose to sin even when he was without sin.

All of mankind has a will, call it self-will, free-will or whatever. Bottom line is, Christians are to submit their will to the will of God as exemplified by Jesus.

[2Co 6:4 ESV] 4 but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities,
[1Pe 2:16 ESV] 16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.

Servants are not free to do their will, but the will of their Master.

 

[AustinC]

On and on folks, claims of rebuttal in the unreferenced past, assertions the view is "foolish," "twisted," "not an accurate presentation of God's truth" and so forth. Then the use of the logical fallacy of personal incredulity.

John Piper's views were not addressed: In this thread, we have an OP that provides a snippet from John Piper as to why he became a Calvinist.

First he cited Philippians 2:12-13 and interpreted this working in us occurs before we are indwelt. No support for that assumption was given in the snippet. But if you just read the chapter you see it is addressed to those already "in Christ."
Therefore the first premise of Piper is obviously bogus.

The second point as his basis for becoming a Calvinist was drawn from several verses from Romans chapter 9. To start with Piper set up a strawman, claiming those who believe God allows us to usually exercise our will autonomously, believe God cannot control our will. Of course He can, the issue is does God allow us to make godly or ungodly choices and the answer is yes.

So, at the end of the snippet, Piper has shown God can cause events to turn out His way, which is not in dispute. No effort was made to show that God does not allow humans to make choices for good or bad.

And finally note, Romans 9:16 clearly teaches the lost are able to seek to be saved, so the idea the lost cannot make godly choices is demonstrated false. It is God alone who either credits our faith as righteousness or not, thus our salvation does not depend upon our willing or striving but upon God alone.. OTOH, the claim the fallen cannot be seeking or cannot be striving to be saved because of Total Spiritual Inability is shown to be false doctrine.

At the end of the day, folks, Calvinism's "TULI" has no actual support in scripture, and that is the reason for all this endless deflection.

On and on the deflection goes. Folks you can read this thread and decide for yourselves why no one supports Van and his theories.

 

[MB]

How Did John Piper Become A Calvinist?
He was forced

 

[atpollard]

It is important to pay attention to the words you are reading in Ephesians, especially chapter 1 through verse 12.These verses tells us what God had through divine counsel determined to do for his people Israel before the foundation of the world. He does not intend for you to think he has chosen individual members of the body he is forming now in time but only that his intention was to choose Jesus Christ in eternity past as head of his body, who would also be his bride, and to choose those "in him" in time through the new birth. One must remember that a Jewish man is writing this letter to gentile believers who got into the body later than the Jewish brethren. The gospel was to the "Jew first" and then to the gentiles.

It is equally important to remember that if Paul wrote vast quantities of scripture of negligible value to non-Jews and sent it to Gentile Churches then he was not really the Apostle to the Gentiles and most of the Bible is worthless and irrelevant to most Christians ... we might as well join a New Age church and just get in touch with our Earth Mother.

On the other hand, if Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles and what he wrote was intended for us and the Gospels were written to take the Good News to all nations, then all of scripture is for us and the Jew/Gentile dichotomy is a red herring meant to confuse and mislead.

All who believe are the Israel of God.