How do Baptists view I Pet 3:21

[reformed_baptist]

The NT is extremely clear that the basis of a sinner being pardoned/forgiven/justified by God is the cross of jesus, His atoning death, but that sinners become saints and have eternal life WHEN theu belive in and receive Christ!

I don't disagree, but none of that is relevant to the discusion

No such creature as one being regenerated by god, and walking around for say years before placing faith in jesus! NO NT example of that, as the sinners were preached Christ, the Holy spirit quickened/enabled them to believe, and they they received!

Strawmen which little insight to the reformed soteriology.

repentence/regeneration/faith all part tof same process ,

Agreed!

NOT placing them in their sequential order here, just saying that ALL happen at time of a person being saved by act and Will of God!

And your scriptural proof for that is where exactly?

 

[reformed_baptist]

1 Jn 5:1 uses the perfect tense verb translated "is born" with the present tense participle "beleiveth" demonstrating that action of the participle is CONTEMPORARY ACTION with the action of the verb. This same construction is used by John three more times in this epistle with "born" of God.

Or it could be simply be saying that such faith involves of the present action of the divine life God has already bestowed - hence placing regeneration prior to faith.

There is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever any more than there is such a thing as an unregenerated believer.

Of course not, and perhaps you would care to point out where I have said such situation can exist - the reformed position is that faith is the inevitable result of regeneration.

Also, the very nature of regeneration as described in Ephesians 2:1-3; 8-10; 4:17-19, 24; 2 Cor. 3:3-6; 4:5-6; James 1:18; Titus 3:5; Col. 3:10; 1 Pet. 1:23-25; etc. demand that regeneration and coversion are in a LOGICAL cause and consequence relationship with each other

Agreed!

but without any CHRONOlogical order but are SIMELTANEOUS in action as in the bullet and hole analogy.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.1

I see regeneration - but not faith here!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.1
(Eph 2:8 KJV)


I see faith here but not regeneration - unless you are equating 'regerneration' with 'saved' which would be a catagory error.

Eph 4:17-19, 26, 2 Cor. 3:3-6 are irrelvant!

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.1
(2Co 4:5 KJV)

Seems to support my case not yours!

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (Jam 1:18 KJV)

Regeneration but no mention of faith! the same goes for Tituis 3:5 etc, etc.

Not one of these verse makes the case that regeneration and faith happen at the same time.

God turns us but if God turns us we are turning and thus the cause and consequence are chronologically simeltaneous even though there is a distinction between cause and effect.

Your view has God turning us but we are not turning!

No, my view has God enabling us to turn, and the excercise of faith being a result of that enabling to turn. Your view effect and cause similtaneous.

 

[Yeshua1]

Or it could be simply be saying that such faith involves of the present action of the divine life God has already bestowed - hence placing regeneration prior to faith.



Of course not, and perhaps you would care to point out where I have said such situation can exist - the reformed position is that faith is the inevitable result of regeneration.

Also, the very nature of regeneration as described in Ephesians 2:1-3; 8-10; 4:17-19, 24; 2 Cor. 3:3-6; 4:5-6; James 1:18; Titus 3:5; Col. 3:10; 1 Pet. 1:23-25; etc. demand that regeneration and coversion are in a LOGICAL cause and consequence relationship with each other

Agreed!

You cannot have regenerated persons walking around and not be placing faith in jesus to be "saved, as regeneration/faith occurs at same time, as one is act of God, other act of man!

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.1

I see regeneration - but not faith here!

The "quickening" is the act of God that allows/enables the elect to place their faith in jesus and get saved by God!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.1
(Eph 2:8 KJV)


I see faith here but not regeneration - unless you are equating 'regerneration' with 'saved' which would be a catagory error.

Again, the elect are regenerated by God at time when they will palce faith in christ!

Eph 4:17-19, 26, 2 Cor. 3:3-6 are irrelvant!

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.1
(2Co 4:5 KJV)

Seems to support my case not yours!

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (Jam 1:18 KJV)

Regeneration but no mention of faith! the same goes for Tituis 3:5 etc, etc.

Not one of these verse makes the case that regeneration and faith happen at the same time.



No, my view has God enabling us to turn, and the excercise of faith being a result of that enabling to turn. Your view effect and cause similtaneous.

regeneration causes the sinner to be anabled to hear and respond in faith towards message of the Cross, and happens at same time, at least from our perspective!

 

[Moriah]

regeneration causes the sinner to be anabled to hear and respond in faith towards message of the Cross, and happens at same time, at least from our perspective!

Please give scripture that says no one can believe in God after learning of Him.

 

[The Biblicist]

Please give scripture that says no one can believe in God after learning of Him.

Jn. 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jesus did not say "NO JEW" and if you put that in his mouth you pervert what he said!

Jesus does not say "NO SPECIAL CLASS OF JEWISH PEOPLE"

Jesus said "NO MAN"

Furthermore, the person that is drawn is equally raised up to eternal life - "I will raise HIM - antecedent is "draw HIM."

Now, watch how Moriah perverts the words of Christ, perverts the immediate context to make Christ mean "no Jew" when Christ said "no MAN."

 

[Moriah]

C'mon M, tell me you're not lazy:

That is a personal attack.
None of these links is links to explain which scripture you are using,
These links give me all kinds of sites to study, and I still would not know which one is the explanation of your beliefs.
Who really is the lazy one? You are the one who referenced the Bible without scriptures.

Isaac born after the Spirit

David made to hope while on his mother's breast

John the Baptist filled with the Spirit and jumping from joy while in his mother's womb

When I am told something about the Word of God, I like the person to give the scripture and explanation.
As I said before, from the scriptures you gave that you say are about Isaac, David, and John the Baptist being ‘regenerated’ before they are saved…I just do not see it. I do not see the word ‘regenerated’. Did you not say being regenerated is to be born again?

 

[Moriah]

Jn. 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That is DURING Jesus’ ministry on earth. ONLY believing Jews could come to Jesus. ONLY those Jews who already believed in God and loved God by obeying Him could come to Jesus. The rest of the Jews were cut off.

Jesus did not say "NO JEW" and if you put that in his mouth you p*****t what he said!
Jesus does not say "NO SPECIAL CLASS OF JEWISH PEOPLE"

Jesus said "NO MAN"

Jesus CAME ONLY FOR THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL. THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD. Who do you think were the lost sheep of Israel? Your Polish ancestors perhaps? NO, the lost sheep of Israel were the Israelites who believed in God.

Furthermore, the person that is drawn is equally raised up to eternal life - "I will raise HIM - antecedent is "draw HIM."

Again, when Jesus had his ministry on earth, he only came for those already belonging to God, the lost sheep of Israel.

AFTER Jesus died on the cross, THEN ALL PEOPLE COULD COME TO JESUS, NOT JUST THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL.

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

We are ALL DRAWN to God by the better hope given to us in the gospel. We DRAW near to God because of a better HOPE given us than that of the law; we hope in the perfection we receive through Jesus. See Hebrews 7:18, 19.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.

Matthew 15:26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

 

[The Biblicist]

That is DURING Jesus’ ministry on earth. ONLY believing Jews could come to Jesus.

So Jesus is completely ignorant he don't know how to say "No Jews can come to me" but blunders so badly that he says "No MAN can come".


So Jesus is so completely ignorant he does not know the difference between "no man" and "no Jews"?

So Jesus is so completely ignorant he does not know the difference between the words "no MAN" versus "no JEWS."?????

I thought you said "I LOVE GOD'S WORD"???? Why do you CHANGE IT then to read what you like???? Jesus did not say "No JEWS can come to me" but he said "No. MAN can come to me" or do you believe Jesus is so stupid he does not know how to pick his own words and YOU must pick them for him????

 

[Yeshua1]

That is DURING Jesus’ ministry on earth. ONLY believing Jews could come to Jesus. ONLY those Jews who already believed in God and loved God by obeying Him could come to Jesus. The rest of the Jews were cut off.


Jesus CAME ONLY FOR THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL. THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD. Who do you think were the lost sheep of Israel? Your Polish ancestors perhaps? NO, the lost sheep of Israel were the Israelites who believed in God.


Again, when Jesus had his ministry on earth, he only came for those already belonging to God, the lost sheep of Israel.

AFTER Jesus died on the cross, THEN ALL PEOPLE COULD COME TO JESUS, NOT JUST THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL.

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

We are ALL DRAWN to God by the better hope given to us in the gospel. We DRAW near to God because of a better HOPE given us than that of the law; we hope in the perfection we receive through Jesus. See Hebrews 7:18, 19.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.

Matthew 15:26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Unless the Lord grants us hearts to hear, minds to receive, we are ALL still "lost sheep", even after hearing about jesus and the Gospel!

 

[The Biblicist]

Q

Or it could be simply be saying that such faith involves of the present action of the divine life God has already bestowed - hence placing regeneration prior to faith.

The KJV translators knew Greek a little better than you do. The tense of the participle reveals its action in relationship to the primary verb "born". If the participle had been a completed action it would demand that action of the participle preceded the action of the verb. If the action of the participle was future completed action it would demand that the action of the participle followed the action of the verb. If the action of the participle was continuous or incomplete action it would demand the action of the participle is concurrent with the action of the verb. So the KJV correctly translated it "IS born" denoting concurrent action.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.1
(Eph 2:8 KJV)


I see faith here but not regeneration - unless you are equating 'regerneration' with 'saved' which would be a catagory error.

You fail to see that "quickened" is characterized by the phrase "by grace are ye SAVED" in verse 5 and so the very same statement repeated merely confirms that "saved" in verse 8 does refer to the act of quickening by God in verses 1 and 5 which is the CREATIVE work of God in verse 10.

The perfect tense paraphrastic construction in verse 8 point to such a completed action in the past that continues as a completed action and that is the act of quickening and that completed action occurs in connection with "faith" or "through" faith. Hence faith is attached to that completed action in the past which stands complete up to the present. Since that completed action was obtained "THROUGH FAITH" so also does that faith continue up to the present time. It is this whole phrase "for by grace are ye saved through faith" that is NOT OF YOURSELVES because faith is a gift of God (see John 6:64-65) as much as the quickening is a gift of God. Together they are His workmanship created "IN CHRIST JESUS"

Eph 4:17-19, 26, 2 Cor. 3:3-6 are irrelvant!

Only if you think that spiritual death is not SEPARATION from God? Do you? Ephesians 4:18 demands that alienation from THE LIFE OF GOD is due to ignorance which the EMPOWERED gospel revelation reverses (2 Cor. 4:6) as the empowerd gospel is God the Holy Spirit writing that revelation upon the heart producing a new heart (2 Cor. 3:3-6) which is the promise of the New Covenant according to Ezek. 36:26!

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.1
(2Co 4:5 KJV)

Seems to support my case not yours!

You need to read it more carefully. Paul is likening the revelation of the gospel to the inward man to that of God in Genesis 1:3 calling light out of darkness. That is the effectual call when the gospel comes not in word only but in POWER and IN THE SPIRIT (1 Thes. 1:5).

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (Jam 1:18 KJV)

Regeneration but no mention of faith! the same goes for Tituis 3:5 etc, etc.

You need to understand the mechanics of the effectual call. The effectual call is through the gospel (2 Thes. 2:13b-14). The gospel comes in word only to the non-elect but to the elect it comes IN POWER and IN THE SPIRIT so that it cleanses the human spirit from sin (Tit. 3:5) and restores the image of God (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) creating a "new" inward man in true holiness and righteousness after the image of God. Faith is inseparable from the empowered Gospel becuase "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the RHEMA of God - the command of God. The gospel is the object of faith but when empowered it is also the source of gospel faith so that therein is the righteousness of God REVEALED "from (ek) of faith to (eis) faith! The empowered Gospel revelation produces faith (ek) but also provides the object of faith (eis) = Rom. 1:17.

 

[Moriah]

So Jesus is completely ignorant he don't know how to say "No Jews can come to me" but blunders so badly that he says "No MAN can come".

No man could come to Jesus when he was on earth, unless allowed to by God.
Jesus was speaking to Jews.

I thought you said "I LOVE GOD'S WORD"???? Jesus did not say "No JEWS can come to me" but he said "No. MAN can come to me" or do you believe Jesus is so stupid he does not know how to pick his own words and YOU must pick them for him????

Jesus was speaking to Jews.

Jesus even spoke in ways that those whom he did not come to save yet would not understand.

Oh how I love the Word of God.

 

[Winman]

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Until a man has the indwelling Holy Spirit, he is a natural man, he is still in the flesh. No man is a spiritual man, a regenerate man until he has the indwelling Holy Spirit.

All scripture tells us a person receives the indwelling Holy Spirit AFTER first believing.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The scriptures do not say a person is regenerated to have faith at the same moment, the scriptures say AFTER a person believes they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Spirit after first hearing and believing the gospel.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter's statement here is plain and unmistakeable, a person must first repent and believe on Jesus for the remission of their sins, and afterward they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 shows that no man is "spiritual" until he has the indwelling Holy Spirit. Until a man receives the Spirit he is a natural man, he is still "in the flesh". But all scripture shows a man receives the indwelling Holy Spirit after they believe. Therefore, scripture proves the natural man has the ability to believe, and if he does he will receive the Spirit and become a "spiritual" person.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Thousands of Jews believed on Jesus Christ before he was crucified, but none of them had the indwelling Holy Spirit. These were all natural men, they were in the flesh, yet they believed on Jesus. After Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified, afterward they received the Spirit.

 

[The Biblicist]

No man could come to Jesus when he was on earth, unless allowed to by God.
Jesus was speaking to Jews.

That is a lie of the Devil with not one contextual based evidence to support it. He did not say "WHILE I AM ON EARTH no Jew can come unto me" because he constantly invited ALL to come unto him!

Jesus was speaking to Jews.

but he was speaking to MEN about natural ability to come to him which was not restricted to JEWISH men but was the case with ALL men just as Paul clearly states in Romans 3:9 that ALL men both Jews AND Gentiles are equally all "UNDER SIN" meaning they are UNDER THE CONTROL OF SIN as immediately described in Romans 3:10-18.

Jews are not born with a DIFFERENT humanity than GENTILES but that is what you rediculous explanation demands.

Jesus even spoke in ways that those whom he did not come to save yet would not understand.

Oh how I love the Word of God.

The typical JEWISH GNOSTIC explanation! You can't deal with the context so you play the CULTIC card!

 

[Moriah]

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Until a man has the indwelling Holy Spirit, he is a natural man, he is still in the flesh. No man is a spiritual man, a regenerate man until he has the indwelling Holy Spirit.

All scripture tells us a person receives the indwelling Holy Spirit AFTER first believing.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The scriptures do not say a person is regenerated to have faith at the same moment, the scriptures say AFTER a person believes they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Spirit after first hearing and believing the gospel.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter's statement here is plain and unmistakeable, a person must first repent and believe on Jesus for the remission of their sins, and afterward they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 shows that no man is "spiritual" until he has the indwelling Holy Spirit. Until a man receives the Spirit he is a natural man, he is still "in the flesh". But all scripture shows a man receives the indwelling Holy Spirit after they believe. Therefore, scripture proves the natural man has the ability to believe, and if he does he will receive the Spirit and become a "spiritual" person.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Thousands of Jews believed on Jesus Christ before he was crucified, but none of them had the indwelling Holy Spirit. These were all natural men, they were in the flesh, yet they believed on Jesus. After Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified, afterward they received the Spirit.

This is very nice, Winman.
I am getting ready though, for the different belief that is going to have us disagreeing. I hope that I have found another person with whom I am like-minded.

People are to believe and confess. People can feel sorrow for their sins before they are saved, they can also do many other things that Jesus says to do before they are saved.
However, we do not have to wait though until we are sinless before Jesus saves us.

 

[Winman]

This is very nice, Winman.
I am getting ready though, for the different belief that is going to have us disagreeing. I hope that I have found another person with whom I am like-minded.

People are to believe and confess. People can feel sorrow for their sins before they are saved, they can also do many other things that Jesus says to do before they are saved.
However, we do not have to wait though until we are sinless before Jesus saves us.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

All I am saying is that Romans 8:9 is very clear that no man is a spiritual man until he has the indwelling Spirit. Until he has the indwelling Spirit he is still a natural man, he is still in the flesh.

But all scripture shows a man receives the indwelling Spirit after first believing.

The disciples all believed (except Judas) on Jesus after his first miracle.

Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

We see here the disciples believed on Jesus, it is very plain. But they did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until 3 years later after Jesus rose from the dead and breathed on them.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

A man does not have to be regenerated to believe, the disciples believed for at least 3 years before they received the indwelling Holy Ghost. They were natural men, they were in the flesh, yet they believed.

 

[Moriah]

I have no idea what you are saying here.

All I am saying is that Romans 8:9 is very clear that no man is a spiritual man until he has the indwelling Spirit. Until he has the indwelling Spirit he is still a natural man, he is still in the flesh.

But all scripture shows a man receives the indwelling Spirit after first believing.

The disciples all believed (except Judas) on Jesus after his first miracle.

Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

We see here the disciples believed on Jesus, it is very plain. But they did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until 3 years later after Jesus rose from the dead and breathed on them.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

A man does not have to be regenerated to believe, the disciples believed for at least 3 years before they received the indwelling Holy Ghost. They were natural men, they were in the flesh, yet they believed.

I will explain more.

Okay, you believe that the 11 of Jesus’ disciples could believe in Jesus before they had the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe those 11 could also obey Jesus?

Please answer that question before I go on.

 

[percho]

The KJV translators knew Greek a little better than you do. The tense of the participle reveals its action in relationship to the primary verb "born". If the participle had been a completed action it would demand that action of the participle preceded the action of the verb. If the action of the participle was future completed action it would demand that the action of the participle followed the action of the verb. If the action of the participle was continuous or incomplete action it would demand the action of the participle is concurrent with the action of the verb. So the KJV correctly translated it "IS born" denoting concurrent action.





You fail to see that "quickened" is characterized by the phrase "by grace are ye SAVED" in verse 5 and so the very same statement repeated merely confirms that "saved" in verse 8 does refer to the act of quickening by God in verses 1 and 5 which is the CREATIVE work of God in verse 10.

The perfect tense paraphrastic construction in verse 8 point to such a completed action in the past that continues as a completed action and that is the act of quickening and that completed action occurs in connection with "faith" or "through" faith. Hence faith is attached to that completed action in the past which stands complete up to the present. Since that completed action was obtained "THROUGH FAITH" so also does that faith continue up to the present time. It is this whole phrase "for by grace are ye saved through faith" that is NOT OF YOURSELVES because faith is a gift of God (see John 6:64-65) as much as the quickening is a gift of God. Together they are His workmanship created "IN CHRIST JESUS"



Only if you think that spiritual death is not SEPARATION from God? Do you? Ephesians 4:18 demands that alienation from THE LIFE OF GOD is due to ignorance which the EMPOWERED gospel revelation reverses (2 Cor. 4:6) as the empowerd gospel is God the Holy Spirit writing that revelation upon the heart producing a new heart (2 Cor. 3:3-6) which is the promise of the New Covenant according to Ezek. 36:26!



You need to read it more carefully. Paul is likening the revelation of the gospel to the inward man to that of God in Genesis 1:3 calling light out of darkness. That is the effectual call when the gospel comes not in word only but in POWER and IN THE SPIRIT (1 Thes. 1:5).



You need to understand the mechanics of the effectual call. The effectual call is through the gospel (2 Thes. 2:13b-14). The gospel comes in word only to the non-elect but to the elect it comes IN POWER and IN THE SPIRIT so that it cleanses the human spirit from sin (Tit. 3:5) and restores the image of God (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) creating a "new" inward man in true holiness and righteousness after the image of God. Faith is inseparable from the empowered Gospel becuase "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the RHEMA of God - the command of God. The gospel is the object of faith but when empowered it is also the source of gospel faith so that therein is the righteousness of God REVEALED "from (ek) of faith to (eis) faith! The empowered Gospel revelation produces faith (ek) but also provides the object of faith (eis) = Rom. 1:17.

I know no Greek, therefore I ask; 1 John 5:1
From the Greek standpoint, would it be fair to say when one is begotten of God, one is then believing or shall we say translated from unbelief unto belief and he then is able to love him who beget and is also able to love one another begotten of God.

Back to baptism, and figures and types.

Is not water baptism a figure of death and re-birth?

Did not even the water baptism of Jesus show what was to take place about three and a half years down the road. Death and resurrection. See my post 14. Was not Jesus the Christ the Son of God the Son of man by death and resurrection the type of what we shall be when we have followed him drinking the cup and being baptized with the baptism of which he was baptized with?

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Thoughts or corrections.

Thanks

 

[kyredneck]

I think I really wanted to know is how are we to understand those who were baptized unto Moses. What does that mean.

The word means 'to dunk'. It is often used in the sense of being brought totally under the control, or influenced greatly, of something.

If you fall from a ladder you've been 'baptized' by [brought under total control and the influence of] gravity.

It was the destiny of the Israelites to be baptized unto Moses [brought under the influence and control of the Mosaic Covenant] .

"Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of [bringing them under the influence of] the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Unto what then were ye Baptized?

"II. BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES (1 Corinthians 10:12)
This bit of history of the Hebrews and of the Exodus gives us a clue as to the meaning of what it means to be baptized "unto" someone or some thing. The Hebrews had been living and working "unto" their Egyptian taskmasters. They labored at making bricks with a view to pleasing these masters and thus doing the bidding of Pharaoh. The Red Sea put a difference in their view of the One to be heeded. It had separated, or marked the death of, themselves to Egypt, and the Egyptians to them. Now they had a new leader, Moses. Their being baptized "unto Moses," then meant that no longer were they to heed the voices of the masters in Egypt, but the voice of a new Master (God) whose spokesman was Moses.

III. BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST (Romans 6:3)
We are taught that we are baptized into (same word: "unto") Jesus Christ. It is not a matter of location or place, so that baptism puts us literally into Christ. This is no more true than that "baptized unto Moses" put the Hebrews into Moses. It means that baptism (like the Red Sea crossing) drew a line between former masters and the the present leader or master. Baptism declares that we have died to the world. Being dead to it we cannot heed the voice of its god (Satan) or its leaders (taskmasters). We have a new Master (Christ), and are baptized "unto" Him. With a view to heeding Him and no other, we declare (show) our death to the world and our resurrection (new life) unto God. He is our new Master, and we heed the voice of Him Who is our Head, Christ."

 

[Yeshua1]

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Until a man has the indwelling Holy Spirit, he is a natural man, he is still in the flesh. No man is a spiritual man, a regenerate man until he has the indwelling Holy Spirit.

All scripture tells us a person receives the indwelling Holy Spirit AFTER first believing.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The scriptures do not say a person is regenerated to have faith at the same moment, the scriptures say AFTER a person believes they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Spirit after first hearing and believing the gospel.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter's statement here is plain and unmistakeable, a person must first repent and believe on Jesus for the remission of their sins, and afterward they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 shows that no man is "spiritual" until he has the indwelling Holy Spirit. Until a man receives the Spirit he is a natural man, he is still "in the flesh". But all scripture shows a man receives the indwelling Holy Spirit after they believe. Therefore, scripture proves the natural man has the ability to believe, and if he does he will receive the Spirit and become a "spiritual" person.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Thousands of Jews believed on Jesus Christ before he was crucified, but none of them had the indwelling Holy Spirit. These were all natural men, they were in the flesh, yet they believed on Jesus. After Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified, afterward they received the Spirit.

have to go a furhter step back, as those who would believe in jesus, being saved, were those God forknow and elected out beforehand!

 

[Yeshua1]

I will explain more.

Okay, you believe that the 11 of Jesus’ disciples could believe in Jesus before they had the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe those 11 could also obey Jesus?

Please answer that question before I go on.

have to ask Peter, as he really disobeyed him, and did that while saved by him!