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How Did John Piper Become A Calvinist?
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
This is what happens when you go to seminary . You could probably trace a lot of calvinists beginnings from going to seminary .
Sproul s testimony is similar. Calvinism happens before the person is grounded in the scriptures, then the system has you .
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I've never been to one, Barry.
Perhaps, but I personally know of far more "Arminians" / "Traditionalists / Provisionists" / "Molinists" who have been to seminaries than the other way around.
I also know of many who have never been to seminary, and came to what you call "Calvinism" by strictly reading the Scriptures for themselves.
Are you completely sure that it's the seminaries that are responsible for turning out people who believe in election, predestination, calling and so forth, and not Someone else?
I've been a believer for over 42 years, Barry, and I'm more grounded in the Scriptures now, by His grace and mercy, than I ever was back in the 1980's as a young believer in Jesus Christ.
I understand what you call "Calvinism" as the truth of the Bible, at least in the so-called "5 Points", but I did not always believe that way.
In fact, I don't consider myself to have been well-grounded in the Scriptures until fairly recently...
Within the past 5-7 years or so.
But, like many that I've met around the world ( mostly on the internet ), I was once an "Arminian", or "non"Calvinist" for a good many years, until the Lord showed me the truth of election and after that, many other sobering and amazing things out of His word.
While I agree that the "TULIP" can and does get taught systematically, I've also experienced first-hand that only the Holy Spirit can teach the entire Bible.
In other words, try as we might, no man can transfer the complete understanding of the Bible to another man, like secular colleges do on other subjects.
That understanding can only come by the power and grace of God ( Isaiah 54:13, John 6:45, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ) and is part of His work in us.
Lastly, while I admire many things that Mr. Piper has to say,
I largely ignore today's teachers, for the most part, and simply trust the Lord for my understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).
I highly recommend anyone who is reading this to do the same.
No one out there today will ever be able to teach you everything that only the Lord can teach you, nor could anyone in the past have done a more thorough and complete job of it.
The glory for revealing the truth of His word has and always will be His for the keeping.
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LOL, I was raised in free-will and went to Bible school where it was taught by every professor. The problem was that I couldn't find free-will anywhere in the Bible. The more I read, the more God's choosing me became obvious. In fact, like Piper, I fought against God because I wanted my right to rule and demand that I choose God, not God choose me. Like Piper, I could not escape Romans 9.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
As was I.
But the first time I was ever exposed to these three passages, it changed everything:
Romans 8:28-30.
Ephesians 1:4-5.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
After that, my interest in the Scriptures began to take off, and I started to almost devour the word of God compared to my previous 25 years or so.
Needless to say, I don't neglect His word anymore...
It's become quite precious to me.
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Sai
Well-Known Member
Sai
Well-Known Member
The problem is, he can't, he is DEAD!... Hehehehe... Brother Glen
The elect can
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Its my firm conviction that you cannot become a Calvinist from reading the Bible . Everyime I have read any notable calvinists testimony its true that 10 out of 10 they have been exposed to reformed theology before they understood the bible to any depth. I was fortunate to snap out of it before I went any further down the trail. This was true for me and it is the same experience for all that I've known personally . But ultimately it is impossible to believe in the 5 points without an outside influence . Augustine is responsible. I hear what your saying , but forgive my response which may suggest I dont believe you . We can all be decieved ( my self uncluded ) so I have to go by the scriptures. because of my experience with calvinism, to which I was subtley ' drawn ' into be accident ,through listening to debates . Gradually I was absorbing calvinism without realising . I've then spent subsequently 2 years now researching Calvinism as to how people are decieved into it .The reality of this , I pray you will see , if you lay down the presups and re read the bible you will be shocked to see how none of the 5 points actually exist in the bible. A bold claim, but I can now demonstrate from the scriptures.I've never been to one, Barry.
Perhaps, but I personally know of far more "Arminians" / "Traditionalists / Provisionists" / "Molinists" who have been to seminaries than the other way around.
I also know of many who have never been to seminary, and came to what you call "Calvinism" by strictly reading the Scriptures for themselves.
Are you completely sure that it's the seminaries that are responsible for turning out people who believe in election, predestination, calling and so forth, and not Someone else?
I've been a believer for over 42 years, Barry, and I'm more grounded in the Scriptures now, by His grace and mercy, than I ever was back in the 1980's as a young believer in Jesus Christ.
I understand what you call "Calvinism" as the truth of the Bible, at least in the so-called "5 Points", but I did not always believe that way.
In fact, I don't consider myself to have been well-grounded in the Scriptures until fairly recently...
Within the past 5-7 years or so.
But, like many that I've met around the world ( mostly on the internet ), I was once an "Arminian", or "non"Calvinist" for a good many years, until the Lord showed me the truth of election and after that, many other sobering and amazing things out of His word.
While I agree that the "TULIP" can and does get taught systematically, I've also experienced first-hand that only the Holy Spirit can teach the entire Bible.
In other words, try as we might, no man can transfer the complete understanding of the Bible to another man, like secular colleges do on other subjects.
That understanding can only come by the power and grace of God ( Isaiah 54:13, John 6:45, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ) and is part of His work in us.
Lastly, while I admire many things that Mr. Piper has to say,
I largely ignore today's teachers, for the most part, and simply trust the Lord for my understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).
I highly recommend anyone who is reading this to do the same.
No one out there today will ever be able to teach you everything that only the Lord can teach you, nor could anyone in the past have done a more thorough and complete job of it.
The glory for revealing the truth of His word has and always will be His for the keeping.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Dave G
Well-Known Member
That's where we differ greatly, Barry.
It is my firm conviction that one can.
I was never exposed to "Reformed Theology".
I grew up an Independent, Fundamental Baptist after hearing the Gospel in 1978.
However, I don't call what I see and believe from the Scriptures, "Calvinism", and I definitely arrived at it independent of men.
I'm here to tell you that it is not impossible, Barry.
That's fine if you disagree.
But just because you assert something based on not experiencing it for yourself, does not mean that there are exceptions to your rule.
Again, many people come to it with no outside influence.
William Tyndale, George Mueller, and many others within the past 400-500 years have done so...
Only one does not generally read about them in "theology" books and history books
Amen.
On that we agree, and I do so most wholeheartedly.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Barry,
We've been through all this, many times now...
Have we not?
The problem, as I see it, is that you're not believing the actual words on the page.
For example ( and this should be an easy one if one is paying attention to every word ):
" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
Straightforward and to the point...
How many believed in this passage, when Paul preached that day?
As many as were ordained ( appointed ) to eternal life.
Another:
" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
Believers are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.
Do you understand what that means?
It means exactly what it says...
No more, no less.
Yet you do not believe the actual words, apparently.
Barry, there is no "interpretation" needed...
One only has to read and believe what is written.
I believe those words by faith because God wrote them, not because a man "interpreted" them for me.
I also came to my understanding of those words over time and with much study.
So...at the end of it all, why did I become a "Calvinist"?
Because God showed me His words and I believed them by faith.
All of them.
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Yet, we all testify against you.
Dave G, I am always amazed when Reformed use this verse to prove their own election. Even if you were not ignoring the context and it meant what you said, in contradiction to everything else that is said about how gentiles are saved, it still would not prove that you are saved and appointed and you could not draw any hope for yourself from the text. What would you answer if someone asked you how you know you are appointed to eternal life? Would you say because some people in Acts 13:48 were appointed to believe? Of course it was not said they were appointed to believe, it said they were appointed to eternal life. There is a difference.
No Reformed person wants to interpret a verse just before this literally because it does not fit the template. It is this one;
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
What if you came on a forum with the argument that God does not judge men unworthy of eternal life, but men judge themselves unworthy of eternal life because Acts 13:46 says so?
But, put that aside for a minute. Isn't this a working out of the explanation we are given as to why God broke off the natural branches and grafted in gentiles in Rom 11? Wasn't it because of unbelief. Would he have saved these Jews in Acts 13 if they had not judged themselves unworthy of eternal life? Would God have saved these Jews if they would have believed?
Please answer these questions with a yes or no so we can know where you stand.
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off (these guys in Acts 13), and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, (can God change his mind about who he elects, cuts off, then re-elects according to you?) shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
I am sorry, Dave G, but aren't you confused about the whole matter?
37818
Well-Known Member
Everything and anything anyone reads or hears is interpretated by one's presuppostions and understanding of one's own language and use and meaings of words.
A case in point would be the words "having been saved" has two meanings between Arminianism/Free Will Baptists and the Once Saved Always Saved point of view.
What is wrong with the saying "Once Saved Always Saved" is, that saying uses the Arminianism/Free Will Baptists meaning of "having been saved."
The person who dies and goes to Heaven was saved and the person who dies and does not go to Heaven was not saved. To say one who dies and does not go to Heaven not being saved was saved and lost is a non sequitur.
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
A jehovah witness can quote 5 verses and prove the watchtower is correct . Im yet to hear any context given to any verses yet ? Each time I'm pushing back with context.Barry,
We've been through all this, many times now...
Have we not?
The problem, as I see it, is that you're not believing the actual words on the page.
For example ( and this should be an easy one if one is paying attention to every word ):
" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
Straightforward and to the point...
How many believed in this passage, when Paul preached that day?
As many as were ordained ( appointed ) to eternal life.
Another:
" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
Believers are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.
Do you understand what that means?
It means exactly what it says...
No more, no less.
Yet you do not believe the actual words, apparently.
Barry, there is no "interpretation" needed...
One only has to read and believe what is written.
I believe those words by faith because God wrote them, not because a man "interpreted" them for me.
I also came to my understanding of those words over time and with much study.
So...at the end of it all, why did I become a "Calvinist"?
Because God showed me His words and I believed them by faith.
All of them.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Could you give valid context for your view on Acts 13 .48 please from the Chapter and surrounding verses?Barry,
We've been through all this, many times now...
Have we not?
The problem, as I see it, is that you're not believing the actual words on the page.
For example ( and this should be an easy one if one is paying attention to every word ):
" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
Straightforward and to the point...
How many believed in this passage, when Paul preached that day?
As many as were ordained ( appointed ) to eternal life.
Another:
" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
Believers are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.
Do you understand what that means?
It means exactly what it says...
No more, no less.
Yet you do not believe the actual words, apparently.
Barry, there is no "interpretation" needed...
One only has to read and believe what is written.
I believe those words by faith because God wrote them, not because a man "interpreted" them for me.
I also came to my understanding of those words over time and with much study.
So...at the end of it all, why did I become a "Calvinist"?
Because God showed me His words and I believed them by faith.
All of them.
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