How do we define what is good and evil?

[glfredrick]

Did I read correctly that some people think God has adversaries?

Really?


Satan can't wiggle without God's permission. God has authority over Satan and all his minions.

Satan is OUR adversary. Death is OUR enemy. Christ has defeated them on OUR behalf, not His own.

Sad day on the BB... :tear:

Skandelon was the first to propose it, and when I responded firmly, he never returned to answer my questions.

Then Benjamin picked up on it and pressed it harder, but he too fails to actually answer my questions.

Now, Webdog picks up on it because he smells blood and comes running... But he too cannot answer the question (or can he?).

 

[webdog]

Glf...ever read 2 Cor. 4:4? While I admit it is figurative, did not the Holy Spirit inspire that usage? Benjamin is simply stating Christ defeated sin, death and the curse. You disagree with THAT?

 

[webdog]

Did I read correctly that some people think God has adversaries?

Really?


Satan can't wiggle without God's permission. God has authority over Satan and all his minions.

Satan is OUR adversary. Death is OUR enemy. Christ has defeated them on OUR behalf, not His own.

Amy, the very hebrew word for satan is "adversary". Do you think Is. 14:12-14 is dealing with man?!? When satan fell it was due to BEING God's adversary, wanting to dethrone Him!

 

[jbh28]

You guys wouldn’t recognize a valid deductive argument if it jumped up and bit your nose off, and your misuse of the term “strawman” for a line of defense factually amounts to nothing more than a means for you to go into whining about what the conclusion a valid argument demonstrates about your position.

1. no reason for person attacks Benjamin. Let's not resort to that.

2. There is no misuse of straw man. If one posts something about someone else that they don't believe, then it's straw man. This happens many times. So it's not a valid conclusion on our position because it's not our position.

 

[InTheLight]

Did I read correctly that some people think God has adversaries?

Really?

I can see both sides of this argument but how do you treat these verses? Are not the beast and the false prophet an adversary of Christ?

Rev 19: 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations.

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

 

[jbh28]

It may be wise to define what the term "adversary" means.

 

[webdog]

1. no reason for person attacks Benjamin. Let's not resort to that.

2. There is no misuse of straw man. If one posts something about someone else that they don't believe, then it's straw man. This happens many times. So it's not a valid conclusion on our position because it's not our position.

1. Glfrederick gets a passs?

2. Strawman is deliberately twisting someones argument, then defeating that caricature. Your definition is off. See glfrederick's caricature of Benjamin's beliefs for a true example.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, the very hebrew word for satan is "adversary". Do you think Is. 14:12-14 is dealing with man?!? When satan fell it was due to BEING God's adversary, wanting to dethrone Him!

People want to dethrone God too. Are people God's adversaries?

God won the battle before it ever started.

 

[Amy.G]

It may be wise to define what the term "adversary" means.

You are probably right.

 

[jbh28]

1. Glfrederick gets a passs?

I only responded to Benjamin because he was speaking to me. There has been other posts that shouldn't been posted.

2. Strawman is deliberately twisting someones argument, then defeating that caricature. Your definition is off. See glfrederick's caricature of Benjamin's beliefs for a true example.

True, but you know what I mean. I figured the latter part was understood.

 

[webdog]

It may be wise to define what the term "adversary" means.

how else can you describe it? Instead lets put to rest this lame caricature that there are tiny gods running around the universe and believe the Bible that God is not His own adversary as the determinist would have us believe

 

[webdog]

People want to dethrone God too. Are people God's adversaries?

God won the battle before it ever started.

so are now conceding satan is an adversary of God unlike before?

 

[jbh28]

how else can you describe it? Instead lets put to rest this lame caricature that there are tiny gods running around the universe and believe the Bible that God is not His own adversary as the determinist would have us believe

Who believes on here that God is His own adversary? Any quotes on this?

 

[jbh28]

so are now conceding satan is an adversary of God unlike before?

As I said definitions.

I believe some were saying "adversary" as if there was a real opponent that was strong enough to win. We of course know that Satan in no way has the power that God has and can not defeat God. I believe that is what some were trying to say. They would say God has no real adversary kinda like we would say if we were in a contest against someone that could never beat us.

 

[webdog]

Who believes on here that God is His own adversary? Any quotes on this?

What are we supposed to conclude given that sin and evil are in the world...yet God has no adversaries (per glf and Amy)? What is left?

 

[jbh28]

What are we supposed to conclude given that sin and evil are in the world...yet God has no adversaries (per glf and Amy)? What is left?

Ok, so you don't have any quotes from anyone that believes God is his own adversary, yet you posted it anyway. How come you would make up something like that? There are other options on the table for what they mean without posting straw men like this. (good example of how a straw man can worth though)

 

[glfredrick]

Glf...ever read 2 Cor. 4:4? While I admit it is figurative, did not the Holy Spirit inspire that usage? Benjamin is simply stating Christ defeated sin, death and the curse. You disagree with THAT?

Of course not, but THAT is NOT what is being debated here.

What IS being debated is that there is SOME (one, thing, entity, etc.) that GOD must defeat in order to be soley God.

My point is that there is no entity that must be defeated for God to be God.

Here is the opening salvo in this issue:

It has always amazed me that some consider it more powerful and 'sovereign' for God to 'play both sides of the chess board' (so to speak), rather than to win a real victory over an actual adversary.

I challeneged Skandelon about this other "actual adversary" for I (rightly) see that he means by that SOME ENEMY OF GOD THAT COULD ACTUALLY CHALLENGE GOD!

My response to that statement is/was as follows:

God has to win no victory over any actual adversary. None exists who can stand at the feet of God and overcome Him.

HE IS GOD! NNE ELSE IS GOD!

From there, Benjamin reitterated Skandelon's statement:

It is beyond ridiculous that you would openly claim there is no “ACTUAL adversary (evil, sin, and death - SATAN!) to win victory over” and then go about calling it a “heretical statement” for your opposition to ask how it is that there is both: no “actual adversary” and yet God is sovereign over something/anything??? IOWs how it is that God is “playing both sides of the chess board” (both good and evil?)? Can you not see how illogical and fallacious your argument is?! You make a totally illogical claim of “strawman and heresy” and turn toward this Ad Hominem through these accusations of heresy and speak of strawman fallacy while not even offering a valid argument how the claim of your opponent in not true! Sorry bud, but your philosophical debate skills are sorely lacking...quit abusing and trying to rely on terms that you don't fully understand the purpose for or meaning of.

My statement was clear. There is NONE who can challenge God. Even Satan is shown in Scripture as having to ask God permission to act. There is NO enemy that God must defeat in order to be God. Yet, the challenge to that statement continues.

I am not arguing that God -- FOR US -- has defeated death, Satan, and hell, but none of those are actual challenges to God, Himself. To say otherwise is purely heretical and yes, I AM bringing out the H word for this argument.

Who can stand before God?

What other god is there that does not bow to God Almighty.

Whom does God have to defeat in order to be God?

Whom can ACTUALLY fight against God and have any hope of success?

The answer is NNE. God is sovereign -- PERIOD. There is no challenge to the God of the Bible.

So, what say you?

 

[glfredrick]

As I said definitions.

I believe some were saying "adversary" as if there was a real opponent that was strong enough to win. We of course know that Satan in no way has the power that God has and can not defeat God. I believe that is what some were trying to say. They would say God has no real adversary kinda like we would say if we were in a contest against someone that could never beat us.

Actually, that is PRECISELY what they are arguing FOR!

 

[webdog]

Ok, so you don't have any quotes from anyone that believes God is his own adversary, yet you posted it anyway. How come you would make up something like that? There are other options on the table for what they mean without posting straw men like this. (good example of how a straw man can worth though)

Come on, you do know what circumstantial evidence is, don't you? When I have time and not on my tiny phone I'll go back through these 6 pages and make my case.

Ironic you didn't answer my question though

 

[webdog]

Actually, that is PRECISELY what they are arguing FOR!

Wrong. Again, this is a perfect example of a strawman. Nobody here said, alluded to, even hinted at ANYONE being able to defeat God. Learn!