How do we define what is good and evil?

[jbh28]

God has to win no victory over any actual adversary. None exists who can stand at the feet of God and overcome Him.

HE IS GOD! NNE ELSE IS GOD!

You have just expressed THE most heretical statement of all that you have ever expressed on this board.

As for "playing both sides of the chessboard (so to speak)" you have also just erected another strawman of the opposition. Quit it already. You either know better by now, or are working for anti-Christ.

I'm starting to thing that the straw man arguments are not going to go away. If what we believed was really all that bad, they could just argue against that instead of making stuff up.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yep, too bad you don't understand them. :tongue3:

One of us does not understand them, and I know who it is:thumbsup:

If ignorance is bliss....does that mean you are in a state of constant euphoria my friend Benjamin???

We can do this all day, .....or ..we can attempt to move forward scripturally, and actually discuss bible truth. If you do not desire such,that is up to you.

 

[Benjamin]

We can do this all day...

Here is something on your level to keep the discussion going:

 

[Benjamin]

I'm starting to thing that the straw man arguments are not going to go away. If what we believed was really all that bad, they could just argue against that instead of making stuff up.

You guys wouldn’t recognize a valid deductive argument if it jumped up and bit your nose off, and your misuse of the term “strawman” for a line of defense factually amounts to nothing more than a means for you to go into whining about what the conclusion a valid argument demonstrates about your position.

 

[Benjamin]

God has to win no victory over any actual adversary. None exists who can stand at the feet of God and overcome Him.

HE IS GOD! NNE ELSE IS GOD!

You have just expressed THE most heretical statement of all that you have ever expressed on this board.

As for "playing both sides of the chessboard (so to speak)" you have also just erected another strawman of the opposition. Quit it already. You either know better by now, or are working for anti-Christ.

Dude, did you take your medications today?

My, how some of you Calvinist/Determinist can get fired up when there is talk of a victory over evil!

Jesus Christ came, died and rose again to provide the grand means of overcoming (providing victory over) sin and death in the world! Whoever is born of God conquers whatever it is that lays in the path leading to death; through faith in Him believers overcometh the world to the glory of God! God, in His Goodness and Love provided the Way to overcome evil and there is a victory for Him and rejoicing in Heaven every time sin and evil is overcome because of His great sacrifice. Yet, your Determinist’ arguments could only lead to that evil coming into the world is just a mirage, or something God Himself created, and your only defense to your determinist’ view is to start throwing out philosophical terms like “strawman” (which you should really stop doing because your lack of logic in breaking down arguments is revealed every time you misuse these philosophical terms to engage in your own un-philosophical types of street arguing).

1) If you don’t like how your view is perceived then state your view and explain how it is that there is no actual “adversary” and while you’re at it what is the purpose for Jesus Christ coming into the world and paying the price for sin and death if there wasn’t a need for these things to be defeated.

2) It is beyond ridiculous that you would openly claim there is no “ACTUAL adversary (evil, sin, and death - SATAN!) to win victory over” and then go about calling it a “heretical statement” for your opposition to ask how it is that there is both: no “actual adversary” and yet God is sovereign over something/anything??? IOWs how it is that God is “playing both sides of the chess board” (both good and evil?)? Can you not see how illogical and fallacious your argument is?! You make a totally illogical claim of “strawman and heresy” and turn toward this Ad Hominem through these accusations of heresy and speak of strawman fallacy while not even offering a valid argument how the claim of your opponent in not true! Sorry bud, but your philosophical debate skills are sorely lacking...quit abusing and trying to rely on terms that you don't fully understand the purpose for or meaning of.

or are working for anti-Christ.

3) You really don’t want to divert into a discussion of who it is here that seems to be playing for the team of anti-Christ while you claim there is no adversary, do you?

 

[Iconoclast]

Although we all know what a difficult prospect it is to ascertain the heart, intent and motives of another, I am convinced, as I think YOU are too that no one makes such arguments out of a sense of defining God as wicked. Perhaps a little overzealous in explaining how they see YOU and your view at their interpretation of its logical conclusion. I see most arguments (I think you are referring to) to be prefaced by "if things are as you say" (or something similar).

QF,

I can agree with you in large part,and yet....to speak of God that way is nevertheless blasphemous. It is to take the name of God in vain.
Keep in mind QF that no one that I see in Church history makes such objections...at least not any reputable ones.
Yes.... I can sometimes provoke some of the responses...as with my number one fan...benjamin:love2: I know he really means me no harm,and secretly he knows that the DoG are true. He is just frustrated in that he only wants to believe ,or see the Promise box verses...all the nice happy ones...without the other side of the sword.
His arguement is not with me ,but with God. Your pal Skan also....he is on a mission 24/7 to combat what he believes are wrong teaching...but the scripture indicates that there are those who oppose themselves
His posts are very negative in that it seems he has a problem with God allowing sin, suffering, and death,....as part of His ordained plan. These last couple of threads are mocking the biblical God QF...
Wrong theology,leads to wrong thinking . That is what I see...
Then we have Van...who seeks to re-define verses , tries to explain greek words, then when graciously corrected by Archangel, persists to repeat and amplify it??? Winman chimes in with more of the same,Aic,and a few others chip in...and it is like a great choir of error and heretical concepts...blaming God.....and not sin,.... for the troubles we see here in a sin cursed earth.
murder , hunger, abortion..etc.
They ridicule the historic confessions of the church as if the writers did not have a bible or the Spirit to Guide them.
At this point Mb , or seeking truth, or someone else will make the statement to the effect that ...they only need the bible..etc,
then comes the obligitory man made doctrines objection, or carnal reasoning...
When one of us posts a solid link....it gets brushed off. They do not consider the solidness of the teaching at all. We can tell because the links are never refuted. They are not refuted because no one wants to embarass themselves with such a weak response to a solidly biblical link from a trained teacher.
To try to actually work trough a link and put an answer in a thread will leave their ignorance on display for all to read. So instead of a response we get a one sentence quip....or how can we forget...a debate fallacy
You know QF......do not confuse me with the facts...I am a baptist mentality.

How do they oppose themselves??? When ever someone turns from truth they go into darkness.....Benjamin posts about it all the time, but ironically it is exactly where he travels into when he objects to the biblical revelation.
Look at Benjamins post #23....he thinks he is above us here on BB. His condescending tone shows that he reeks of pride,so he strikes out at GLfredrick, or Jbh....or anyone else who does not want to discuss his philosophy.....he "freely Wills" to post such rubbish
I have had many a good discussions with those who do not see through the same theological lens..QF....that is fine and profitable.
But non stop evil speaking and discontent about God's providence is not that kind of discussion.

JC Ryle and Richard Baxter did not fully hold the 5 points...but both were excedingly godly..above and beyond most of us....in that we still read their thoughts and teaching with a view to draw near to God.
I do not see either man railing against God, calvinists , election, or any such thing. let me know if you have found many quotes along that line.
For that matter..calvinists like Spurgeon are more effective in being critical of other calvinists in that we know he knows of the doctrine,and not the perennial strawman we see here.
In calvinist churches....not much time is spent discussing these false ideas here, as much as the Pastor speaks of the Lord and what he is doing in the world ,reaching lost souls.:thumbsup:

 

[glfredrick]

You guys wouldn’t recognize a valid deductive argument if it jumped up and bit your nose off, and your misuse of the term “strawman” for a line of defense factually amounts to nothing more than a means for you to go into whining about what the conclusion a valid argument demonstrates about your position.

So bring the ACTUAL argument already...

 

[Benjamin]

...and secretly he knows that the DoG are true.

As sure as:

 

[Iconoclast]

So bring the ACTUAL argument already...

:laugh::laugh: He would if he could,but he can't:type:

Evidently he can only find new smileys....and speak down to us:thumbsup:

 

[glfredrick]

Dude, did you take your medications today?

My, how some of you Calvinist/Determinist can get fired up when there is talk of a victory over evil!

Jesus Christ came, died and rose again to provide the grand means of overcoming (providing victory over) sin and death in the world! Whoever is born of God conquers whatever it is that lays in the path leading to death; through faith in Him believers overcometh the world to the glory of God! God, in His Goodness and Love provided the Way to overcome evil and there is a victory for Him and rejoicing in Heaven every time sin and evil is overcome because of His great sacrifice. Yet, your Determinist’ arguments could only lead to that evil coming into the world is just a mirage, or something God Himself created, and your only defense to your determinist’ view is to start throwing out philosophical terms like “strawman” (which you should really stop doing because your lack of logic in breaking down arguments is revealed every time you misuse these philosophical terms to engage in your own un-philosophical types of street arguing).

1) If you don’t like how your view is perceived then state your view and explain how it is that there is no actual “adversary” and while you’re at it what is the purpose for Jesus Christ coming into the world and paying the price for sin and death if there wasn’t a need for these things to be defeated.

2) It is beyond ridiculous that you would openly claim there is no “ACTUAL adversary (evil, sin, and death - SATAN!) to win victory over” and then go about calling it a “heretical statement” for your opposition to ask how it is that there is both: no “actual adversary” and yet God is sovereign over something/anything??? IOWs how it is that God is “playing both sides of the chess board” (both good and evil?)? Can you not see how illogical and fallacious your argument is?! You make a totally illogical claim of “strawman and heresy” and turn toward this Ad Hominem through these accusations of heresy and speak of strawman fallacy while not even offering a valid argument how the claim of your opponent in not true! Sorry bud, but your philosophical debate skills are sorely lacking...quit abusing and trying to rely on terms that you don't fully understand the purpose for or meaning of.




3) You really don’t want to divert into a discussion of who it is here that seems to be playing for the team of anti-Christ while you claim there is no adversary, do you?

So, if I boil down everything you said above, you ACTUALLY believe that there is some other person, force, et al, that can stand before God and whom God has to conquor in order to be God?

No wonder you are so confused...

You believe Mormon doctrine. :BangHead:

 

[AresMan]

God says "Thou shalt not kill."
God also tells certain people "Utterly destroy this people, including women, children, and animals."

Can any of us justify going out and killing someone regardless how strongly we feel that person is utterly morally destitute? We are limited by judicial authority and laws of equity.

Yet, God tells us not to kill, but gives certain people at certain times the command to kill people for His purpose that otherwise did the commanded people do direct, legal harm.


The same principle should apply when we "put God on trial" for "moral accountability." Upon what basis do we as the creature judge God as moral or immoral if "by Him were all things created" and nothing can transcend Him. If we do not understand how something could be true of God, this does not mean that we can rightly define God according to how we understand morality through our own fallible and fallen conception.

 

[Iconoclast]

God says "Thou shalt not kill."
God also tells certain people "Utterly destroy this people, including women, children, and animals."

Can any of us justify going out and killing someone regardless how strongly we feel that person is utterly morally destitute? We are limited by judicial authority and laws of equity.

Yet, God tells us not to kill, but gives certain people at certain times the command to kill people for His purpose that otherwise did the commanded people do direct, legal harm.


The same principle should apply when we "put God on trial" for "moral accountability." Upon what basis do we as the creature judge God as moral or immoral if "by Him were all things created" and nothing can transcend Him. If we do not understand how something could be true of God, this does not mean that we can rightly define God according to how we understand morality through our own fallible and fallen conception.

Correct....this is reality:thumbsup:

 

[Benjamin]

So bring the ACTUAL argument already...

If you can't recognize the argument (duh) that I practically spelled out for you along with your frivolous tactics to avoid valid debate methods in post #25, I can't help you. Just carry on with your unsubstantiated accusations and street methods of arguing that you sorrifully believe to be phiosophical reasoning and demonstrated once more your reliance of in post #30.

 

[Iconoclast]

So, if I boil down everything you said above, you ACTUALLY believe that there is some other person, force, et al, that can stand before God and whom God has to conquor in order to be God?

No wonder you are so confused...

You believe Mormon doctrine. :BangHead:

I did not think of that...he is in Arizona:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Benjamin]

So, if I boil down everything you said above, you ACTUALLY believe that there is some other person, force, et al, that can stand before God and whom God has to conquor in order to be God?

Your argument leaves no alternative but for evil to be determined by God. And your only defense to your argument which concludes such is to engage in the kind of childish rhetoric below:

No wonder you are so confused...

You believe Mormon doctrine. :BangHead:

Which you will do while hiding behind a keyboard but neither you or Icono would have the courage to demonstrate the same level of disrespectful accusations to my face. Your abilities to support your arguments are limited to such tactics. Says a lot about you both.

 

[glfredrick]

Your argument leaves no alternative but for evil to be determined by God. And your only defense to your argument which concludes such is to engage in the kind of childish rhetoric below:

So, you ACTUALLY THINK that there is some other god who can stand toe-to-toe with the God of the Bible, and whom the God of the Bible must challenge and defeat?

REALLY?

While the God of the Bible (I now feel the need to clarify WHICH God, I am speaking of) is, by His own divine revelation, HOLY, and WITHOUT EVIL, yes, I would attribute the existence of evil in this world to Him alone.

WHO ELSE CREATED EVERYTHING? I am comfortable in realizing that even the evil that exists in this cosmos stems from the permissive will of THE ONE TRUE GOD. You, evidently are not comfortable with that, and you in fact are inventing another god.

Which you will do while hiding behind a keyboard but neither you or Icono would have the courage to demonstrate the same level of disrespectful accusations to my face. Your abilities to support your arguments are limited to such tactics. Says a lot about you both.

What the heck are you talking about? Are you going off the deep end? It almost sounds like a DIRECT PHYSICAL THREAT.

 

[Benjamin]

So, you ACTUALLY THINK...

What I actually think on the matter of the origin of evil not coming from God and His purposes are posted #25, and they were posted in regard to your accusations of a strawman which is your method to avoid the argument already stated! I will not chase this childish diversion tactic. Other than that your attributing evil to God (talk about heresy ) has already been addressed in posts #2 and #10. God is Truth and no evil comes from Him!

What the heck are you talking about? Are you going off the deep end? It almost sounds like a DIRECT PHYSICAL THREAT.

I'm calling your tactics of debate cowardly and suggesting you should consider treating others as you would in person rather than engaging in your childish antics. Nice try, but I wouldn't begin to come down to your level of argument on the internet.

 

[glfredrick]

What I actually think on the matter of the origin of evil not coming from God and His purposes are posted #25, and they were posted in regard to your accusations of a strawman which is your method to avoid the argument already stated! I will not chase this childish diversion tactic. Other than that your attributing evil to God (talk about heresy ) has already been addressed in posts #2 and #10. God is Truth and no evil comes from Him!

You are asking me to read between the lines and also to read your mind. I've proven over the years to be really cruddy at that. I agree with you that God is truth and that no evil comes from Him. But we must also take that a step farther... There IS evil in this world, so either it came from God, if only by permissive indirect will, OR it came from another god who, the God of the Bible must defeat (your words, your thoughts, as expressed above).

So, which is it? IS there another god whom created evil and whom the God of the Bible must defeat in order to be truly GOD?

You have so far not been able to articulate that, and are instead dancing around and accusing me of being a coward, of arguing unfairly, and I'm sure a few other things.

Just answer the very simple question I pose... IS THERE ANOTHER god?

I'm calling your tactics of debate cowardly and suggesting you should consider treating others as you would in person rather than engaging in your childish antics. Nice try, but I wouldn't begin to come down to your level of argument on the internet.

I believe that were we in person, other than having a cup of coffee ready at hand, you would find me saying precisely the same things as I do on the board. I have and will continue to have these sorts of conversations for real and in person. What cannot be conveyed by the mere text on a page is the non-verbal cues that tip us off as to whether or not a person is writing something out of anger, curiosity, humility, etc.

My tactics, by the way, are not cowardly at all. Ever read a theological journal? Same things get said all the time as theologians battle back and forth.

Now, again, are you actually threatening me personally? IF so, then I will be happy to call in a moderator.

 

[webdog]

So, if I boil down everything you said above, you ACTUALLY believe that there is some other person, force, et al, that can stand before God and whom God has to conquor in order to be God?

No wonder you are so confused...

You believe Mormon doctrine. :BangHead:

Finally...a REAL opportunity to show what a true strawman fallacy is!

 

[Amy.G]

Did I read correctly that some people think God has adversaries?

Really?


Satan can't wiggle without God's permission. God has authority over Satan and all his minions.

Satan is OUR adversary. Death is OUR enemy. Christ has defeated them on OUR behalf, not His own.