How did you first come to your pre-trib rapture view?

[Piper]

How did you first come to your pre-trib rapture view?


It was from the beginning what I was taught pre-trib. It was not until I studied the question, I discovered the Scripture taught a post trib rapture.

In my first IFB church a guy taught a SS class and had charts and tables and I thought that every Baptist believed the same. Then seminary was pre-trib. Then I read Ladd's book The Blessed Hope and was convinced of Post trib. Of course this was 19 years later.

 

[kyredneck]

how cold this be? WW1 and WW2 both made what happened in the first century look like a walk in the park.. It is supposed to be the greates tribulation (trouble) the world (Israel) had ever seen..

The 'great tribulation', i.e.' Jacob's trouble', is done already.:

23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.
Mt 24

19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

No other slaughter/genocide in history, including the massacres at Merv and Nanking, matches that which occurred at Jerusalem A.D. 70. The Jews virtually self destructed, it was suicide, the infighting/civil war/self destruction that broke out among 'that generation' killed as many or more as the Roman army did. They literally became demon possessed mad men that turned on each other. From that aspect alone it was indeed "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be".

43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

 

[37818]

. . . time of Gods wrath all starting in rev 4 . . . .

Why Revelation 4? First mention in Revelation is Revelation 6:16. And it's second explicit mention is in Revelation 11:18. Which is explicitly after the seventh trumpet Revelation 11:15.

 

[robycop3]

How did you first come to your pre-trib rapture view?


It was from the beginning what I was taught pre-trib. It was not until I studied the question, I discovered the Scripture taught a post trib rapture.

From Rev. 3:10.

 

[robycop3]

The 'great tribulation', i.e.' Jacob's trouble', is done already.:

23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.
Mt 24

19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

No other slaughter/genocide in history, including the massacres at Merv and Nanking, matches that which occurred at Jerusalem A.D. 70. The Jews virtually self destructed, it was suicide, the infighting/civil war/self destruction that broke out among 'that generation' killed as many or more as the Roman army did. They literally became demon possessed mad men that turned on each other. From that aspect alone it was indeed "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be".

43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

No, it's not even started yet. The plagues/judgments of the seals, trumps, & bowls of wrath haven't yet hit the whole earth. When they do, they'll come in rapid succession. The generation that sees them begin will see'em all.

 

[kyredneck]

No, it's not even started yet. The plagues/judgments of the seals, trumps, & bowls of wrath haven't yet hit the whole earth. When they do, they'll come in rapid succession. The generation that sees them begin will see'em all.

Dispy twist: Plain time statements given in the scriptures, i.e., "this generation shall not pass away", or "the time is at hand", or "a very little while", or "must shortly come to pass", or "I come quickly", or "shall in no wise taste of death till", really means thousands of years...and still waiting.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The 'great tribulation', i.e.' Jacob's trouble', is done already.:

23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.
Mt 24

19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

No other slaughter/genocide in history, including the massacres at Merv and Nanking, matches that which occurred at Jerusalem A.D. 70. The Jews virtually self destructed, it was suicide, the infighting/civil war/self destruction that broke out among 'that generation' killed as many or more as the Roman army did. They literally became demon possessed mad men that turned on each other. From that aspect alone it was indeed "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be".

43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

that generation has not been born yet..

well maybe not. They could be alive today.

Context my friend..

also look at the words

tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.

Again. WW1 and WW2 were far greater tribulations than 70 AD could ever be.. so it does not fit..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why Revelation 4? First mention in Revelation is Revelation 6:16. And it's second explicit mention is in Revelation 11:18. Which is explicitly after the seventh trumpet Revelation 11:15.

revelations 4 is when Christ opened the first seal, which is when the time of Gods wrath begins

 

[kyredneck]

Again. WW1 and WW2 were far greater tribulations than 70 AD could ever be.

WW1 & WW2 has nothing to do with the great violence that occurred with the passing of the Old Covenant.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

WW1 & WW2 has nothing to do with the great violence that occurred with the passing of the Old Covenant.

such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.

WW1 and WW2 is part of SHALL BE

 

[kyredneck]

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.
Mt 24

that generation has not been born yet..

Is "this generation" also 'not yet born' in your eschatology? Only minutes before this 'Olivet Discourse', Jesus had told the multitudes and his disciples:

35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

 

[kyredneck]

that generation has not been born yet..

Is "this generation" also 'not yet born' in your eschatology?:

But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17

 

[kyredneck]

that generation has not been born yet..

Is "this generation" also 'not yet born' in your eschatology?:

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

...there's many more "this generation" NT passages, maybe later.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is "this generation" also 'not yet born' in your eschatology?:

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

...there's many more "this generation" NT passages, maybe later.

Context.

there is one gospel which speaks of the events of 70 AD

another gospels speaks of the great tribulation which occures after the abomination of desolation. A tribulation so severe. Christ himself will have to return, because if he did not. No flesh would survive.

neither the Abomination of desolation. or the great tribulation has occured yet.. Let alone the return of Christ. In 70 AD the word did not have the technology to kill off all flesh on earth. we do today..

 

[37818]

revelations 4 is when Christ opened the first seal, which is when the time of Gods wrath begins

So you interpret Revelation 6:16-17 to refer back to beginning of those seals being opened. Ok. How do you get the rapture before then?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you interpret Revelation 6:16-17 to refer back to beginning of those seals being opened. Ok. How do you get the rapture before then?

I see the beginning of the seals as the beginning of wrath. and the stuff gets progressively worse yes.

As for how the rapture happens before.. The lord calls the church to meet him in the sky. and there they will be forever..

where do you see the BEMA seat judgment as taking place before we return to earth if the rapture is when Christ returns to earth?

 

[kyredneck]

neither the Abomination of desolation. or the great tribulation has occured yet.. Let alone the return of Christ. In 70 AD the word did not have the technology to kill off all flesh on earth. we do today..

You either disregard or are ignorant of scripture:

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

It's done already. Just as Christ promised, "I come quickly". The chief priests and Pharisees understood the prophecy, why can't you futurists?

 

[robycop3]

Dispy twist: Plain time statements given in the scriptures, i.e., "this generation shall not pass away", or "the time is at hand", or "a very little while", or "must shortly come to pass", or "I come quickly", or "shall in no wise taste of death till", really means thousands of years...and still waiting.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

OK, then ! Simply show us from actual unbiased history when any of the events happened besides the destruction of J & the temple. Please tell us when the AOD occurred. Please tell us who the beast & the false prophet were. Please tell us when the worldwide trib occurred, for instance, whenall life in the Mediterranean died & a third of the ships in it were destroyed. And if the trib has already occurred, WHEN DID JESUS PHYSICALLY, VISIBLY RETURN, SEEN BY ALL? ( Remember, He said He would return immediately after the trib!)

You either disregard or are ignorant of scripture:

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

It's done already. Just as Christ promised, "I come quickly". The chief priests and Pharisees understood the prophecy, why can't you futurists?

"I come quickly" means SPEED, not short period of time.

Now, please answer the questions I posed, or admit you can't.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You either disregard or are ignorant of scripture:

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

It's done already. Just as Christ promised, "I come quickly". The chief priests and Pharisees understood the prophecy, why can't you futurists?

yes

That was done

The GREAT tribulation. Has not yet been done.

In order for that to have been accomplished. Situations must have been met

Non have been met yet.

Don;t talk to me about disregarding or being ignorant. Look in the mirror

 

[kyredneck]

Please tell us when the AOD occurred.

None other than the Roman armies 66-70 AD

When You See Jerusalem Surrounded..... | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

Please tell us who the beast & the false prophet were.

There's plenty of differing opinions even amongst you sensationalists. My opinion is they weren't individuals per se, or even flesh and blood, but are the principalities, the powers, the world-rulers of that time, the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places [Ephesians 6:12].

Please tell us when the worldwide trib occurred, for instance, whenall life in the Mediterranean died & a third of the ships in it were destroyed.

During the same century that John the Baptist raised valleys, leveled mountains, graded the rough places, and straightened highways, and that he was also Elijah.

WHEN DID JESUS PHYSICALLY, VISIBLY RETURN, SEEN BY ALL?

It's odd, Jesus says His kingdom is not of this world and that it was to come without observation, and the writer of Hebrews calls it a mount that can't be touched. Considering Luke 17:20-24, I'm curious, where you say Jesus is going to abide when He returns to this realm?