How do Calvinists interpret John 3:16

[Amy.G]

John, you did not answer my question.
Why did Jesus say "for God so loved the world" if He really meant "the elect"?

You agree that He knew the difference. So, why didn't He say "elect"?

1 John 2:2 (again)

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our (who is "our"?, the elect, right?)sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Here in the same sentence we have "OUR", meaning the elect. And we have "the world", meaning the world. It seems Jesus is the propitiation for the elect AND the world.

PROPITIATION TO ATONE, HAVE MERCY ON, TO MAKE ATONEMENT FOR

1 John 2:2 (paraphrased)
And He Himself is the ATONEMENT for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the WHOLE WORLD!

The difference in the elect and the world is faith.

We are saved by faith through Christ

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

[johnp.]

We are saved by faith through Christ

We are saved by grace Amy.G. Eph 2:8.

john. edit: [/b] to [/quote].

 

[Amy.G]

John, please reply to my "whole" post.

How do you explain 1 John 2:2?

 

[npetreley]

We are saved by faith through Christ[/b]

We are saved by grace Amy.G. Eph 2:8.

john.

I agree. FWIW, the literal interpretation, which doesn't work well in English, is "You are having been saved by grace through faith, and this [the fact of you are having been saved by grace through faith] is the gift of God...etc."

 

[Blammo]

That's a great post Blammo. One of the best I've seen. Bet you're not using 'propitiation' properly. What's 'propitiation' mean?

Is it, "Praise the Lord for every man that ever lived is saved." ? Every man has had the wrath of God turned away from him.

john.

I'm not 'using' propitiation, just quoting scripture. Do you disagree with the Bible?

The propitiatory sacrifice opens up the 'way' to the Father. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me (Christ). If any man tries to approach another way, they are not covered, their sin remains, and the wrath of God abides on them. By faith in His blood I am reconciled to God.

 

[psalms109:31]

Lean

We are not to lean on our own understanding or other men understading, but trust in the Lord

We have a lot of esua's, willing to give up thier birth-right for another man's stew. Instead of waiting on God and trusting in Him.

We have many just following the croud. When they scripture say's we have to eat of Christ flesh and drink of His blood and depend on Him. They continue to follow the croud even if they walk away.

Until we are drawn by the Father to Jesus and not other mens and thier opinion of the scripture. We will never come to Jesus and trust in only Him. I can see many disagreeing with scripture that has come to us from Jesus and hold onto men's opinions.

The birth-right from God is for all men, because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowlewge of the truth.

Quit fighting God and believe.

God says He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and that we have been predestined before the foundation of the world you can believe both of those scripture they way they say without trying to make one fit into the other by changing it to your own understanding.

God has sent Jesus in the world not to condemn it but to save it and God does love the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish and have eternal life.

Just believe, don''t try to put it in your own understanding but trust in the Lord.

It is pretty obviouse that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, but He has hidden the truth from the wise and the learned.

Scripture is our solid food, the food other men have prepared looks tempting, but don't trade your birth-right for it.

Peter is right men have misunderstood Paul's teaching like they do other scripture to thier own destruction.

 

[Amy.G]

We are saved by faith through Christ[/b]

We are saved by grace Amy.G. Eph 2:8.

john.

Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

You must have faith to be saved. You must believe.

Not of yourselves means, you can't be good enough to be saved. You must rely on, believe in, adhere to the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Christ finished His work. Our only "work" is to believe. God requires this from us. He does not believe for us.

 

[Amy.G]

Psalms 109:31:

Scripture is our solid food, the food other men have prepared looks tempting, but don't trade your birth-right for it.

Amen! :thumbs:

 

[johnp.]

John, please reply to my "whole" post.
How do you explain 1 John 2:2?

Amy. Give me a chance, I am doing so. I take some time over my replies sometimes, I just thought I would point out you serious error first. It is by grace.

Hello Blammo.

I'm not 'using' propitiation, just quoting scripture. Do you disagree with the Bible?

Cool. I do not and well you know it. Do you know what 'propitiation' means?

By faith in His blood I am reconciled to God.

Who's faith. Where did your faith come from and does it include belief? I'm asking that's all. Where did this belief originate, in you or in God?

john.

 

[Allan]

I agree. FWIW, the literal interpretation, which doesn't work well in English, is "You are having been saved by grace through faith, and [this ] [the fact of you are having been saved by grace through faith] is the gift of God...etc."

FWIW - your "literal translation" falls pitifully short of any thing even considered "literal", since you ADD your "perspective" to what you ASSUME the scripture is stating.


What part is your adding of perspective to the scripture passage? - The bolden, the [This] (I did for emphasis), and underlined part .
Your "THIS" (which I bracketed) is more accurately translated "IT" which directly references salvation - determind by THE CONTENT of the passage AND its surrounding verses (CONTEXT).


You either need to re-take your Greek studies or go and take some. :thumbs:

 

[johnp.]

What's that Blammo, we are not saved by grace? Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved...

Cool man, I'll let the translators know they got it wrong and give Blammo the credit for knowing light from dark.

john.

 

[Blammo]

Do you know what 'propitiation' means?

It means an atonement for sin. More specifically a substitute taking the punishment of another to appease the wrath of an authority. Christ took the wrath of God upon himself in our place. The Bible says God hath set (Christ Jesus) forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood. Notice it says "through faith". Faith is the condition, without it, no reconciliation. The propitiation makes reconciliation possible, but does not guarantee it. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Who's faith. Where did your faith come from and does it include belief? I'm asking that's all. Where did this belief originate, in you or in God?

My faith, God given or not, I have faith in the finished work of Christ. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That's how it worked for me, how about yourself? I was not walking around one day while God was believing in himself through me, and then realized I was saved. There came a point, after much preaching at me, that I finally believed and was saved. I did not save myself, God saved me the moment I believed.

 

[Blammo]

What's that Blammo, we are not saved by grace? Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved...

Cool man, I'll let the translators know they got it wrong and give Blammo the credit for knowing light from dark.

john.

How old are you?

Yes, I am saved by grace, through faith. How about yourself? Any faith involved in you being saved?



Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I'm not afraid to say it. Yes, by faith.

 

[johnp.]

So, why didn't He say "elect"?

You are of age ask Him yourself. My guess would be that He wants confusion over His word so those that are approved stand out, which they do. Ask Him, He will tell you. Ask Him if your doctrine is or is not part of the great delusion He has sent. Ask Him if He really is as feeble as free will makes Him out to be.

Here in the same sentence we have "OUR", meaning the elect.

As an apostle to the Jew who was John addressing?

You are avoiding the point. If Christ died for everyone's sins why are they not saved unless you are a universalist. You are not a universalist are you? Please try to answer a question.

1 John 2:2 (paraphrased)
And He Himself is the ATONEMENT for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the WHOLE WORLD!

Same argument applies. If Christ died for every man ever born why do some go to Hell? Because the Blood of Christ is insufficient for purpose? Did His death pay the penalty or not? Yes or no? If it did then why do some go to Hell? What for? If it didn't suffice to declare us not guilty then what worth is in It? If the love God has for me can still see me in Hell what worth is there in that love? I disdain such love, He can keep it.

Then, if Jesus died for everyone why did Jesus die for everyone when He knew beforehand who would be saved and who would not? A merry jest? "I'll die for you even though I knew you would not accept me". Is that it? Why does acceptance become a sin if not taken up? Did Jesus not die for all sins?
Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

he will save his people

he will save his people from their sins He will, I have no doubt, I am certain of this and that I am His. There is no maybe with God. God's love never fails. What has Hell to do with love Amy? Please tell me, please do tell me please or your argument has gone west.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

1 Cor 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect.

Christ finished His work. Our only "work" is to believe. God requires this from us. He does not believe for us.

A works salvation is death. PR 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
If not for you your Father would not meet you? What a strange world you inhabit. Of course in the Twilight Zone the child can choose the Father, or deny Him. In this fantasy world a blind man can cause himself to see and the dead can rise themselves up from death. The slave can choose his own master and those at war can love their enemy, and The Lord God Almighty pleads with tears and groans for those He loves and intends to cause the most horrific punishment possible to imagine, and we cannot imagine the truth of it, and this is your kind of love Amy? I'm glad you're far from me.

john.

 

[johnp.]

I am 57 going on 17 Blammo. I've hung up my soccer boots in distress and I am over the moon that I have been blessed to see and embrace my first grandchild.

Yes, I am saved by grace, through faith.

I know, it is the chooser of that that is in question. Are you sovereign over your own destiny or is God?

How about yourself? Any faith involved in you being saved?

None, I was an atheistic hippy come biker. I prayed to Jesus to get a Pastor off my back. I spoke the Pastor's words into the air and found myself talking to Jesus. Sorry. He was truly found by one not seeking Him. From a family that sought not as far back as memory goes. I am the first Christian in my family as far as I know.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I have more than enough to share, want some? HEB 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

I have been commended.

I'm not afraid to say it. Yes, by faith.

1 Cor 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

Repent of your sin.

john.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I have been member of Baptistboard for 5 years. I have been reading Calvinism vs. Arminian Threads. It have been debate, debate, debate, it is endless till Christ comes. We have realized these are part of Soteriology(salvation) doctrine. This is the hottest debate than any issues ever we faced today. I haven't make a post on this topic. Today, I just want to curious reading their posts. One post, which I have strongly disagree with: at post #35 pp. 4 - reformedbeliever said: 'we are born again first, then we believe'. Nonsense. I disagree with his comment.

In John 3:3, Christ said, "Execept a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Again, in John 3:5, he said, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Again in John3:7, he continued, "...ye MUST be born again."

My understanding what Christ means, he tells us, we MUST be repent, or cannot have eternal life.

The Bible teaches us,

1. First, we hear the gospel
2. Realize that I have sinned, am on the way to hell
3. Understand that Christ died for me, believe what He has done for me
4. Ask Christ for telling him, sorry for doing wrong things.
5. become child of God.

John 3:16 is the most famous and popular verse among religions. Common for many Christians claim, this verse is their favorite verse. I know John 3:16 for so many years since I was child.

My understanding of Calvinists saying, 'world' means elects. I disagree with them.

Romans 5:8 tells us, God show his love toward us that Christ died for us while we were sinners.

1 John 2:2 tells us, Christ is the atonement for OUR(elect) sins, and not not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD." It means, Christ died for not just elects only, also the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD!

In 1 Peter 3:9 tells us, God doesn't want all people go perished, but want all people come to repentance. God's will for everyone to repent and have eternal life. That is His love.

Sadly, most people refused, and want in their own ways, reject God's love offering, are on the way to hell - Matt. 7:13-14.

Do not blame God, that most are in the hell, because they already made their choice and decisions, and do not believe in Christ.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith

Our faith comes from God through His word, but we can walk away from it, just like the young rich ruler did.

Many our trusting in what they have and think they are rich and not willing to give it up for God. The word of God which brings us to Jesus is what we trust in. Faith comes from God through His word, don't walk away it is a free gift. Any gift free or not, you have to accept it to receive it.

Those of us who put our trust in the Lord, God promisses we will not be disappointed.

 

[Amy.G]

Quote:
1 John 2:2 (paraphrased)
And He Himself is the ATONEMENT for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the WHOLE WORLD!

johnp:

Same argument applies. If Christ died for every man ever born why do some go to Hell? Because the Blood of Christ is insufficient for purpose? Did His death pay the penalty or not? Yes or no? If it did then why do some go to Hell? What for? If it didn't suffice to declare us not guilty then what worth is in It? If the love God has for me can still see me in Hell what worth is there in that love? I disdain such love, He can keep it.

Here lies your whole problem John. You do not believe the very word of God. There it is right in front of your face and you argue with it and say it's wrong.

There is no other way to read this verse: And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but also for the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

You can argue all you want, but there it is. Deny it and you deny the word of God.

 

[npetreley]

There is no other way to read this verse: And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but also for the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

You can argue all you want, but there it is. Deny it and you deny the word of God.

No, deny it means what you want it to mean, and you harmonize it with all other scripture. Claim it means what you want it to mean, and you contradict other scripture. Clearly, "the whole world" means "not limited to you (my audience for the letter) and me, but including people from everywhere in the world". It can't mean "every person living on the earth at this moment" or even the way most people want to read it, "every person who ever lived, lives or will live". If that's what it meant, and if every occurrance of "all" meant the same thing, scripture would contradict itself. There are plenty of references to "many", not "all" in the same contexts.

If you have any doubt, look at those places where God clearly means all (or none). For example:

There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

When God wants it to be clear that all means all, and none means none without exception, He is perfectly capable of communicating that. If God means "the whole world" has to be every human without exception, I think He would have made that just as crystal clear as my quote above.

 

[johnp.]

Amy. Just suppose that I go along with you and say Jesus did actually die for everyman ever born, ok? What now? Everyman ever born must be saved, is this right? If not why not?

john.