How Do We Define "Limited Atonement" per the Bible?

I didn't see any quote of Spurgeon saying such a thing. By the way,you are aware that he was staunch Calvinist,aren't you?

How does it feel to be charging others with your manipulations?

You see clear Scripture about Christ laying down His life for the sheep --and yet it goes against your grain. "That can't be." you try to reason. "It goes against my theology. Christ must have neglected to say --and everyone else,i.e.the goats. So I will help massage the text to my way of thinking even if it is patently dishonest."

Yes,please. Be straightforward with the Word of God Winman.

Robert S. has been hi 5ing you for a long time. Now you want to emulate his character. Hmm.

 

I will answer this for you Rippon.
First, as has been pointed out, Christ died for the sins of all the world. That includes goats. You must concede that point. (John 3:16; 1John 2:2; etc.)

You can't make parables, figurative language, metaphors, etc. walk on all fours. It just doesn't work that way! Examine the passage.
1. Did Christ look like a shepherd? No.
2. Do believers look like sheep? No.
3. Is Jesus lying down in the gateway of an actual sheep-pen? No.
--So why are you stretching this parable farther than what it was intended to teach?
What was it intended to teach? "The Good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." Drawing other inferences--half truths based on supposed goats which are not even mentioned, are not biblical, and is not rightly dividing the word of truth. There is nothing about goat in this passage, and it was not intended to teach anything about goats. Your teaching is wrong.
Christ laid down his life for the sheep. Stop there. We all agree on that point. That is the only point that Jesus was teaching. Don't infer anything else.

He meant what he said, and we all agree on that. Why take it any further. You are doing an injustice to the word of God.

Jesus never said anything about goats. Only you have. Why are you reading into this passage something that is not there? Believe the truths that are written. We all agree on what is written. There is no problem here in what Jesus said. No one disagrees--not on the words of Jesus. What we disagree with is your insertion, your adding to the Word of God.

Here is the place where Jesus mentions goats, not in the other places. Goats are not always put in contrast to sheep, but they are here. However, here is a completely different situation, not applicable to our day. You will no doubt disagree with my interpretation, but I will give it to you anyway.
NOTE:
1. This is a judgment of the nations.
2. The sheep and the goats are gathered before him and then separated.
3. What is separated? The nations are separated!
4. On what basis are they separated? They are separated on the basis of who loved "my brethren" (Israel), and who did not.
5. When does this take place? It takes place just after the tribulation and just before the Millennial Kingdom. Jesus is separating the anti-semitic nations like Islamic nations, from those who have been friendly to Israel. Whether he does this on a corporate or individual basis we don't know. Keep in mind that all believers will have been raptured, and they (that are mentioned here) are all unsaved anyway. There is nothing unjust here; God in his mercy is simply giving some of those who are coming through the tribulation a chance to make things right in the Millennial Kingdom. Note again that at the end of the Millennial Kingdom Satan will gather an army in number as the sand of the sea that will rise up against Christ. Where do you think that they will come from?

In summary, you cannot use this illustration for the unsaved every time you shout: "goats, goats, goats! Jesus didn't die for goats." It is you that are not making sense.

It says what it says. He shed his blood for the church: all who became saved.

He died for all. His death was efficacious for all who believed.

Though I am not Winman, I believe you are reading into the Bible more than what is there. Consider some more about sheep:

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)
--I have rarely heard a good salvation message without the preacher passing up a chance to use this verse. What does it say? We have ALL gone astray. We are ALL sheep. The Lord has paid the penalty for us ALL--ALL in the world. We are all sheep without a shepherd, gone astray, wandering aimlessly until we come to Christ and trust him. Then Christ becomes our Great Shepherd. We are compared to unsaved sheep because of their characteristics--dumb, stupid, following blindly one another, etc.

The parable of the lost sheep. Almost always this "lost" unsaved sheep needs to be redeemed. It once was lost. Now it is found. The theme there is redemption.

Often sheep are used in the sense of being lost. It is not always: sheep vs. goats; in fact that is very rarely the case. More often than not it is lost sheep vs. sheep who come to Christ. Which are you? (rhetorical question). He died for us all. He personally went after the lost sheep.

 

Just to clarify DHC, I'm a Calvinist who believe these .....ahh inferences & I start coming to your church because I'm also a baptist.

Do you :

1. Allow me to continue to believe what I see in scripture (as long as I dont interfere with your non-Calvinistic beliefs).

2. Begin to school me as to what you view as Calvinistic error?

3. Calvinist.... your not allowed in my church.

 

I welcome you as a Baptist brother. But if you are of the stripe that causes division among the brethren, because of your beliefs then that would be another matter. We can always agree to disagree.

 

Wow, look at how you're behaving. Again.

I sincerely couldn't imagine what would happen to such a post like this if it were written against non-cals/arminians.

Honestly, nothing you've said describes a Calvinist brother, nor what a Calvinist brother does.

Others have informed you that this is rather what you are doing.

Carry on though. I'm not going to admonish you about what you do to Scriptures or of how you speak to and of other brothers and how you cast doubt upon their salvation by aligning them with cult groups. You've been admonished more times than the Biblical mandate.

Obviously this behavior is allowable from your side to ours on the BB. I'll accept this as from the Lord and do accept it graciously as per 1Pe 2:20b ...But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

 

If the shoe fits...

 

Robert, you have been warned by many on here to stop your unchristlike behavior. There is no reason to compare other believers to cults. Just address the issues. Don't resort to ad hominem attacks. These are considered personal attacks.

 

jbh28, I appreciate your continued rebuke of Robert Snow, and yes, you are correct in your assessment of him. Keep in mind however that this is allowed to continue, and has been going on for a long time now, and most likely will continue for a long time to come. If it is "not" being allowed, then why is it still there? There is no way it is unnoticed. I must say that I see this attitude and bad spirit coming toward the Calvinist side most often. These are merely inflammatory in nature and that is the objective here.

Take it all in grace. Sometimes not responding to the likes of Robert Snow will reduce these kind of over-looked posts. I'd post one similar, but 1) I'm going to refrain as it is not Christ-like 2) I would certainly receive and infraction immediately if not sooner 3) There is no need to stoop to that level. The thing that concerns me and should concern Mr. Snow is that this is a consistent pattern of behavior for him.

 

Do you understand the English language?

I did not compare Calvinists to Jehovah's Witnesses. I compared their tactics, don't you see a difference, or is it that this all hits too close to the truth?

 

Egg-zactly. Jesus did for all men: Peter, Paul, you, me, Pharaoh in the book of Exodus...Ooops. Wait-a-minnit...

Hmm. What about Pharaoh? Did Christ die for one already doomed?

 

It's the same thing. If you were to compare Calvinist to Jehovah's Witnesses, what would you compare? One would be their....tactics. Just stop it.

 

It's not the same thing, and you know it!

The point I was making is easy to understand. Over the years in my dealings with Jehovah's Witnesses they always use certain scriptures to prove their point. Get them off their prepared script and many of them are at a loss for words. I believe this is the same with those who espouse Calvinism.

But I tell you what. For the sake of peace, I will not make any comparisons between Calvinists and Jehovah's Witnesses in the future.

 

Scripture Quotations from the NKJV

It is entirely true that Christ laid down His life for the sheep and no one else. Consider John 10:26. 'But you do not beieve because you are not My sheep.' He does not say, "You are not My sheep because you do not believe." It is Christ's sheep who believe because they are a special breed of sheep. They are distinguished by the ears and their feet. They hear the Shepherd's voice and they follow Him (10:27).

However, that is not all the evience for Particular Redemption. The Lord Jesus was given a particular task to fulfil by the Father. This is expressed in the Covenant of Grace or Council of Redemption and revealed in the following verses:-

Luke 22:22. “And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined……” Determined where and by whom if not in the Covenant of Grace?

John 6:38-39. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” Christ has been given a people and the task by the Father which He is determined to fulfil. What can this refer to if not the Covenant of Grace? Note also that He has not come to offer salvation but to save.

John 10:16. “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” Not, “I will bring,” or "I will try to bring" but, “I must bring.” Our Lord had been given a commission to fulfil.

John 10:17-18. “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” Where did Christ receive this command, the doing of which merited so well the Father’s love? In the Covenant of Grace, of course.

Phil 2:6-8 (my translation). ‘Who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be held onto, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.’ In the Covenant of Grace, our Lord gave up temporarily that equality with the Father that had existed from all eternity, and became the willing servant of Exodus 21:5-6 and Psalm 40:6-8 in order to rescue those who had been given to Him

John 17:2. 'You have given Him [the Son] authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.' Here again, the Father has given the Son a people to redeem, and He does not just offer eternal life to them, He gives it.

Heb 2:13. ‘Here am I and the children whom God has given to Me.’ Given by the Father to the Son in the Covenant of Grace to be redeemed from sin and brought to heaven.

More detail may be found here: http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2009/09/07/the-covenants-part-ii-the-covenant-of-grace/

Steve

 

We non-Calvinists feel the same way about you Calvinists.

 

Yes, I believe Jesus died for Pharaoh's sin and every other man that lived. Pharaoh could have submitted to God, but rebelled.and rejected God's grace.

 

In Steve's post #73 he quotes a couple of scriptures that intrigue me.

Here's one: John 6:37

Here are another couple of references
John 17:2b

John 17:6

John 17:9

Who are these people whom God has given to His Son out of the world? Obviously, they are believers. Further, it may be said that this includes those who will believe in the future. This is because whoever the Father has given to the Son has been given from eternity--from the foundations of the world, if you will.

Those believers have eternal life. Given by the Son. To those whom the Father gave Him.

These are the same people Jesus described as sheep in John 10. The ones who hear His voice. Those who are not his sheep do not hear his voice. They are the ones who were not given by the Father to the Son.

They are the ones for whom the Son did not lay down his life, for Jesus laid down his life for the sheep.

 

Had Pharaoh not hardened his own heart, God would not have hardened it either. If Pharaoh had been willing to trust in God, God would have accepted him. He was lost because he choose to be, not because God made him.

BTW, you really should get some type of spell checker or at least a dictionary.