How did you discover the Bible teaches a pre-trib rapture?

[37818]

A simple question with a complicated answer. I started questioning the "End Times / Rapture" view in the early 90s (just after I returned from the Gulf War). However, I wasn't sure what to make of those passages. I ran across Gary DeMar's teachings on YouTube, and they made sense to me. I realized that I had only been taking the word of the "prophecy experts" and reading their view into Scripture to make it fit. I started studying the Bible more critically, comparing Scripture with Scripture, trying to see what the author meant and how his original audience understood it.

A "new" reading of the Olivet Discourse convinced me that this was not the end of the world, but the end of the old covenant system with the destruction of Jerusalem. The "time indicators" were a big revelation for me. Jesus said "when you see", not "when they see". The prophetic passages use language to indicate the events were "near" for their original audiences. I apologize for the lengthy response. My wife says that I can take all day to say what she could in two minutes.

Yes, Jesus told His disciples "when you see." Two things to note, first the plural "you" can refer to an audiance beyond whom is being spoken to. Two examples, Matthew 3:11-12, John uses "you" to refer to his audiance and others. The saved, future saved will be immersed in the Holy Spirit by Jesus after He ascends to Heaven, and the lost will be immersed in fire in the future judgement (Revelation 20:11-15). Second example, Jesus says to Nicodemus, "I say to you (singular), You (plural) must be born again." That is, everyone must be born again. My point being the plural "you" in Matthew 24:33 refers to those who see the signs of His appearing Matthew 24:29.

 

[Lodic]

Yes, Jesus told His disciples "when you see." Two things to note, first the plural "you" can refer to an audiance beyond whom is being spoken to. Two examples, Matthew 3:11-12, John uses "you" to refer to his audiance and others. The saved, future saved will be immersed in the Holy Spirit by Jesus after He ascends to Heaven, and the lost will be immersed in fire in the future judgement (Revelation 20:11-15). Second example, Jesus says to Nicodemus, "I say to you (singular), You (plural) must be born again." That is, everyone must be born again. My point being the plural "you" in Matthew 24:33 refers to those whom see the signs of His appearing Matthew 24:29.

While I see your point, I think it's much more likely that He means "you" in the plural sense, but only to His original audience. All believers from Pentecost onward are immersed in the Holy Spirit. This is spoken in the singular, but applies to each believer. Same thing when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again, and we know that all of us must be born again. "You" is used in the singular sense, and each of us can apply it in the singular. Everyone from the 1st century onward must be born again.

However, in the case of "you will see", He tells the disciples that they will see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, the abomination of desolation, etc. - which they did. In the "futurist" view, it's still "singular because only the generation alive when Jesus comes again sees these things. It's still the same thing, but the time frame is moved.

 

[John of Japan]

1 Thessalonians 4:17, "shall be caught up." and "angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:31.

That's not what I asked. I was asking about the Olivet Discourse, not 1 Thess.

Well, as I understand Hebrews 9:28 and 1 John 3:2, this happens that He shall "appear a second time." His first appearing being that "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many." There is no middle appearing, unless you want to count Stephen (Acts of the Apostles 7:56) and Saul (1 Corinthians 15:8). The difference being they saw Christ in His glory. Where as when Christ ascended to be our mediator (Hebrews 9:24), He did so once and for all (Hebrews 9:12) until He makes his second appearing (Hebrews 9:28.) So there is no middle coming.

Agreed. Those were visions to individuals. not a coming to all believers or the world.

There remains the church God's temple made up of us believers and then there are the local churches. The term translated "church" is not even used in Revelation 21.

That's my point. The word is "church" not used anywhere in Revelation after Rev. ch. 3. So for you to say the church is in Rev. 4-22, you have to define it. So far you seem to think a church is just a bunch of believers, not even necessarily gathered together.

An evangelistic crusade can be regarded as a non regular church meeting.

My point was not about evangelistic crusades per se, but cooperative mass evangelism such as Billy Graham did. In that model of evangelistic crusade, many churches cooperated. It was a meeting of believers, but not a church. No one ever called it a church, and no model of ecclesiology considers such a meeting to be a church, though it was a meeting of believers.

In a proper ecclesiology, not to mention the Greek lexical meaning, a church is not simply a meeting of believers.

As for Revelation 14:13, there is also Revelation 7:9-14 and those mentioned in Revelation 20:4.

How are any of these a church? What in the world do you think a local church is? Prove to me that any of these passages mean a church--perhaps you should define a church first.

None of these passages mention the activities of a local church in the NT: meeting for encouragement (Heb. 10:25), leaders serving the believers (Eph. 4:11), baptism, the Lord's Supper, the Great Commission, meeting on the Lord's Day to honor the resurrection, etc.

 

[37818]

While I see your point, I think it's much more likely that He means "you" in the plural sense, but only to His original audience. All believers from Pentecost onward are immersed in the Holy Spirit. This is spoken in the singular, but applies to each believer. Same thing when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again, and we know that all of us must be born again. "You" is used in the singular sense, and each of us can apply it in the singular. Everyone from the 1st century onward must be born again.

However, in the case of "you will see", He tells the disciples that they will see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, the abomination of desolation, etc. - which they did. In the "futurist" view, it's still "singular because only the generation alive when Jesus comes again sees these things. It's still the same thing, but the time frame is moved.

Yes, Jesus said, "when you shall see . . . ." Matthew 24:33.
Well, I explained my understanding. When I gave that expliantion to an orthodox preterist advocate, she simply said it was "silly." This thead is for pre tribers to give what persuaded them to believe in the pre trib rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Thank you.

 

[Lodic]

Yes, Jesus said, "when you shall see . . . ." Matthew 24:33.
Well, I explained my understanding. When I gave that expliantion to an orthodox preterist advocate, she simply said it was "silly." This thead is for pre tribers to give what persuaded them to believe in the pre trib rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Thank you.

Not a silly view at all. I just take a different view. Anyway, I will leave this thread for the pre-trib folks. You have been most gracious. May God bless you and yours in all your endeavors.

 

[Iconoclast]

John of Japan,


HelloJOJ,

As for what proves a pre-trib position, as I noted to you on a different thread, the word "church" occurs nowhere in Rev. after ch. 2-3.

As for Revelation 14:13, of course it refers to believers dying for the Lord. I believe many will believe in Christ during the Tribulation and die for Him, but that verse does not mention an earthly assembly which can be called a church. In fact, the believers in that verse are not even gathered together. Even so, if they were, simply believers being together does not equal a church, or every Billy Graham Crusade would have been a church, and no one called them that.

Seven individual local assemblies are addressed in ch2-3. They were there for John to address them. The Actual word church you note is not mentioned in most of the book,okay.
Individual Kingdom members in an unassembled condition are dying for the Lord.

Now according to your own post...the church is not mentioned to have gone anywhere.

I have seen some people try and say for example that Rev4:1 indicates a rapture before the last day.; that is not taught here as "the church" is not mentioned, only John individually is mentioned.
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The church was on earth and nowhere is revelation is the church mentioned going anywhere.

 

[Yeshua1]

I discovered for my self the Bible taught a post trib rapture, and did not know it until I had studied the issue. So my question is, did you learn this from the Bible yourself or did you accept the arguments from others first, reading the pre-trib view into Scripture?

I held to this viewpoint for most of my saved lifetime, and it only when got into Covenant theology from a reformed Baptist perspective did it make more sense that the historical premil position , or even mid trib position, seemed to be better supported!

 

[37818]

That's not what I asked. I was asking about the Olivet Discourse, not 1 Thess.

Gathering of the elect Matthew 24:29-31.

That's my point. The word is "church" not used anywhere in Revelation after Rev. ch. 3. So for you to say the church is in Rev. 4-22, you have to define it. So far you seem to think a church is just a bunch of believers, not even necessarily gathered together.

As I understand the use of the term "church" there are two uses. The Body of Christ as a whole, the term "church" in the singular (Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 2:19-22 term not being used there). And local churches (Romans 16:16). Revelation 21 is commonly understood to be the church, the bride of Christ, again the term "church" is not being used.

My point was not about evangelistic crusades per se, but cooperative mass evangelism such as Billy Graham did. In that model of evangelistic crusade, many churches cooperated. It was a meeting of believers, but not a church. No one ever called it a church, and no model of ecclesiology considers such a meeting to be a church, though it was a meeting of believers.

Ok.

In a proper ecclesiology, not to mention the Greek lexical meaning, a church is not simply a meeting of believers.
How are any of these a church? What in the world do you think a local church is? Prove to me that any of these passages mean a church--perhaps you should define a church first.

The Greek you know. It is my understanding our English word "church" comes indirectly from the Greek for the "Lord's."

None of these passages mention the activities of a local church in the NT: meeting for encouragement (Heb. 10:25), leaders serving the believers (Eph. 4:11), baptism, the Lord's Supper, the Great Commission, meeting on the Lord's Day to honor the resurrection, etc.

Ok.

 

[asterisktom]

Hmm...never heard of those...any good?

It has been so long, brother, I don't remember if the style was good. The content certainly isn't. But often books one disagrees with still prompts us to study.

 

[Dave G]

Beware of people who say "Jesus said" and then write what they want Him to have said.

With respect,
Let's see what Jesus said ( not what robycop3 said ) in the passage in question:

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:29-31 )

Here it is, in sequence, based on Jesus own words:

1) Immediately after the tribulation, the sun is darkened, the moon is darkened, the stars shall fall from Heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
2) Then the sign of the Son of man ( Jesus Christ ) shall appear in Heaven. The tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see Jesus coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory.
3) Then He sends His angels, with the great sound of a trumpet, to gather His elect from the four winds.

So, here we have Christ coming in the clouds with power and great glory, immediately after the tribulation, gathering His elect from every corner of the world and then He does this ( Zechariah 14:4 ).
Mark 13:3-27 echos the same, exact sequence of events as Matthew 24:4-31, only it mentions a few different details.

In Luke 21:5-28, Christ is speaking of still more of the details of His coming that were not revealed in the other passages...
Taking it by itself seems to give one picture, but taking them all together yields a completely different picture, as I see it.
The Gospel accounts are a composite.
They are not meant to be taken separately, but in parallel.

Take everything that is said and combine it, and there it is.
It has nothing to do with anyone wanting Him to say something, it is what He actually said right on the pages.

Christ does not come until immediately after the tribulation.
Christ does not gather His sheep, living or dead, until immediately after the tribulation.
But He does come immediately after the tribulation.




May God bless you.

 

[asterisktom]

I like that you emphasized the "immediately after the tribulation of those days". That is exactly what I would emphasize. But I am unclear on when you think those days were/will be. The context here - and the other accounts taken compositely - clearly points to the first century.

 

[asterisktom]

With respect,
Let's see what Jesus said ...

See my comment below. For some reason your quote didn't show up.

 

[asterisktom]

With respect,
Let's see what Jesus said ( not what robycop3 said ) in the passage in question:

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man ...

I don't think you understand my point of disagreement with Robycop. He views the events of Matthew 24 to be actually cosmological and permanent events. But Christ's words are quite in line with the apocalyptical passages in the Old Testament. Hills have melted, stars have fallen, etc Because Christian's are largely unfamiliar with the OT they read these similar NT passages too literally.

 

[37818]

I don't think you understand my point of disagreement with Robycop. He views the events of Matthew 24 to be actually cosmological and permanent events. But Christ's words are quite in line with the apocalyptical passages in the Old Testament. Hills have melted, stars have fallen, etc Because Christian's are largely unfamiliar with the OT they read these similar NT passages too literally.

The prophecy of this one event in question is propphecied six times in the OT. And cited five times in the NT. Jesus called it something one can see. Matthew 24:33.

 

[Dave G]

I like that you emphasized the "immediately after the tribulation of those days". That is exactly what I would emphasize. But I am unclear on when you think those days were/will be. The context here - and the other accounts taken compositely - clearly points to the first century.

Most of it is yet to come.

There has been no tribulation such as the world has never seen....yet.
What we're looking for is the world-wide equivalent of what happened in Egypt when God used Moses to plague it.

Can you describe such an event from history?

 

[Dave G]

Because Christian's are largely unfamiliar with the OT they read these similar NT passages too literally.

I think you are reading many of them too allegorically...which is where I think you're getting "preterism" from.

 

[asterisktom]

I think you are reading many of them too allegorically...which is where I think you're getting "preterism" from.

You are not reading Christ's "This generation shall not pass away until ..." carefully enough. Carefully reconsider this issue. Your futurism is clouding your perception of plain Bible teaching.

 

[Dave G]

Tom,

There are far too many passages that I believe you are not taking seriously.
As I see it, you're asking me to believe that Anti-Christ has come, millions have taken the mark, the tribulation has already happened and that Christ is sitting on the throne of David in Jerusalem right now.

He isn't.
I'm sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree.

May God bless you.

 

[asterisktom]

Most of it is yet to come.

There has been no tribulation such as the world has never seen....yet.
What we're looking for is the world-wide equivalent of what happened in Egypt when God used Moses to plague it.

Can you describe such an event from history?

Yes. The Jewish War from the 60's to 73 fits Christ's description, not your's. It was not worldwide. It was through the entire Diaspora, which pretty much was the same extent as the Roman Empire.

As far as the degree of tribulation is concerned we must not just look at physical casualties - though that was high - but at the spiritual loss: Those who were once God's chosen people lost their place, the vineyard given to others who would render their fruit in their season (quoting from memory).

 

[asterisktom]

Tom,

There are far too many passages that I believe you are not taking seriously.
As I see it, you're asking me to believe that Anti-Christ has come, millions have taken the mark, the tribulation has already happened and that Christ is sitting on the throne of David in Jerusalem right now.

He isn't.
I'm sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree.

May God bless you.

I read this after I already posted. OK, fair enough. Take care, brother.