How Do We Define "Limited Atonement" per the Bible?

[Rippon]

This is exactly what Spurgeon talked about in the quote Psalms109 showed, Calvinists "explode" (Spurgeon's words) the scriptures until they can make them say the opposite of their true intention.

I didn't see any quote of Spurgeon saying such a thing. By the way,you are aware that he was staunch Calvinist,aren't you?

I agree with this 100%, Calvinists "wrest" scripture. They twist it, manipulate it, and redefine it to fit their system instead of allowing scripture to very simply and straightforwardly say what it says.

How does it feel to be charging others with your manipulations?

You see clear Scripture about Christ laying down His life for the sheep --and yet it goes against your grain. "That can't be." you try to reason. "It goes against my theology. Christ must have neglected to say --and everyone else,i.e.the goats. So I will help massage the text to my way of thinking even if it is patently dishonest."

Yes,please. Be straightforward with the Word of God Winman.

This is how Calvinists are similar to JWs and Mormons. Get mad, but it is true.

Robert S. has been hi 5ing you for a long time. Now you want to emulate his character. Hmm.

 

[DHK]

The Lord laid down His life for the sheep alone -- not the goats as well.

I will answer this for you Rippon.
First, as has been pointed out, Christ died for the sins of all the world. That includes goats. You must concede that point. (John 3:16; 1John 2:2; etc.)

In John 10:11 it says that "The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." Does that mean :"Well the sheep yes,but everyone else is included too." ? Certainly not. Believe the Word of God.

You can't make parables, figurative language, metaphors, etc. walk on all fours. It just doesn't work that way! Examine the passage.
1. Did Christ look like a shepherd? No.
2. Do believers look like sheep? No.
3. Is Jesus lying down in the gateway of an actual sheep-pen? No.
--So why are you stretching this parable farther than what it was intended to teach?
What was it intended to teach? "The Good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." Drawing other inferences--half truths based on supposed goats which are not even mentioned, are not biblical, and is not rightly dividing the word of truth. There is nothing about goat in this passage, and it was not intended to teach anything about goats. Your teaching is wrong.
Christ laid down his life for the sheep. Stop there. We all agree on that point. That is the only point that Jesus was teaching. Don't infer anything else.

When Jesus repeats Himself in verse 15 he says "I lay down my life for the sheep." Did He really mean to say --BTW,everyone else is covered too. I laid down my life fore them too." ? Of course not. Do not doubt the Holy Word of God.

He meant what he said, and we all agree on that. Why take it any further. You are doing an injustice to the word of God.

In verse 28 Jesus says "I give them [my sheep]eternal life." He is giving only His sheep eternal life --no one else. The goats are not included.

Jesus never said anything about goats. Only you have. Why are you reading into this passage something that is not there? Believe the truths that are written. We all agree on what is written. There is no problem here in what Jesus said. No one disagrees--not on the words of Jesus. What we disagree with is your insertion, your adding to the Word of God.

Go to Matthew 25:31-46. It is speaking of the division of the sheep and the goats. Look at verse 32,33:"All the nations will be gathered before him,and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left." Only the ones on His right[the sheep] will enter into glory according to verse 34. The goats on His left enter eternal fire according to verse 41.

Here is the place where Jesus mentions goats, not in the other places. Goats are not always put in contrast to sheep, but they are here. However, here is a completely different situation, not applicable to our day. You will no doubt disagree with my interpretation, but I will give it to you anyway.
NOTE:
1. This is a judgment of the nations.
2. The sheep and the goats are gathered before him and then separated.
3. What is separated? The nations are separated!
4. On what basis are they separated? They are separated on the basis of who loved "my brethren" (Israel), and who did not.
5. When does this take place? It takes place just after the tribulation and just before the Millennial Kingdom. Jesus is separating the anti-semitic nations like Islamic nations, from those who have been friendly to Israel. Whether he does this on a corporate or individual basis we don't know. Keep in mind that all believers will have been raptured, and they (that are mentioned here) are all unsaved anyway. There is nothing unjust here; God in his mercy is simply giving some of those who are coming through the tribulation a chance to make things right in the Millennial Kingdom. Note again that at the end of the Millennial Kingdom Satan will gather an army in number as the sand of the sea that will rise up against Christ. Where do you think that they will come from?

In summary, you cannot use this illustration for the unsaved every time you shout: "goats, goats, goats! Jesus didn't die for goats." It is you that are not making sense.

Go to Acts 20:28c :"The church of God which he bought with own blood." Does that mean something different like :Oh,I really intended to say He purchased the church of God with His blood,but everyone else too." I think not Winman. Believe the Scriptures.

It says what it says. He shed his blood for the church: all who became saved.

Go to Ephesians 5:25 and notice what Paul said about the sacrifice of the Lord:"Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." That does not mean :"In my haste I don't want to imply that Christ also gave Himself up for everyone else as well." Absolutely not. Chriswt doed for the Chhurch of God. He died for His Bride --no one else.

He died for all. His death was efficacious for all who believed.

You are guilty as charged, for reading into the Bible that which is not there Winman.

Though I am not Winman, I believe you are reading into the Bible more than what is there. Consider some more about sheep:

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)
--I have rarely heard a good salvation message without the preacher passing up a chance to use this verse. What does it say? We have ALL gone astray. We are ALL sheep. The Lord has paid the penalty for us ALL--ALL in the world. We are all sheep without a shepherd, gone astray, wandering aimlessly until we come to Christ and trust him. Then Christ becomes our Great Shepherd. We are compared to unsaved sheep because of their characteristics--dumb, stupid, following blindly one another, etc.

The parable of the lost sheep. Almost always this "lost" unsaved sheep needs to be redeemed. It once was lost. Now it is found. The theme there is redemption.

Often sheep are used in the sense of being lost. It is not always: sheep vs. goats; in fact that is very rarely the case. More often than not it is lost sheep vs. sheep who come to Christ. Which are you? (rhetorical question). He died for us all. He personally went after the lost sheep.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just to clarify DHC, I'm a Calvinist who believe these .....ahh inferences & I start coming to your church because I'm also a baptist.

Do you :

1. Allow me to continue to believe what I see in scripture (as long as I dont interfere with your non-Calvinistic beliefs).

2. Begin to school me as to what you view as Calvinistic error?

3. Calvinist.... your not allowed in my church.

 

[DHK]

Just to clarify DHC, I'm a Calvinist who believe these .....ahh inferences & I start coming to your church because I'm also a baptist.

Do you :

1. Allow me to continue to believe what I see in scripture (as long as I dont interfere with your non-Calvinistic beliefs).

2. Begin to school me as to what you view as Calvinistic error?

3. Calvinist.... your not allowed in my church.

I welcome you as a Baptist brother. But if you are of the stripe that causes division among the brethren, because of your beliefs then that would be another matter. We can always agree to disagree.

 

[preacher4truth]

Who said Calvinists are good at exposition of scriptures? Calvinists!

This is exactly what Spurgeon talked about in the quote Psalms109 showed, Calvinists "explode" (Spurgeon's words) the scriptures until they can make them say the opposite of their true intention. I agree with this 100%, Calvinists "wrest" scripture. They twist it, manipulate it, and redefine it to fit their system instead of allowing scripture to very simply and straightforwardly say what it says. This thread is an example, there are MANY verses that say Jesus died for all men, but Calvinists refuse to accept this simple truth because it refutes their doctrine. They are more concerned with preserving their doctrine than knowing the truth. This is how Calvinists are similar to JWs and Mormons. Get mad, but it is true.

You are only hurting (and deceiving) yourselves.

Wow, look at how you're behaving. Again.

I sincerely couldn't imagine what would happen to such a post like this if it were written against non-cals/arminians.

Honestly, nothing you've said describes a Calvinist brother, nor what a Calvinist brother does.

Others have informed you that this is rather what you are doing.

Carry on though. I'm not going to admonish you about what you do to Scriptures or of how you speak to and of other brothers and how you cast doubt upon their salvation by aligning them with cult groups. You've been admonished more times than the Biblical mandate.

Obviously this behavior is allowable from your side to ours on the BB. I'll accept this as from the Lord and do accept it graciously as per 1Pe 2:20b ...But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

 

[Robert Snow]

Robert,you have the sinful habit of equating Calvinism with the JW's.

From 11/13/2011 : The JWs could learn a thing or two from them [Calvinists].

From 11/4/2011 : The Mormons and the JWs say the same thing [as the Calvinists].

From 9/29/2011 : When it comes to twisting Scripture,even the JWs would be proud [again,comparing them with Calvinists].

From 3/6/2011 : Again,it's like the JWs. I've argued for months with these people and all we end up doing is going round and round in circles. The same is true of Calvinists.

From 3/5/2011 : The entire concept of Calvinism only works by twisting Scripture like the JWs,and all other cults do.

2/27/2011 : I was saying that just like beliefs that are heretical,like JWs,who read into the Bible to support their false doctrine,Calvinism reads things into Scripture...I was not saying Calvinism is a false doctrine.

If the shoe fits...

 

[jbh28]

If the shoe fits...

Robert, you have been warned by many on here to stop your unchristlike behavior. There is no reason to compare other believers to cults. Just address the issues. Don't resort to ad hominem attacks. These are considered personal attacks.

 

[preacher4truth]

Robert, you have been warned by many on here to stop your unchristlike behavior. There is no reason to compare other believers to cults. Just address the issues. Don't resort to ad hominem attacks. These are considered personal attacks.

jbh28, I appreciate your continued rebuke of Robert Snow, and yes, you are correct in your assessment of him. Keep in mind however that this is allowed to continue, and has been going on for a long time now, and most likely will continue for a long time to come. If it is "not" being allowed, then why is it still there? There is no way it is unnoticed. I must say that I see this attitude and bad spirit coming toward the Calvinist side most often. These are merely inflammatory in nature and that is the objective here.

Take it all in grace. Sometimes not responding to the likes of Robert Snow will reduce these kind of over-looked posts. I'd post one similar, but 1) I'm going to refrain as it is not Christ-like 2) I would certainly receive and infraction immediately if not sooner 3) There is no need to stoop to that level. The thing that concerns me and should concern Mr. Snow is that this is a consistent pattern of behavior for him.

 

[Robert Snow]

Robert, you have been warned by many on here to stop your unchristlike behavior. There is no reason to compare other believers to cults. Just address the issues. Don't resort to ad hominem attacks. These are considered personal attacks.

Do you understand the English language?

I did not compare Calvinists to Jehovah's Witnesses. I compared their tactics, don't you see a difference, or is it that this all hits too close to the truth?

 

[asterisktom]

There is no "biblical" concept of a limited atonement, the scriptures say Jesus died for all (100%) men.

Egg-zactly. Jesus did for all men: Peter, Paul, you, me, Pharaoh in the book of Exodus...Ooops. Wait-a-minnit...

Hmm. What about Pharaoh? Did Christ die for one already doomed?

 

[jbh28]

Do you understand the English language?

I did not compare Calvinists to Jehovah's Witnesses. I compared their tactics, don't you see a difference, or is it that this all hits too close to the truth?

It's the same thing. If you were to compare Calvinist to Jehovah's Witnesses, what would you compare? One would be their....tactics. Just stop it.

 

[Robert Snow]

It's the same thing. If you were to compare Calvinist to Jehovah's Witnesses, what would you compare? One would be their....tactics. Just stop it.

It's not the same thing, and you know it!

The point I was making is easy to understand. Over the years in my dealings with Jehovah's Witnesses they always use certain scriptures to prove their point. Get them off their prepared script and many of them are at a loss for words. I believe this is the same with those who espouse Calvinism.

But I tell you what. For the sake of peace, I will not make any comparisons between Calvinists and Jehovah's Witnesses in the future.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Scripture Quotations from the NKJV

It is entirely true that Christ laid down His life for the sheep and no one else. Consider John 10:26. 'But you do not beieve because you are not My sheep.' He does not say, "You are not My sheep because you do not believe." It is Christ's sheep who believe because they are a special breed of sheep. They are distinguished by the ears and their feet. They hear the Shepherd's voice and they follow Him (10:27).

However, that is not all the evience for Particular Redemption. The Lord Jesus was given a particular task to fulfil by the Father. This is expressed in the Covenant of Grace or Council of Redemption and revealed in the following verses:-

Luke 22:22. “And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined……” Determined where and by whom if not in the Covenant of Grace?

John 6:38-39. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” Christ has been given a people and the task by the Father which He is determined to fulfil. What can this refer to if not the Covenant of Grace? Note also that He has not come to offer salvation but to save.

John 10:16. “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” Not, “I will bring,” or "I will try to bring" but, “I must bring.” Our Lord had been given a commission to fulfil.

John 10:17-18. “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” Where did Christ receive this command, the doing of which merited so well the Father’s love? In the Covenant of Grace, of course.

Phil 2:6-8 (my translation). ‘Who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be held onto, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.’ In the Covenant of Grace, our Lord gave up temporarily that equality with the Father that had existed from all eternity, and became the willing servant of Exodus 21:5-6 and Psalm 40:6-8 in order to rescue those who had been given to Him

John 17:2. 'You have given Him [the Son] authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.' Here again, the Father has given the Son a people to redeem, and He does not just offer eternal life to them, He gives it.

Heb 2:13. ‘Here am I and the children whom God has given to Me.’ Given by the Father to the Son in the Covenant of Grace to be redeemed from sin and brought to heaven.

More detail may be found here: http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2009/09/07/the-covenants-part-ii-the-covenant-of-grace/

Steve

 

[Dr. Bob]

To my Calvinist brethren:

It is sad to see such viscous and mean-spirited attacks against us by some , but not all, who reject our understanding of Scripture. These type of attacks are the result of those who not only cannot refute sound biblical exegesis, but also those who possess an angry spirit. My heart grieves when I see people act this way. I am not grieved over those who disagree with the DoG but do so while displaying respect towards their brothers and sisters with whom they disagree. Even those who hold to the DoG disagree with each other on some things (i.e. dispensationalism vs. covenant theology).

I quit the Baptist board a few years back over such childish behavior on the part of some. I'm not going to quit this time, but I am going to take the action of no longer interacting with certain posters. It's not necessary to name them. In fact, it's not helpful to name them since I am convinced, that apart from an act of grace upon their heart, they are not going to change their behavior.

To my Calvinist brethren I make this appeal: do not repay insult with insult or ad hominem with ad hominem. Don't feel the need to set right every mischaracterization. With reasonable people that would be fine, but you're not dealing with reasonable people. I'm not asking you to disengage from the debate, but do so without being goaded. Nothing exposes boorish behavior more than allowing such behavior to stand on its own. Remember that there are many who read the threads on this board who never post. They are the ones you are really speaking to when you offer up a biblical defense on the DoG; not those who cast insults or accuse you, their brethren, of being rank heretics or unbelievers.

Amen. I see those attacking the Word of God and Sovereignty of His grace as typical of those unlearned in the Scripture. Have to help them see the truth . . but not in senseless debate.

We have a few on the BB who willingly are ignorant of truth and spout their unbelief as if WE who hold God's sovereignty (not man's) so high. They have the right to think this way. As Baptists, "soul liberty" is also a highly-held distinctive.

They think we are wrong. We do not smile. We feel only sadness and pity and pray for the light to shine in their minds. Dr McCune, an old retired seminary prof who was arminian for many years, said to remember these folks are not unsaved or unregenerate; they are just confused doctrinally.

 

[Robert Snow]

Amen. I see those attacking the Word of God and Sovereignty of His grace as typical of those unlearned in the Scripture. Have to help them see the truth . . but not in senseless debate.

We have a few on the BB who willingly are ignorant of truth and spout their unbelief as if WE who hold God's sovereignty (not man's) so high. They have the right to think this way. As Baptists, "soul liberty" is also a highly-held distinctive.

They think we are wrong. We do not smile. We feel only sadness and pity and pray for the light to shine in their minds. Dr McCune, an old retired seminary prof who was arminian for many years, said to remember these folks are not unsaved or unregenerate; they are just confused doctrinally.

We non-Calvinists feel the same way about you Calvinists.

 

[JesusFan]

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also the sins of the whole world.

In 1 John, when John speaks of the "world" he is ALWAYS speaking of 100% of mankind and NEVER the elect only.

1 Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

When John speaks of the world here, is he speaking of the elect only? Hardly.

1 Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Here, John again speaks of the "whole world" as he did in 1 Jn 2:2. Does "whole world" refer to the elect (sheep) here? Of course not, and you will not find any scholar that says that.

In Jn 3:16 the scriptures again say God loved "the world" and "gave" his Son Jesus for it. Again, John is speaking of all mankind (which includes the goats).

You know this, and you know Calvinism has to perform mental gymnastics to explain this and many other verses away. You are without excuse.

the death of jesus upon the Cross was of infininite worth, was indeed an atonement that was able to atone/pay for ALL sind EVER to be commited, BUT in order to have it applied on ones spiritual accounts, has to be aprropiated by faith in messiah, and due to be sinners and unable to come to that point by themselves, ONLY those who were elected by god to receive jesus will receive the effectual application of the unlimited grace on the cross...

ALL can be saved by the Cross, ONLY those whom were enebled by god will be able to have faith to be even able to received jesus Christ!

 

[Winman]

Egg-zactly. Jesus did for all men: Peter, Paul, you, me, Pharaoh in the book of Exodus...Ooops. Wait-a-minnit...

Hmm. What about Pharaoh? Did Christ die for one already doomed?

Yes, I believe Jesus died for Pharaoh's sin and every other man that lived. Pharaoh could have submitted to God, but rebelled.and rejected God's grace.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, I believe Jesus died for Pharaoh's sin and every other man that lived. Pharaoh could have submitted to God, but rebelled.and rejected God's grace.

Apostle paul would differ with you on that, as he said God had prepared pharoah as being an unfit vessal, one doomed to destruction, a pot that the creator would smash amd dash to pieces...

Pharoah in his heart and by own sinful choice disobeyed the hebrew God, God completed the hardening process and used him to be part of the delieverance of isreal from out of Egypt!

 

[Tom Butler]

In Steve's post #73 he quotes a couple of scriptures that intrigue me.

Here's one: John 6:37

This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Here are another couple of references
John 17:2b

...that he (the Son) should give eternal life to as many as thou
(the Father) have given him.

John 17:6

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me, and they have kept thy word

John 17:9

I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou has given me; for they are thine

Who are these people whom God has given to His Son out of the world? Obviously, they are believers. Further, it may be said that this includes those who will believe in the future. This is because whoever the Father has given to the Son has been given from eternity--from the foundations of the world, if you will.

Those believers have eternal life. Given by the Son. To those whom the Father gave Him.

These are the same people Jesus described as sheep in John 10. The ones who hear His voice. Those who are not his sheep do not hear his voice. They are the ones who were not given by the Father to the Son.

They are the ones for whom the Son did not lay down his life, for Jesus laid down his life for the sheep.

 

[Robert Snow]

Apostle paul would differ with you on that, as he said God had prepared pharoah as being an unfit vessal, one doomed to destruction, a pot that the creator would smash amd dash to pieces...

Pharoah in his heart and by own sinful choice disobeyed the hebrew God, God completed the hardening process and used him to be part of the delieverance of isreal from out of Egypt!

Had Pharaoh not hardened his own heart, God would not have hardened it either. If Pharaoh had been willing to trust in God, God would have accepted him. He was lost because he choose to be, not because God made him.

BTW, you really should get some type of spell checker or at least a dictionary.