He is teaching NCT, but is still wanting us to buy that he is holding to Reformed views.
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How Do the Moral Commands of the Law and Those in the NT Mesh for Christians?
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
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At first glance, I agree with you, but he may just be a really weird Reformed theologian.
Are you really saying that there is no Baptist church that does not have unbelievers and/or false teachers in it? Surely not! And this is a major point. In heaven, where everyone is a believer made perfect, love will be all we need, but here on earth where there are unbelievers and badly-taught believers in the churches whether you like it or not, your teaching is disastrous. I have seen people make absolute shipwreck of their lives because they don't believe the Ten Commandments apply to them so long as they love God. But to break one of the commandments is to sin directly against God (e.g. Genesis 39:9).
No.
And no. When the scribe asked, "which is the first commandment of all?" (Mark 12:28), he did not mean, which is first in order of time? He meant which is the foremost, or most important (NIV) commandment. All of God's word has existed from eternity (Psalm 119:89), although in point of delivery, the Decalogue (Exodus 20) precedes the 'Royal law' (Deut. 6:4; Lev. 19:18). So the 'Ten' cannot hang from the 'Two.'
The reason that the whole of the 'Law and the Prophets' (i.e. the whole O.T.) depend or hang on the Royal law is because the whole of God's word is based upon love, including, of course, the Decalogue. The scribe wanted the Lord Jesus to say that one commandment is more important than another, but Jesus pointed to the Royal Law because it is a summary of the whole Decalogue. We cannot pick and choose which laws we obey. 'For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble at one point, he is guilty of all' (James 2:10-11). We are shut up to Christ for salvation.
No. It is the whole Moral law that is written on the hearts of all men. Romans 2:14-15 is your text. Unsaved people never love God with heart, soul mind etc., but they do sometimes keep some of the Commandments some of the time, which does not save them (c.f. James 2:10-11 again).
No. the regenerate person longs to obey all of God's righteous laws (Psalm 119 passim).
The Decalogue predates the Mosaic Covenant as I have shown previously. The Old Covenant ceremonial laws which pointed to Christ became obsolete at the cross, but God did not change His mind about righteousness.
That's enough to be going on with.
I think that when my research is done for this thread, I will ask what to do about what seems like a crisis of unbelievers in the church. Barna did a poll in 2001 and found 41% of people who are regular attenders to church do not believe Jesus is Lord and Savior.
The Year's Most Intriguing Findings, From Barna Research Studies - Barna Group
That seems before you take into account "casual Christians," whose statistically proven lack of devotion to Jesus condemns them using more fundamentalist theology than the ecumenical Barna.
https://www.amazon.com/Seven-Faith-Tribes-Believe-Matter/dp/1414324049
Even then, someone on this board pointed out that if you use tests of minimum orthodoxy, and I'll add, orthopraxis, there may be many like me even among those people. I was "Moderate Evangelical" but attended a conservative SBC church. I seemed "together" and "promising" when my schizophrenia was treated, but I lacked personal holiness. I was saved two years ago, and afterwards in my heart, I knew that I had to change for the rest of my life, and by the Spirit I have.
Based on Ephesians 6:1-3, it shows that the Spirit through Paul makes appeals to the Law. The Law is not gone for the Believer. Instead the perfected Law of Christ is the consummation of the Law of Moses. We are to obey the Law but we are not supervised, as if by a chaperone for a child in the Greek, by the Law but instead by the Spirit.
The warning is against what I did for months and months, which is legalism. I compared myself to the Law daily and tried to do better and repent when I erred. The Law was my caretaker and not the Spirit, I was not free and at peace. However, now that the Spirit lives inside me, the Law is not written in a book to convict me, so much as on my heart to be lived out. I am free of the Law in the sense that it is not in charge of me, but instead I live by the Spirit. I am obedient to live by the Law but it is Christ who lives through me by His Spirit and not the Law that chaperones me.
That said, appeals to wariness of sinning and making every effort in devotion to God to do good works are common in the NT. Yet, I am not chaperoned by the Law but by the Spirit, whose fruit makes me a fulfill-er of the Law. I continue to work out my salvation as I said before, by devotedly doing good works in veneration, reverence, and awe of God Our Father. All of this is only possible now that my heart has changed. This last part is amazing to realize.
Not long after salvation 2 years ago, I wrote this:
I am faced with two research opportunities:
1. Understanding the spiritual solid food (Hebrews 5:12-Hebrews 6:3) of discerning right and wrong and applying myself to the teaching of righteousness.
2. Understanding the basics more by continuing to do an inductive study of the whole NT.
I must do #2 for now, because spiritual milk is still nourishing me so much, but I must look towards doing #1 when I am able to.
The warning is against what I did for months and months, which is legalism. I compared myself to the Law daily and tried to do better and repent when I erred. The Law was my caretaker and not the Spirit, I was not free and at peace. However, now that the Spirit lives inside me, the Law is not written in a book to convict me, so much as on my heart to be lived out. I am free of the Law in the sense that it is not in charge of me, but instead I live by the Spirit. I am obedient to live by the Law but it is Christ who lives through me by His Spirit and not the Law that chaperones me.
That said, appeals to wariness of sinning and making every effort in devotion to God to do good works are common in the NT. Yet, I am not chaperoned by the Law but by the Spirit, whose fruit makes me a fulfill-er of the Law. I continue to work out my salvation as I said before, by devotedly doing good works in veneration, reverence, and awe of God Our Father. All of this is only possible now that my heart has changed. This last part is amazing to realize.
Not long after salvation 2 years ago, I wrote this:
Shockingly, the following days showed my internal world to be changed: Many sins I wrestled with hardly bothered me at all anymore, my mind became sober at last instead of being deranged and scheming, as it had always been since high school, I no longer felt great darkness in me all the time, I wanted to earnestly live a holy life and separate myself from Hollywood culture, I became much better at fighting my temptations, I lost most of the embarrassment I felt when sharing Jesus to others, I found it possible to follow the commands of the bible that I had found impossible to live up to, and my mental health disorders also improved. I truly believe that this experience was my salvation experience. I was now ready to accept the Gospel message and live it out for real.
What counts is a new creation, for if the Law is our chaperone it condemns us, but if by the Cross of Jesus Christ the Spirit is our chaperone, He gives us freedom to be obedient to that very same Law.
I am faced with two research opportunities:
1. Understanding the spiritual solid food (Hebrews 5:12-Hebrews 6:3) of discerning right and wrong and applying myself to the teaching of righteousness.
2. Understanding the basics more by continuing to do an inductive study of the whole NT.
I must do #2 for now, because spiritual milk is still nourishing me so much, but I must look towards doing #1 when I am able to.
One more thing is that I have the Spirit and because of this I should celebrate, and acknowledge I am a baby of our Father in heaven. When I kept comparing myself to the Law that joy was stripped of me, but now I know what I am, a child of God. As amazing as that is. I now at last understand what grace is at all times.
I know God abrogates the dietary Laws with new decrees, and it seems all uncleanness Laws are taken away by the Cross since Christ became a curse for us (Galatians 3:13-15). Does anyone have more bible verses or theology on these points?
I know God abrogates the dietary Laws with new decrees, and it seems all uncleanness Laws are taken away by the Cross since Christ became a curse for us (Galatians 3:13-15). Does anyone have more bible verses or theology on these points?
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
As I said, what we call churches are packed to the gills with unbelievers. Especially paedobaptist churches. But the church is not an institution or divided up into man made denominations.
“Now the church is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.” (Ephesians 1:23)
pertaining to the question: "The Ten Commandments hung from the Two Great Commandments?"
Scripture proves you wrong. Jesus said: “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:37–40)
You cannot hang your jacket on a hook that isn't already there.
False, the decalogue HUNG from the Two Great Commandments.
“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:37–40)
As I said, You cannot hang your jacket on a hook that isn't already there.
Paul says the Law (Two Great Commandments) condemns them for not loving God and neighbor. This from the time of creation as proven by Cain's murder of Abel.
Who said they do not? But, we keep the Ten Commandments (except the Sabbath) when we keep the Two Great Commandments. But you can never keep the Two Great Commandments by keeping the Ten. The were aimed at wicked unbelievers who obeyed under threat of death. Not because they wanted to.
False: ““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
But if God needs to tell you not to murder or steal, are you born again? Born again people flee from sin because of the threat is poses to maintaining the fruit of the Spirit...which is the quality of life.
Some here would see all of us reformed that way!
He claims to hold with the same 1689 Baptist Confession that both of us do, but he seems to be reading from a newly updated edition!
David delighted himself in reading and obeying the law of the lord, and paul states that it is perfect, but the big problem was that under the Old Covenant God had to deal with sinful and weak flesh, but now under the new Covenant are made new and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who will enabling us to be able to obey the Lord as we should now.
David himself delighted in reading the law and obeying it, was he unsaved?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I do not teach Reformed or NCT views. I use the reformed where they sync with scripture and dismiss the rest. Long after I held my present views, I heard about NCT and gave it a glimpse. But as I remember it had a few bugs I didn't care for. Pickup your bible, what I'm saying about the Law is all there.
God law is perfect, right/ Why woudl the saved not want to obey Him?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
And so do we. But David was under it, we are not. We are under the New Covenant that replaced the Ten Commandments.
““Indeed, a time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the Lord.” (Jeremiah 31:31–32)
““The law and the prophets were in force until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is urged to enter it.” (Luke 16:16)
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If you are born again, love motivates your works and you keep 9 of the Ten Commandments found in the NT without trying. Sabbath omitted.
You would still be obeying the law of the lord, and we do keep Holy a day unto the Lord still, just for most of us its now Sunday!
So we no longer delight ourselves in Scriptures as David did?
So none of the people in the church at Ephesus were born again?
'Therefore put away lying......' Ephesians 4:25.
'"Be angry and do not sin." Do not let the sun go down on your wrath.' Ephesians 4:26; c.f. Matthew 5:21-22.
'Let him who stole steal no longer.......' Ephesians 4:28.
'Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth.' Ephesians 4:29; c.f. Exodus 20:7.
'But fornication and all other uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you......' Ephesians 5:3.
'Children, obey your parents, for this is right. "Honour your father and mother"......' Ephesians 6:1-2.
'Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.' Ephesians 4:6-7.
In any given church there may be many who are not born again, but saved people need to hear these things also, otherwise they may make shipwreck of their lives. 'Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and teaching' (2 Timothy 4:2).Timothy was in the church at Ephesus (1 Timothy 1:3).
There are several people on this board who deny that there is a universal Church, but you are the first person I've met who denies the existence of the local church! Your teaching may de well enough in heaven, among 'just men made perfect' but in the real world, among churches made up of flesh-and-blood people, it is utterly, utterly disastrous.
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The Law is beautiful and to be pondered, but we are under Grace through Christ and have the Spirit. The Law is no longer our supervisor, the Greek seems to be chaperone for a child. The Spirit is our supervisor, and in this viewpoint we launch ourselves into devotedly fulfilling the expanded Law of Christ. The Law of Christ not being a replacement, but a perfection of what Moses gave. The Law and Prophets still stand, and we should be obedient to not sin. Sin being defined by the Law.
That said, God has fulfilled the Laws of uncleanness with the Cross. Also we do not restrict our diet anymore by God's decree, and IMO we are no longer bound by the four laws of Acts 15 to Antioch.
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