How Do We Define "Limited Atonement" per the Bible?

[Rippon]

Scripture Citations From 2011 NIV

Your brains are so hardwired by Calvinism that you have lost the ability to reason rationally or think outside the Calvinist "box". No one is denying Jesus died for the sheep.

And I am not denying that you believe Christ died for the sheep. I am saying that Scripture makes it abundantly clear that Christ laid down His life and gives eternal life to the sheep --alone.

It's like you're zoning-out Winman. Where does in Holy Writ that Jesus died for the sheep and the goats? That's right -- in not one single place in the Word of God.

You are denying perfectly clear Scripture. You have reinterpreted John 10 to suit your design. Do you also want to stand Matthew 25:31-46 on its head as well? Did Christ mean to say that the sheep and the goats were at His right hand and that both groups will go to Glory? Stop reinventing the wheel Winman. You need to yield to the authority of the Word of God. Your conduct is not God-honoring.

The goats are not in His flock of sheep. How obvious do I need to be with you? The Lord separates the sheep and the goats. The only ones He gives eternal life to (remember Jn.10:28) are the sheep. He knows them --not the goats. He knows the sheep --He gives them eternal life --they will never perish and the goats whom He has never known "will go away to eternal punishment,but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt.25:46)

 

[jbh28]

Calvinism is as far from a sound understanding of the Word of God as any Kingdom Hall in the country.

Robert, this is uncalled for. Let's not resort to this type of responses by comparing Calvinists to heretics. There is no reason for this type of behavior.

 

[Winman]

Ok, so you agree that Christ died for the sheep. You say that it's not just the sheep. Please provide Scripture that says that Christ died for the goats.

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also the sins of the whole world.

In 1 John, when John speaks of the "world" he is ALWAYS speaking of 100% of mankind and NEVER the elect only.

1 Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

When John speaks of the world here, is he speaking of the elect only? Hardly.

1 Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Here, John again speaks of the "whole world" as he did in 1 Jn 2:2. Does "whole world" refer to the elect (sheep) here? Of course not, and you will not find any scholar that says that.

In Jn 3:16 the scriptures again say God loved "the world" and "gave" his Son Jesus for it. Again, John is speaking of all mankind (which includes the goats).

You know this, and you know Calvinism has to perform mental gymnastics to explain this and many other verses away. You are without excuse.

 

[jbh28]

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also the sins of the whole world.

In 1 John, when John speaks of the "world" he is ALWAYS speaking of 100% of mankind and NEVER the elect only.

Well, it's not interpreted by Calvinist to mean all the elect world but all the world meaning all without distinction. This is an important difference.

1 Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

When John speaks of the world here, is he speaking of the elect only? Hardly.

Totally different use of the term. And it's NOT speaking about "100% of mankind" here.

1 Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Here, John again speaks of the "whole world" as he did in 1 Jn 2:2. Does "whole world" refer to the elect (sheep) here? Of course not, and you will not find any scholar that says that.

Ok, so who does this "whole world" refer to?

In Jn 3:16 the scriptures again say God loved "the world" and "gave" his Son Jesus for it. Again, John is speaking of all mankind (which includes the goats).

[snip]

I'll address John 3:16 later. We'll stick with I John for the time being. I'll wait for your response on my questions here. You said what it was not, but didn't say what it was.

 

[Winman]

Well, it's not interpreted by Calvinist to mean all the elect world but all the world meaning all without distinction. This is an important difference.

Totally different use of the term. And it's NOT speaking about "100% of mankind" here.

Ok, so who does this "whole world" refer to?


I'll address John 3:16 later. We'll stick with I John for the time being. I'll wait for your response on my questions here. You said what it was not, but didn't say what it was.

No, no, no, you have no right to translate "whole world " as you do. Where do you get this, from some brain-washed Reformed "scholar"? John is speaking of unsaved men in 1 John whenever he says "world", he is speaking of the goats.

Believe what you want, but I KNOW you know better. If you want to deceive yourself, that is your right, but it is not very wise.

 

[Rippon]

whenever he says "world", he is speaking of the goats.

Goats do not become sheep. The unelect do not become elect. But some of the unsaved become saved,regenerate individuals.

 

[jbh28]

No, no, no, you have no right to translate "whole world " as you do. Where do you get this, from some brain-washed Reformed "scholar"? John is speaking of unsaved men in 1 John whenever he says "world", he is speaking of the goats.

Believe what you want, but I KNOW you know better. If you want to deceive yourself, that is your right, but it is not very wise.

Just answer my specific questions without the other comments. I have every right to translate the way John meant it. Now, go back and answer my questions. You already contradicted yourself, but I'll let you try again.

 

[Winman]

Goats do not become sheep. The unelect do not become elect. But some of the unsaved become saved,regenerate individuals.

I have to go to bed. When John says "our" in 1 Jn 2:2, he is speaking of the sheep. When he says "whole world" he is speaking of everybody else (the goats). John never calls the sheep the world, neither did Jesus.

Jn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

I'll say to you what I said to JBH, believe what you want.

Goodnight.

 

[jbh28]

I have to go to bed. When John says "our" in 1 Jn 2:2, he is speaking of the sheep. When he says "whole world" he is speaking of everybody else (the goats). John never calls the sheep the world, neither did Jesus.

Jn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

I'll say to you what I said to JBH, believe what you want.

Goodnight.

1) We didn't say that John said that "world" meant elect. So stop using that as your argument.
2) Please give some interpretation as to how you come to the conclusion that "world" always means "100% of mankind. Just saying it doesn't cut it. You are making some big assumptions.

 

[psalms109:31]

Sheep and goats is it not a hyperbole. Men are men they are neither sheep or goats. It has to do with attitude. When people have made their minds up who these are it is a hyper-bole you are not going to change the meaning they have come up with, it is a hyper-bole though. Jesus does hide things through parables, I am pretty sure He will do it in hyper-boles to.

When I see sheep I always end up coming to this verse to me shows who are His sheep and not His sheep. The goats to me by looking at the history of what goats were used for, for sheep, tells me that goats are the one's who lead those who are not His sheep to destruction.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

 

[Robert Snow]

Robert, this is uncalled for. Let's not resort to this type of responses by comparing Calvinists to heretics. There is no reason for this type of behavior.

It's not my fault that these heretics and Calvinists use the same tactic to support their beliefs. I'm talking about proof-texting. There is a difference in comparing groups and comparing methods.

 

[jbh28]

It's not my fault that these heretics and Calvinists use the same tactic to support their beliefs. I'm talking about proof-texting. There is a difference in comparing groups and comparing methods.

Still uncalled for. And everyone proof texts. Calvinists are actually known for good exposition of the Scriptures and not just giving proof texts.

Let's just keep this at a high level and not compare other believers with heretics.

 

[Rippon]

Calvinism is as far from a sound understanding of the Word of God as any Kingdom Hall in the country.

Robert,you have the sinful habit of equating Calvinism with the JW's.

From 11/13/2011 : The JWs could learn a thing or two from them [Calvinists].

From 11/4/2011 : The Mormons and the JWs say the same thing [as the Calvinists].

From 9/29/2011 : When it comes to twisting Scripture,even the JWs would be proud [again,comparing them with Calvinists].

From 3/6/2011 : Again,it's like the JWs. I've argued for months with these people and all we end up doing is going round and round in circles. The same is true of Calvinists.

From 3/5/2011 : The entire concept of Calvinism only works by twisting Scripture like the JWs,and all other cults do.

2/27/2011 : I was saying that just like beliefs that are heretical,like JWs,who read into the Bible to support their false doctrine,Calvinism reads things into Scripture...I was not saying Calvinism is a false doctrine.

 

[convicted1]

For brother jbh28

Hebrews 2:7-9
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Greek word for "for": hyper ὑπέρ

1) in behalf of, for the sake of

2) over, beyond, more than

3) more, beyond, over


Greek phrase used for "every man": pas πᾶς

1) individually

a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2) collectively

a) some of all types

 

[Winman]

Still uncalled for. And everyone proof texts. Calvinists are actually known for good exposition of the Scriptures and not just giving proof texts.

Let's just keep this at a high level and not compare other believers with heretics.

Who said Calvinists are good at exposition of scriptures? Calvinists!

This is exactly what Spurgeon talked about in the quote Psalms109 showed, Calvinists "explode" (Spurgeon's words) the scriptures until they can make them say the opposite of their true intention. I agree with this 100%, Calvinists "wrest" scripture. They twist it, manipulate it, and redefine it to fit their system instead of allowing scripture to very simply and straightforwardly say what it says. This thread is an example, there are MANY verses that say Jesus died for all men, but Calvinists refuse to accept this simple truth because it refutes their doctrine. They are more concerned with preserving their doctrine than knowing the truth. This is how Calvinists are similar to JWs and Mormons. Get mad, but it is true.

You are only hurting (and deceiving) yourselves.

 

[Herald]

To my Calvinist brethren:

It is sad to see such viscous and mean-spirited attacks against us by some , but not all, who reject our understanding of Scripture. These type of attacks are the result of those who not only cannot refute sound biblical exegesis, but also those who possess an angry spirit. My heart grieves when I see people act this way. I am not grieved over those who disagree with the DoG but do so while displaying respect towards their brothers and sisters with whom they disagree. Even those who hold to the DoG disagree with each other on some things (i.e. dispensationalism vs. covenant theology).

I quit the Baptist board a few years back over such childish behavior on the part of some. I'm not going to quit this time, but I am going to take the action of no longer interacting with certain posters. It's not necessary to name them. In fact, it's not helpful to name them since I am convinced, that apart from an act of grace upon their heart, they are not going to change their behavior.

To my Calvinist brethren I make this appeal: do not repay insult with insult or ad hominem with ad hominem. Don't feel the need to set right every mischaracterization. With reasonable people that would be fine, but you're not dealing with reasonable people. I'm not asking you to disengage from the debate, but do so without being goaded. Nothing exposes boorish behavior more than allowing such behavior to stand on its own. Remember that there are many who read the threads on this board who never post. They are the ones you are really speaking to when you offer up a biblical defense on the DoG; not those who cast insults or accuse you, their brethren, of being rank heretics or unbelievers.

 

[Rippon]

Ok, so you agree that Christ died for the sheep. You say that it's not just the sheep. Please provide Scripture that says that Christ died for the goats.

Don't wait on that jbh. It will not be forthcoming. He has not yet responded to my last couple of posts directed toward him filled with direct Scripture on the subject. It's far easier for him and some other to heap abuse rather than offer scriptural refutation.

 

[Rippon]

The Lord laid down His life for the sheep alone -- not the goats as well.

In John 10:11 it says that "The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." Does that mean :"Well the sheep yes,but everyone else is included too."? Certainly not. Believe the Word of God.

When Jesus repeats Himself in verse 15 he says "I lay down my life for the sheep." Did He really mean to say --BTW,everyone else is covered too. I laid down my life for them too."? Of course not. Do not doubt the Holy Word of God.

In verse 28 Jesus says "I give them [my sheep]eternal life." He is giving only His sheep eternal life --no one else. The goats are not included.

Go to Matthew 25:31-46. It is speaking of the division of the sheep and the goats. Look at verses 32,33:"All the nations will be gathered before him,and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left." Only the ones on His right[the sheep] will enter into glory according to verse 34. The goats on His left enter eternal fire according to verse 41.

Go to Acts 20:28c :"The church of God which he bought with own blood." Does that mean something different like :Oh,I really intended to say He purchased the church of God with His blood,but everyone else too." I think not Winman. Believe the Scriptures.

Go to Ephesians 5:25 and notice what Paul said about the sacrifice of the Lord:"Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." That does not mean :"In my haste I don't want to imply that Christ didn't also give Himself up for everyone else as well." Absolutely not. Christ doed for the Church of God. He died for His Bride --no one else.

You are guilty as charged, for reading into the Bible that which is not there Winman.

Winman --deal with this post. Line by line. No evasions --no dishonesty or inconsistency.

 

[Rippon]

In John 10:16 Jesus said:"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice,and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

Jesus does not say anything about goats being included also in His sheep pen. Why? Because it is the sheep --His sheep -- not goats that are part of His sheep flock.

In verse 26 Jesus says :"but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." In verse 27 He says:"My sheep listen to my voice;I know them,and they follow me." Do the goats listen to His voice? Of course not. Only His sheep. In the following verse Jesus says something unequivocal. "I give them eternal life." Them, specifically them. No one else is given eternal life but the sheep. That's the thrust of his whole message from verses 1-29. How can you miss it --unless you are doing so intentionally?

This post of mine with its plain Scripture passages need to be addressed by you Winman. Don't play around. Don't hide. Deal directly with each line of my post.

 

[Winman]

Winman --deal with this post. Line by line. No evasions --no dishonesty or inconsistency.

I will answer this later today, I have to go to work now. This is not an evasion, but the truth.