How do we define what is good and evil?

[glfredrick]

Wrong. Again, this is a perfect example of a strawman. Nobody here said, alluded to, even hinted at ANYONE being able to defeat God. Learn!

Webdog, if I had not asked the question multiple times and made it VERY evident what I was asking -- yet recieved no positive answer, then it is you who are wrong.

It was not only "hinted" but proclaimed.

I gave multiple opportunties for those making their claims to reconsider what they were in fact saying.

Even Amy caught on and commented. So this time, stop standing up for your buddies and see what they actually wrote for once.

 

[webdog]

Webdog, if I had not asked the question multiple times and made it VERY evident what I was asking -- yet recieved no positive answer, then it is you who are wrong.

It was not only "hinted" but proclaimed.

I gave multiple opportunties for those making their claims to reconsider what they were in fact saying.

Even Amy caught on and commented. So this time, stop standing up for your buddies and see what they actually wrote for once.

what a lame retort, because someone didn't consciously refute your caricature they agreed with it? BAHAHA :laugh:

Amy was commenting off your caricature, btw. She never made such a claim.

I guess since I don't address the atheists' Flying Spaghetti Monster I must believe in it. :laugh:

 

[Benjamin]

I agree with you that God is truth and that no evil comes from Him. But...

…by His own divine revelation, HOLY, and WITHOUT EVIL, yes, I would attribute the existence of evil in this world to Him alone.

“Truth”?! You obviously struggle with this concept not only from a philosophical viewpoint, but worse than that from within your own mind concerning faith. We’ve had this discussion pertaining to logic, real (true) faith and knowing the “TRUTH” in one’s own heart before and you ran from it!

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=71728&page=2

You seriously need to get a grip on your double-speak and recognize how to separate a true claim from one that has no truth in it! “without evil/you would attribute evil to Him/you would agree with me that no evil comes from Him” LISTEN to this double speak of yours!!! Give me a break! :BangHead:

God did not create evil, therefore YOU cannot attribute it to Him, that is an impossibility according to scripture and pertaining to His Nature, Deut 32:4, it is philosophically illogical to try to have it both ways; and we are told from the scriptures were evil came from, it was found in Satan, after he was created perfect:

(Eze 28:15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

(Eze 28:16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

(Eze 28:17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Adversary, opposition, enemy, accuser… call it what you will, but the victory is not against a figment of my imagination…and “it” (“EVIL” - THE POINT OF THIS DISCUSSION) is certainly not pertaining to God’s victory against Himself (The evil you attribute to Him!):

(1Co 15:57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(1Jn 5:4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever - This expression implies the most unlimited universality. Is born of God overcometh the world - Conquers whatever it can lay in the way, either to allure or fright the children of God from keeping his commandments. And this is the victory - The grand means of overcoming. Even our faith - Seeing all things are possible to him that believeth. ~ John Wesley

(Rev 12:10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 12:10
Now is come - Hence it is evident that all this chapter belongs to the trumpet of the seventh angel. In Rev_11:15-18, are proposed the contents of this extensive trumpet; the execution of which is copiously described in this and the following chapters. The salvation - Of the saints. The might - Whereby the enemy is cast out. The kingdom - Here the majesty of God is shown. And the power of his Christ - Which he will exert against the beast; and when he also is taken away, then will the kingdom be ascribed to Christ himself, Rev_19:16; Rev_20:4. The accuser of our brethren - So long as they remained on earth. This great voice, therefore, was the voice of men only. Who accused them before our God day and night - Amazing malice of Satan, and patience of God! ~ John Wesley

(Eze 28:15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

(Eze 28:16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Now, again, are you actually threatening me personally? IF so, then I will be happy to call in a moderator.

Get off it! Your hypocrisy and comprehension problems never end, do they?! I already answered “your” strawman clearly in post #37! And it is no surprise you would resort back to this type of childish defense again to advert from your actions and this discussion which I was addressing.

 

[Iconoclast]

Your argument leaves no alternative but for evil to be determined by God. And your only defense to your argument which concludes such is to engage in the kind of childish rhetoric below:



Which you will do while hiding behind a keyboard but neither you or Icono would have the courage to demonstrate the same level of disrespectful accusations to my face. Your abilities to support your arguments are limited to such tactics. Says a lot about you both.

Next time I stop at the truckstop in glendale..pilot/flying j....i will have no trouble meeting you face to face my friend.

You know where it is right...i will let you know when i can come through...i was up on I-40 this week....not I-10 as much...but once in awhile.

 

[Benjamin]

I challeneged Skandelon about this other "actual adversary" for I (rightly) see that he means by that SOME ENEMY OF GOD THAT COULD ACTUALLY CHALLENGE GOD!

What on earth makes you think either Skandelon or myself believes any challenge toward God will not be defeated?! Please quote either of us saying this.

The point is that there is an actual (evil) adversary and it is not God who is being challenged by Himself (He having an evil side on the chessboard)...

 

[Benjamin]

Next time I stop at the truckstop in glendale..pilot/flying j....i will have no trouble meeting you face to face my friend.

Go ahead, and engage in the kind of disrespectful accusations I was addressing and see where it gets you. :saint: You will be thoroughly humiliated if you do friend.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy was commenting off your caricature, btw. She never made such a claim.

I was commenting on what I had read in Ben's post and throughout the thread. But this is getting too intense for me, so I think I'll let you boys have it.

 

[Iconoclast]

As I said definitions.

I believe some were saying "adversary" as if there was a real opponent that was strong enough to win. We of course know that Satan in no way has the power that God has and can not defeat God. I believe that is what some were trying to say. They would say God has no real adversary kinda like we would say if we were in a contest against someone that could never beat us.

You have read it correctly...JBH...that is what AMYG clearly meant.

Webdog.....GLF wanted an answer......Does evil exist apart from God allowing or controlling it fully.....yes or no?

 

[jbh28]

Come on, you do know what circumstantial evidence is, don't you? When I have time and not on my tiny phone I'll go back through these 6 pages and make my case.

Ironic you didn't answer my question though

I thought my post 54 did the trick.

As I said definitions.

I believe some were saying "adversary" as if there was a real opponent that was strong enough to win. We of course know that Satan in no way has the power that God has and can not defeat God. I believe that is what some were trying to say. They would say God has no real adversary kinda like we would say if we were in a contest against someone that could never beat us.

 

[webdog]

I was commenting on what I had read in Ben's post and throughout the thread. But this is getting too intense for me, so I think I'll let you boys have it.

Clearly you must have been influenced as neither Benjamin nor Skan even hinted at that. Its fine that you crossed back over...but please still at least be subjective and don't resort to the debate tactics that are so infamous from your new running mates.

 

[Iconoclast]

Go ahead, and engage in the kind of disrespectful accusations I was addressing and see where it gets you. :saint: You will be thoroughly humiliated if you do friend.

Not in this lifetime my friend....I will let you know when I am coming through...

and engage in the kind of disrespectful accusations

like your avatars,and smileys???

 

[webdog]

You have read it correctly...JBH...that is what AMYG clearly meant.

Webdog.....GLF wanted an answer......Does evil exist apart from God allowing or controlling it fully.....yes or no?

He's received his answer time and time again. Nobody has ever argued that God has not permitted evil to exist.

 

[Benjamin]

I was commenting on what I had read in Ben's post and throughout the thread. But this is getting too intense for me, so I think I'll let you boys have it.

Chicken! :laugh:

 

[webdog]

Can we put the machismo grandstanding to bed, or I'll have to meet all of you to lay the smack down

 

[Amy.G]

Clearly you must have been influenced as neither Benjamin nor Skan even hinted at that. Its fine that you crossed back over...but please still at least be subjective and don't resort to the debate tactics that are so infamous from your new running mates.

I'm not using any "tactics". I read it that way immediately. I am being honest. No tactics here.

 

[jbh28]

I don't want to be the forum police, but lets try to post about what we believe and attack actual positions of others. Let's not assume a position. The hostility seems to be growing and this is a good subject that can be discussed. I've seen both sides say something about the other that is not correct. Both cases, it was built on using your own understanding of the term and using the words of the other while ignoring their understanding of the term. That's why I said we need to define our terms.

 

[Amy.G]

Chicken! :laugh:

You got that right! Hey I'm pretty tough, but I'm still a girl. An old girl, but still a girl. :tongue3:

 

[Iconoclast]

Of course not, but THAT is NOT what is being debated here.

What IS being debated is that there is SOME (one, thing, entity, etc.) that GOD must defeat in order to be soley God.

My point is that there is no entity that must be defeated for God to be God.

Here is the opening salvo in this issue:



I challeneged Skandelon about this other "actual adversary" for I (rightly) see that he means by that SOME ENEMY OF GOD THAT COULD ACTUALLY CHALLENGE GOD!

My response to that statement is/was as follows:



From there, Benjamin reitterated Skandelon's statement:



My statement was clear. There is NONE who can challenge God. Even Satan is shown in Scripture as having to ask God permission to act. There is NO enemy that God must defeat in order to be God. Yet, the challenge to that statement continues.

I am not arguing that God -- FOR US -- has defeated death, Satan, and hell, but none of those are actual challenges to God, Himself. To say otherwise is purely heretical and yes, I AM bringing out the H word for this argument.

Who can stand before God?

What other god is there that does not bow to God Almighty.

Whom does God have to defeat in order to be God?

Whom can ACTUALLY fight against God and have any hope of success?

The answer is NNE. God is sovereign -- PERIOD. There is no challenge to the God of the Bible.

So, what say you?

Exactly on the money.....God is God...to suggest that any created thing exists or operates outside of his control is heretical...unless someone invents another god... All christians start there or they are not speaking about theology...but sci-fi.

 

[webdog]

I'm not using any "tactics". I read it that way immediately. I am being honest. No tactics here.

I don't see how...but that would explain why you went back to that doctrine

 

[Iconoclast]

He's received his answer time and time again. Nobody has ever argued that God has not permitted evil to exist.

Webdog,
Which post has answered his question? do you mean on another thread?
This should not even be a point of contention among christians....I cannot believe anyone would even question it. Everyone should agree with GLF on this point.