The local church has both saved and the lost attending, and the Law still gives to us the Moral obligations that we have now under the new Covenant.
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How Do the Moral Commands of the Law and Those in the NT Mesh for Christians?
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
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I can agree with this half of your post. Christ came to Consummate the Law. As such the Law of Christ would be a perfected Law compared to the unperfected Law of Moses.
This radical statement seems accurate, because of the definition of "fulfill" in the Greek.
Evidence for this would be divorce, which is more permissive in the Law of Moses. This is because the perfectly holy standard was not yet enforced due to hardness of hearts in ancient Israel. My thinking is that the Law of Christ is a full revelation of what sin is, as well as what the perfectly holy standard is, that was forthrightly given to Israel. It is a Law that explains in exhaustive detail the nature of sin, and gives the perfectly holy standard we are expected to live by.
That said, it builds upon the Law of Moses, and not one jot or tittle dropped from the Torah and Prophets.
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Thank you Martin. It feels like I am now adjusting my beliefs to all pertinent bible verses, as I discover how a Christian properly relates to Law given Grace and Life by the Spirit. That is a huge leap forward from last week.
It would be helpful, 1689Dave, if you knew the confession which you wrongly claim to support. The churches that signed up to the 1689 were not 'institutional' churches; they were gathered churches, the membership of which was limited to professing, baptized believers.there are three purposes for God's moral law today:
1. To limit wickedness in all people. To the best of my knowledge there has been no civilization that has not worshipped a god of some sort, had some form of marriage, and laws against theft and murder. In this, all men show the work of the law upon their hearts(Romans 2:14-15), albeit marred and distorted by the Fall.
2. To be a tutor or schoolmaster to bring unsaved people to Christ as they despair of keeping the law in their own strength (Galatians 3:24-25).
3. To be a rule of life for those who are saved by grace through faith (Psalm 119:105; 1 Corinthians 9:21).
Correct, though that may not be the case in any given congregation (Jude 4).
[QUOTE} These have the Two Great Commandments activated in their hearts through the New Birth.[/QUOTE]
Not so. The same Moral Law that was given to Israel on tablets of stone is now written on the hearts of believers (Jeremiah 31:31-34; 2 Corinthians 3:3). Believers show the first part of the Royal Law on their hearts as they abandon all other gods but Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6), as they leave their idols behind (1 Thessalonians 1:9), as they cease to use their Lord's name in vain (2 Corinthians 5:16), and as they set aside one day for the Lord (Mark 2:28; Luke 4:16; Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:1-2). They show the second part on their hearts as the honour their parents (Ephesians 6:1-4), love their enemies (Romans 12:19), abstain from sexual immorality (1 Thessalonians 4:3), do not steal (Ephesians 4:28) or lie (Ephesians 4:25), and do not covet other people's possessions (1 Timothy 6:6-8).
The Decalogue is not meant to be a complete exposition of the law; it is a summary. More detailed instructions are found elsewhere (e.g. stealing by finding in Exodus 23:4).
My Bible has ten commandments.
It is my desire to keep them all.These are fulfilled in Christ.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I'm speaking of infant baptism stocking institutional churches to the gills with unbelievers. If you walk in the Spirit according to the Two Great Commandments, you do not need to be told not to murder or steal.,
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The body of Christ IS the Church. It has only believers therin. If you walk in the Spirit, you do not need to be told not to murder or steal.....
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Where would you like to start? The church is the body of Christ and it is not made up of unbelievers? The Ten Commandments hung from the Two Great Commandments? Which means the Two preceded them? The Two are written in the hearts of all from birth and condemn everyone? The new birth activates the Two and they form the backbone of Christian ethics? Christ abolished the Old Covenant (Ten Commandments) on the cross? Or anything else besides this?
So why do you think the 100+ churches who signed up to the 1689 Confession back then disagree with you?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
They were under a Reformed influence. And made some Baptist friendly improvements to the Westminster. But the truth is the Church is Christ's body, and no unbelievers can be part of it. “Now the church is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.” (Ephesians 1:23)
So in your church, there are no unbelievers whatsoever. Is that right?
Are you aware of the 1689 Confession XXVI:3?
The purest churches under heaven are subject to mixture and error [1 Cor. 5; Rev. 2 & 3], and some have degenerated so much that they have ceased to be churches of Christ and have become synagogues of Satan [Rev. 18:2; 2 Thes. 2:11-12], Nevertheless Christ has always had, and always will have a kingdom in this world, made up of those who believe in Him and make profession of His name [Matt. 16:18; Psa. 72:17; Psa. 102:28; Rev. 12:17].
What this is saying is that although there may be a universal Church which comprises all the elect, yet down here in real, living congregations all over the world, there are unbelievers, false teachers and even saved folk who are in deep error. I referenced Jude 4 to you in my last post, but I think you cannot have read it. May I ask that you do so, and also 2 Corinthians 11:1-4; 12-15?
I will now turn my attention to your post #27.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
How can any unbeliever be part of Christ's body? If the guy next to you in the pew is not born again, he is not part of the body or church. You and he might think he is, but only believers are united to Christ.
You affirm the 1689 Baptist Confession, as do I, and yet that Confessions states there are 10 Commandments to us to observe, not just the 2 , correct?
God stills wants us to keep His moral law, but now we do that by the enabling of the Holy Spirit, not our weak flesh as under the Old Covenant.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Remember, the two great commandments preceded the Ten, because the ten hung from them. And the Old Covenant was the Ten Commandments which Christ replaced with the New Covenant. The Two Great Commandments form the heart of New Covenant ethics motivated by love. But we use the 10 for commentary purposes. This is why people generally use Sunday for a rest day and not Saturday.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
In what way?
No more obligations to being under the Moral law of God, as revealed to us in the 10 Commandments.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If you tell someone not to do bad things, and they obey, it does not make them good. But if you make them good, giving them a new heart of love, they won't want to do bad things because it robs them of their joy. This is the difference in the two sets of Laws. That is to say, the Pharisees under the Ten Commandments thought they were good because they didn't allow themselves to do certain bad things even though they wanted to. But believers in Christ do not want to do bad things because they have a new nature that finds sin repulsive and a threat to their joy. These live in harmony with the Two Great Commandments.
We are to obey the Commandments not to get in better favor with God, to be saved, to keep saved, but in order to enjoy the best that he has planned for us!
I think you missed the point of his post. He is saying that the Holy Spirit indwelling someone is the reason people have fruit, while affirming that faith gives us salvation and the Holy Spirit. He is saying that the Spirit at work in us means we have annulled the Law because we are new creations doing the right thing, something that does sound fishy to me. It is classic New Covenant Theology.
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