How Do We Define "Limited Atonement" per the Bible?

[Winman]

You guys can hug each other and wear matching clothes, doesn't make you correct.

Jesus said he would lay down his life for the sheep. This does not necessarily mean he was saying he was going to lay down his life for the sheep ONLY. You can't simply ASSUME that is what Jesus meant, you must compare this statement with all other scriptures pertaining to the same subject. When you do this you find there are many verses that say Jesus died for all men, that he died for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn 2:2). And we know John was speaking of 100% of mankind in 1 Jn 2:2, because in 1 Jn 5:19 he says the "whole world" lies in wickedness, and in Rev 12:9 John says that Satan deceives the "whole world". So we know for a fact John was not speaking of the elect only when he said "whole world".

There are many other verses that show Jesus died for all men, but Calvinists must wrest scripture to explain them away.

Knowing this, we know when Jesus said he would lay down his life for the sheep, that he was not saying he would die for the elect ONLY.

That is how you properly interpret scripture, by comparing scripture to scripture.

 

[Herald]

Once again, Calvinists of old (16th/17th century) didn't exactly use the terms 'limited' and 'universal' in regard to the atonement in a way represented by modern Calvinists...(nor did their opponents of that time).

Here is a quote from the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, who were certainly "Calvinists of old":

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling

Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Canticles 1:4 )

These 17th Century Calvinists understood that there were "those whom God hath predestinated unto life." The atonement secured their salvation and their salvation alone. This is the view of the atonement that Spurgeon articulated; it is also the majority view among Calvinists. Are there purported Calvinists who hold a different view on the atonement? Yes. Are they the majority view? No.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Perhaps he had a lapse of memory ......Most Reform Baptists do subscribe to 1689 and/or 1644. Now if he was referring to our Presbyterian brethren, its the Westminster Confessions & almost identical (except for that Pedobaptist nonsense they adhere to) but I think you get my point.

 

[Herald]

Jesus said he would lay down his life for the sheep. This does not necessarily mean he was saying he was going to lay down his life for the sheep ONLY.

Jesus begins John 10 by saying:

John 10:11-15 11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 "He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 "He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

The definite article appears in the Greek, the sheep. Usually this means a specific thing or group. We have to look further down in the chapter to understand who this thing or group is.

John 10:26-29 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

The sheep spoken about in verses 11-15 are actually sheep of a specific group; they are "My sheep." These sheep are sheep that belong to Jesus Christ. He laid down His life for these sheep and these sheep only. We do not read that He laid down His life for anyone except His sheep.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman.
You said this;

Jesus said he would lay down his life for the sheep. This does not necessarily mean he was saying he was going to lay down his life for the sheep ONLY. You can't simply ASSUME that is what Jesus meant, you must compare this statement with all other scriptures pertaining to the same subject.

If you only did what you say to do you might see the biblical solution.
I offered you other scripture speaking to the same subject..which you must ignore because it will show what the truth is......hold on...let me post it for you!

Ezekiel 34

1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

3Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

4The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

5And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

6My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them. 7Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

8As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

9Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

10Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

13And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

14I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

15I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.

16I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

17And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

18Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

19And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

20Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.

21Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;

22Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

23And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

25And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

26And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

27And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

28And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

29And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

30Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD.

31And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.

God identifies His sheep......notice how many times He says, I will search, I will save, I will feed them....The action is God's alone.

Jesus is the good shepherd, He seeks and saves that which is lost....

The object of God's eternal love are the elect sheep. If you understand ezk 34, jn 10, luke 19......you will come to truth.......if not you will persist in error and falsehood.:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is a quote from the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, who were certainly "Calvinists of old":



These 17th Century Calvinists understood that there were "those whom God hath predestinated unto life." The atonement secured their salvation and their salvation alone. This is the view of the atonement that Spurgeon articulated; it is also the majority view among Calvinists. Are there purported Calvinists who hold a different view on the atonement? Yes. Are they the majority view? No.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

The Lord laid down His life for the sheep alone -- not the goats as well.

In John 10:11 it says that "The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." Does that mean :"Well the sheep yes,but everyone else is included too." ? Certainly not. Believe the Word of God.

When Jesus repeats Himself in verse 15 he says "I lay down my life for the sheep." Did He really mean to say --BTW,everyone else is covered too. I laid down my life fore them too." ? Of course not. Do not doubt the Holy Word of God.

In verse 28 Jesus says "I give them [my sheep]eternal life." He is giving only His sheep eternal life --no one else. The goats are not included.

Go to Matthew 25:31-46. It is speaking of the division of the sheep and the goats. Look at verse 32,33:"All the nations will be gathered before him,and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left." Only the ones on His right[the sheep] will enter into glory according to verse 34. The goats on His left enter eternal fire according to verse 41.

Go to Acts 20:28c :"The church of God which he bought with own blood." Does that mean something different like :Oh,I really intended to say He purchased the church of God with His blood,but everyone else too." I think not Winman. Believe the Scriptures.

Go to Ephesians 5:25 and notice what Paul said about the sacrifice of the Lord:"Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." That does not mean :"In my haste I don't want to imply that Christ also gave Himself up for everyone else as well." Absolutely not. Chriswt doed for the Chhurch of God. He died for His Bride --no one else.

You are guilty as charged, for reading into the Bible that which is not there Winman.

Another good solid post......You and P4t and ewf, and herald see the same thing in the bible that millions of other believers have seen:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Here's the 1646 Confession complete with proof-texts:-

GOD hath decreed in Himself, before the world was, concerning all things, whether necessary, accidental or voluntary, with all the circumstances of them, to work, dispose, and bring about all things according to the counsel of His own will, to His glory: (Yet without being the author of sin, or having fellowship with anything therein) in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, unchangeableness, power, and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree: And God hath before the foundation of the world, foreordained some men to eternal life, through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of His grace; and leaving the rest in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His justice.

Isa.46:10; Eph.1:11; Rom.11:33; Ps.115:3, 135:6, 33:15; 1 Sam.10:9.26; Prov.21:6; Exod.21:13; Prov.16:33; Ps.144; Isa.45:7: Jer.14:22; Matt.6:28,30; Col.1:16, 17; Num.23:19.20 Rom.3:4; Jer.10:10; Eph.1:4,5. Jude 4.6; Prov.16:4.

Steve

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,

You guys can hug each other and wear matching clothes, doesn't make you correct.

What makes us correct on this matter is the revealed word of God...not our clothing style, or hugging one another:1_grouphug:

We are just posting and quoting scripture with understanding....every post has had regard to context. This is so clear it is unmistakable......unless......
someone had a previous agenda of anti calvinist jihadism:smilewinkgrin:

Who might that be???

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Winman.
You said this;


If you only did what you say to do you might see the biblical solution.
I offered you other scripture speaking to the same subject..which you must ignore because it will show what the truth is......hold on...let me post it for you!



God identifies His sheep......notice how many times He says, I will search, I will save, I will feed them....The action is God's alone.

Jesus is the good shepherd, He seeks and saves that which is lost....

The object of God's eternal love are the elect sheep. If you understand ezk 34, jn 10, luke 19......you will come to truth.......if not you will persist in error and falsehood.:thumbs:

Touche' Icono....:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Once again Icon, when did I deny Jesus died for his sheep? NEVER! I agree with you 100% that Jesus died for his sheep.

Got that?

Are you sure? Maybe you need to go back and read what I said again.

Now that you've got that (I hope), saying Jesus died for his sheep (which he did) does not mean that Jesus did not also die for the goats.

If I said, "I am going to buy Christmas presents for my kids.", does that mean I am going to buy presents for my kids and no one else? NO!

But your mind is so conditioned to believe Jesus only died for the elect that you are unable to understand what Jesus really said. Jesus NEVER said he died for the elect ONLY.

And we know Jesus did not die for the elect only because much scripture says he died for all men. But because these many verses that say Jesus died for all men totally refute Calvinism and prove it error, you and others must explain this scripture away.

Jn 3:16 says God loved the world and gave his Son Jesus for it. This refutes Calvinism, so you and others wrest scripture and say "world" really means "only the elect".

As even Spurgeon said, God knows how to properly and accurately express himself, if God meant "only the elect", God could have said "only the elect".

Go sell your snake-oil somewhere else, I'm not buying.

 

[psalms109:31]

Galatians 3:
The Law and the Promise
15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 24:7] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Romans 15:
7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews[Greek circumcision] on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed 9 and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written:

“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
I will sing the praises of your name.”[2 Samuel 22:50; Psalm 18:49]

10 Again, it says,

“Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.”[Deut. 32:43]

11 And again,

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles;
let all the peoples extol him.”[Psalm 117:1]

12 And again, Isaiah says,

“The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;
in him the Gentiles will hope.”[Isaiah 11:10 (see Septuagint)]

13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 9:
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[Hosea 2:23]

26 and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[Hosea 1:10]

27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[Isaiah 10:22,23 (see Septuagint)]

29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”[Isaiah 1:9]
Israel’s Unbelief
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


When He was talking about His sheep He was talking about the remnant who is meek and humble who will trust in the Lord.

I am not His sheep, but a dog who begged at His table that He included with His sheep when i heard the Gospel of my salvation having believed. He will include Israel Jew that have gone their own way when they do not continue in their unbelief.

God will never choose me apart from Jesus, He has chosen one Jesus Christ, my only hope is remain in Him, not choose myself and say God has chosen me. Jesus is the only one worthy, not me.

 

[Rippon]

All Cited Scripture Is From 2011 NIV

Now that you've got that (I hope), saying Jesus died for his sheep (which he did) does not mean that Jesus did not also die for the goats.

You're a hoot Winman. You're as stiff-necked as they come.

Why would John quote Jesus as he did? For naught?

In John 10:16 Jesus said:"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice,and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

Jesus does not say anything about goats will be included too in His sheep pen. Why? Because it is the sheep --His sheep -- not goats that are part of His sheep flock.

In verse 26 Jesus says :"but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." In verse 27 He says:"My sheep listen to my voice;I know them,and they follow me." Do the goats listen to His voice? Of course not. Only His sheep. In the following verse Jesus says something unequivocal. "I give them eternal life." Them, specifically them. No one else is given eternal life but the sheep. That's the thrust of his whole message from verses 1-29. How can you miss it --unless you are doing so intentionally?

 

[Robert Snow]

Winman,



What makes us correct on this matter is the revealed word of God...not our clothing style, or hugging one another:1_grouphug:

We are just posting and quoting scripture with understanding....every post has had regard to context. This is so clear it is unmistakable...

Calvinism is as far from a sound understanding of the Word of God as any Kingdom Hall in the country. Proof-texting does not equate to sound doctrine.

You guys think that age equals correctness, which is doesn't. If it weren't for confessions and councils you would have little to say.

The only limit to the atonement is when a person, by their own free will, refuses to accept the gift God offers through the cross of Calvary.

 

[Rippon]

Calvinism is as far from a sound understanding of the Word of God as any Kingdom Hall in the country.

There you go again comparing an heretical group with Calvinists. Can you ever blush with shame?

You guys think that age equals correctness, which is doesn't. If it weren't for confessions and councils you would have little to say.

You have deliberately ignored what we have posted? Have you read my last few posts? How can you say the things you do when facts stand opposed to you at every turn? What Church Councils and Confessions have I cited?

 

[Herald]

Calvinism is as far from a sound understanding of the Word of God as any Kingdom Hall in the country. Proof-texting does not equate to sound doctrine.

You guys think that age equals correctness, which is doesn't. If it weren't for confessions and councils you would have little to say.

Honestly now, you're going to equate the DoG with the Jehovah's Witnesses? Do you really think we hide behind confessions and creeds and not Scripture? You may disagree with our biblical conclusions, but don't lower yourself by throwing out ad hominems that make you look foolish.

 

[Winman]

You're a hoot Winman. You're as stiff-necked as they come.

Why would John quote Jesus as he did? For naught?

In John 10:16 Jesus said:"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice,and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

Jesus does not say anything about goats will be included too in His sheep pen. Why? Because it is the sheep --His sheep -- not goats that are part of His sheep flock.

In verse 26 Jesus says :"but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." In verse 27 He says:"My sheep listen to my voice;I know them,and they follow me." Do the goats listen to His voice? Of course not. Only His sheep. In the following verse Jesus says something unequivocal. "I give them eternal life." Them, specifically them. No one else is given eternal life but the sheep. That's the thrust of his whole message from verses 1-29. How can you miss it --unless you are doing so intentionally?

Your brains are so hardwired by Calvinism that you have lost the ability to reason rationally or think outside the Calvinist "box". No one is denying Jesus died for the sheep.

But Jesus saying he would lay down his life for the sheep is not the same as saying he would lay down his life for the sheep "only". Scripture NEVER says that, in fact scripture repeatedly says Jesus died for ALL MEN.

I lay down my life for the sheep---> SCRIPTURAL

I lay down my life for the sheep only---> UNSCRIPTURAL, never said in scripture

Read that over and over, and perhaps you will eventually see the difference if you take those Calvinist blinders off.

 

[preacher4truth]

Honestly now, you're going to equate the DoG with the Jehovah's Witnesses? Do you really think we hide behind confessions and creeds and not Scripture? You may disagree with our biblical conclusions, but don't lower yourself by throwing out ad hominems that make you look foolish.

He's staying true to himself Herald, as this is status quo for him. He has nothing theological to add, just ad hominem prattle as you've noted. We have given sound answers as rebuttals, yet this is the typical response of some non-cals including snow. It is their only recourse.

I find it interesting what they are allowed to equate us with. Calling someone a "JW" is questioning ones salvation. I believe this is the intent.

 

[Winman]

He's staying true to himself Herald. This is status quo for him. Nothing theologically to add, just ad hominem as you've noted. We have given sound answers as rebuttals, this is the typical response of some non-cals. It is their only recourse.

I've talked to JWs before, they are far easier to get through to than Calvinists.

 

[jbh28]

Your brains are so hardwired by Calvinism that you have lost the ability to reason rationally or think outside the Calvinist "box". No one is denying Jesus died for the sheep.

But Jesus saying he would lay down his life for the sheep is not the same as saying he would lay down his life for the sheep "only". Scripture NEVER says that, in fact scripture repeatedly says Jesus died for ALL MEN.

I lay down my life for the sheep---> SCRIPTURAL

I lay down my life for the sheep only---> UNSCRIPTURAL, never said in scripture

Read that over and over, and perhaps you will eventually see the difference if you take those Calvinist blinders off.

Ok, so you agree that Christ died for the sheep. You say that it's not just the sheep. Please provide Scripture that says that Christ died for the goats.