How did you discover the Bible teaches a pre-trib rapture?

[John of Japan]

John, I apologize for interrupting your discussion with David, but I have a question if you don't mind. Could you elaborate a bit on what you teach regarding Dispensationalism? If it's not the same as Darby and Scofield taught, how is it different? I thought there was only one form of this doctrine. What makes it closer to Watts? Thank you, Brother.

Not a problem. I'm happy to answer.

Our textbook is Dispensationalism, by Charles Ryrie, the standard one at most dispensationalist schools. There are essentially four versions of the theology nowadays, as delineated by Ryrie: traditional (Scofield), revised (Ryrie), progressive (Bock and Blaising at Dallas TS, more of a compromise with covenant theology), and ultra (Bullinger, O'Hair, Stam).

Scofield was much closer in his explanations and his dispensations to Isaac Watts than to Darby. You can read about this in an article available on the Internet, "WAS ISAAC WATTS A PROTO-DISPENSATIONALIST?"
by Scott Aniol, from the Detroit Baptist TS Journal. I don't have time to look this up for you, sorry; have to teach in a few minutes.

Ryrie updates Scofield in some important places, notably in the definition of a dispensation. Scofield includes time in his definition, but Ryrie (following the Greek word oikonomia) does not. It is a stewardship, not an era, in revised dispensationalism.

Have to run!

 

[John of Japan]

What we call the "second coming" is only spoken of in holy scripture as , ". . . appear the second time . . . " (Hebrews 9:28).

The Greek word there for "appear" is hophtheomai, which is a passive of horao, and means "to be seen." So Heb. 9:28 is speaking of a physical appearance of Jesus Christ.

 

[37818]

The Greek word there for "appear" is hophtheomai, which is a passive of horao, and means "to be seen." So Heb. 9:28 is speaking of a physical appearance of Jesus Christ.

The incarnation, life, death and resurrection were Christ's first appearance.

 

[John of Japan]

The incarnation, life, death and resurrection were Christ's first appearance.

Yes, of course.

 

[John of Japan]

I would say just the opposite. If he meant individuals he would have said temples. If he had, I would have believed that. He said temple. One temple, the Church.

We'll agree to disagree.

 

[37818]

Yes, of course.

The point I am making is that there are only the two appearings of Christ. The past and the yet future. (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.)

 

[John of Japan]

The point I am making is that there are only the two appearings of Christ. The past and the yet future. (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.)

Okay. Thanks for being so obtuse.

This does not affect the pretrib position at all.

 

[37818]

Okay. Thanks for being so obtuse.

This does not affect the pretrib position at all.

Please explain how a sole second appearing of Christ has no affect on a pretrib rapture? (Hebrews 9:28; 1 John 3:2).
Thank you.

 

[John of Japan]

Please explain how a sole second appearing of Christ has no affect on a pretrib rapture? (Hebrews 9:28; 1 John 3:2).
Thank you.

Well, first of all, these two references don't prove your point in the slightest, so it is misleading for you to post them.

But to answer your question, it's quite simple. In the Rapture, Christ comes in the air, and we are caught up to meet him there (1 Thess. 4:17). It's not a "coming" to the earth. If I come to the sidewalk in front of your house and holler out, "Come out here," and you do, did I visit you at home? Nope.

 

[37818]

Well, first of all, these two references don't prove your point in the slightest, so it is misleading for you to post them.

But to answer your question, it's quite simple. In the Rapture, Christ comes in the air, and we are caught up to meet him there (1 Thess. 4:17). It's not a "coming" to the earth. If I come to the sidewalk in front of your house and holler out, "Come out here," and you do, did I visit you at home? Nope.

So at the rapture Christ does not make an appearing as to be seen at all? And it is not to be understood to even be any kind of coming, to be a second coming? The only reference to a "second" appearing, which would be a second coming is Hebrews 9:28. Now 1 Thessalonians 4:15, as I understand it, teaches in no way will the rapture take place until the dead Christ brings with Him are raised.

 

[Yeshua1]

John, I apologize for interrupting your discussion with David, but I have a question if you don't mind. Could you elaborate a bit on what you teach regarding Dispensationalism? If it's not the same as Darby and Scofield taught, how is it different? I thought there was only one form of this doctrine. What makes it closer to Watts? Thank you, Brother.

Actually, there are 4 main forms of it taught and held!
Classic view, best evidenced in Scofield bible
Majority view one on Ryrie and MacArthur study Bibles
Progressive as held by some at Dts
Hyper Dispy those who would tend to see only books of Paul as inspired to us for today

 

[Yeshua1]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 does not give a timing of His second advent, ergo, all eschatological systems use it for proof theirs is the correct one.

1 Corinthians 15:50ff is the same way.

Then Revelation 4:1 says John was called up, not anyone else, not ary other believer, just John alone. So to use that as proof the church is raptured at that time is speculation at best.

Those who hold to pre-trib use the ark as proof God will rapture believers pre-trib. Hmmmmph, that ark went through the flood and were not raptured out and then brought back down after the waters receded.

However, in Matthew 24 we read...29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. So, it seems to me that believers will go through the GT, but will be protected just as Noah and seven others were, and the Jews in Egypt were during those ten plagues.

Depends if one views those elect as being of the Church, or of saved Jews!

 

[Lodic]

Actually, there are 4 main forms of it taught and held!
Classic view, best evidenced in Scofield bible
Majority view one on Ryrie and MacArthur study Bibles
Progressive as held by some at Dts
Hyper Dispy those who would tend to see only books of Paul as inspired to us for today

Thank you, Brother. I try to keep up with the different views, but I hadn't realized there were so many.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Depends if one views those elect as being of the Church, or of saved Jews!

Saved Jews and saved Gentiles make up the church.

 

[John of Japan]

So at the rapture Christ does not make an appearing as to be seen at all?

His appearing in the clouds is not to be seen by all. We call it the secret rapture, after all.

And it is not to be understood to even be any kind of coming, to be a second coming?

It is the Rapture, not the 2nd Coming in Power and Glory.

The only reference to a "second" appearing, which would be a second coming is Hebrews 9:28.

And your point is?

Now 1 Thessalonians 4:15, as I understand it, teaches in no way will the rapture take place until the dead Christ brings with Him are raised.

Yes, of course the dead in Christ are raised first. And in the same event, the Rapture, we living saints will join them in the air. It's all one event. And it happens in the air, not on earth.

In the 2nd Coming in power and glory, Christ will come down to earth itself (not the air) onto the Mt. of Olives, split it in two, conquer the Antichrist and his evil hordes "with the brightness of His coming," and rule the world on David's throne.

 

[37818]

Saved Jews and saved Gentiles make up the church.

Yes. But they are distinguished from each other too (Romans 11:6-25; Galatians 6:16; Revelation 21).

 

[David Kent]

Well, first of all, these two references don't prove your point in the slightest, so it is misleading for you to post them.

But to answer your question, it's quite simple. In the Rapture, Christ comes in the air, and we are caught up to meet him there (1 Thess. 4:17). It's not a "coming" to the earth. If I come to the sidewalk in front of your house and holler out, "Come out here," and you do, did I visit you at home? Nope.

Coming in the air, or "coming to the air " is a classic Brethen teaching . Neo Brethren still continue this teaching for which there is absolutely no scriptural teaching.

 

[John of Japan]

Coming in the air, or "coming to the air " is a classic Brethen teaching . Neo Brethren still continue this teaching for which there is absolutely no scriptural teaching.

Oh, sorry. Coming in the clouds. There, everything okay? Oh, but wait, I think the clouds are up there in the air, aren't they....

(Oh, and the neo-Brethren thing? Lose it. This is a Baptist place. I mean really. )

 

[John of Japan]

Coming in the air, or "coming to the air " is a classic Brethen teaching . Neo Brethren still continue this teaching for which there is absolutely no scriptural teaching.

So, what do you make of this one, which specifically says that Christ will come in the clouds, and we will meet Him in the air?

1 Thess. 4:17--"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Every other time that this Greek word (aer) is used in the NT, it refers to the physical air. There is never, ever a time when "air" is "spiritual" in the Bible. It always means pretty much what we mean by it.

Here are some lexicons on the word:

Friberg: "(1) as the space immediately above the earth air, atmosphere (1C 14.9); (2) as a substance air; equivalent to nothing in 1C 9.26; (3) as the space between heaven and earth inhabited by spirit-beings sky, air (EP 2.2)."

Louw-Nida, "air."

Abbot-Smith, "the lower air that surrounds the earth."

BADG, "air."

Liddel-Scott, "the lower air." This is the classical Greek lexicon, and I also checked Homer's "Odyssey" and yes, it uses "air" just like we do, except that in classical Greek there was also an "upper air," aither.

 

[37818]

His appearing in the clouds is not to be seen by all. We call it the secret rapture, after all.

That depends on what one believes about His appearing (Matthew 24:27; Revelation 1:7).

It is the Rapture, not the 2nd Coming in Power and Glory.

That is the pre-trib view. How do we prove that is an irrefutable case?

And your point is?

The "second" appearing is the second coming. There is only the two.

Yes, of course the dead in Christ are raised first. And in the same event, the Rapture, we living saints will join them in the air. It's all one event. And it happens in the air, not on earth.

Not all the dead in Christ? (Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 14:13; Revelation 20:4-6)

In the 2nd Coming in power and glory, Christ will come down to earth itself (not the air) onto the Mt. of Olives, split it in two, conquer the Antichrist and his evil hordes "with the brightness of His coming," and rule the world on David's throne.

Titus 2:13. Hebrews 9:28.