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Featured How do we define what is good and evil?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Mar 4, 2012.

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  1. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Skandelon, you have posted as if God has some actual adversary to whom He might loose a battle.

    All I can say to that is that THAT is not Christian thought.

    The primary enemy of God -- Satan -- is nothing more than a servant of the Most High God. That God defeated him is definite. It happened. But that was more to allow Satan to hang himself out to dry, and all the rebellious ones who may pervert the eternal kingdom with him, not so much that there was an actual threat to the Throne of God.
     
    #101 glfredrick, Mar 10, 2012
  2. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    Remember that the word "adversary" means enemy. God has a real enemy. He doesn't have an enemy that is capable of defeating Him.
     
    #102 jbh28, Mar 10, 2012
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    :thumbs: Well said. And NO ONE here ever suggested that Satan could, would, or might defeat God. That was either a gross misinterpretation or an intentional strawman attack.

    The argument was that God's power is better reflected in defeating an actual adversary, a real enemy, rather than the concept of defeating himself....as if God has determined (ordained/fixed) the choice/actions of Satan just as He did his own choices/actions.

    If you want to affirm with us that Satan's choices and acts are FREE (not determined by God) then be my guest, but from what I've heard so far I doubt you are ready to affirm that.
     
    #103 Skandelon, Mar 10, 2012
  4. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Well, I guess some of you guys know Satan better than I do, so I'll leave it up to you... :laugh:
     
    #104 glfredrick, Mar 10, 2012
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    We know scripture (which teaches of Satan, the adversary), yes.

    I'd appreciate you editing your post in which you called my views heretical now that you have conceded this point. Thanks
     
    #105 Skandelon, Mar 10, 2012
  6. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #106 quantumfaith, Mar 10, 2012
  7. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Let's review...

    Here is what was posted that you responded to:

    And your heretical response:

    God does not play "both sides of the chessboard" and you are the only one that ever says that around here.

    Also, the victory of God over Satan, death, and hell was never in question. He has always been victorious. It was the devil that thought he had a chance -- or so it seems TO US -- for he already knew his fate. I recall the times when Jesus was casting out demons that THEY well knew Him and His ultimate power. Doesn't sound to me as if God had to fight some battle, but rather that He merely put the devil in his place when the time was right for that to happen.

    Again, do you really suppose that God ACTUALLY had to fight some other godly-sized foe and that there was ever any choice in the victory of God? That IS indeed heretical!
     
    #107 glfredrick, Mar 10, 2012
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    So, are you saying that the idea of God playing both sides of the chess board (that which I'm accusing determinists of teaching 'so to speak') is heretical or that my view that he doesn't play both sides, but that he has an actual adversary that he really does defeat is heretical?

    Let's recap: I'm accusing determinists (which you have denied being, so that shouldn't affect you) of teaching that God 'plays both sides of the chess board' (so to speak, in that he ordains/fixes/determines both the moves of his adversary and his own moves). And you accuse me of heresy while at the same time denying that you are a determinists who believes that God plays both sides of the chess board? Shouldn't you be in agreement with me on that point?

    You seem to be contradicting yourself, so please clarify.

    Who said it was? If I lost a game of chess to expert chess champion Bobby Fisher, then his opponent was real and free but still wholly deficient. His victory isn't in question because his ability so far outweighs mine. Multiply that analogy by a trillion or so and we get a glimpse of the reality of God's abilities above his opponents. Nevertheless, the opponent is REAL and FREE, not a make believe puppet controlled by God.

    Had too? No. He chose to. We already discussed that point.

    The imagery of a battle is one employed by the scriptures, and is not original with me.

    Where do you get this? "godly sized foe"???? Who said this?

    Again, you are BATTLING a strawman.
     
    #108 Skandelon, Mar 10, 2012
  9. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Since no one actually sees that God plays both sides of the chessboard, you started the strawman.

    And, since there is no enemy that can stand in God's presence, that too is neither accurate nor scriptural.

    Guess we're at a stalemate.
     
    #109 glfredrick, Mar 10, 2012
  10. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    There is either an opponent sitting on the other side of that chessboard or there is not. Your claim that no one "actually" sees that has been centered on multiple fallicious circular arguments that have avoided what "actually" means.

    Now, you want to claim a stalemate without "actually" even sitting down at the table.
     
    #110 Benjamin, Mar 11, 2012
  11. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    In case you haven't noticed, I've been here... Oh, and in case you failed to notice, there ISN'T A CHESSBOARD... :BangHead:
     
    #111 glfredrick, Mar 11, 2012
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    As the phrase 'so to speak' indicates, this is an expression which I explained. Do you affirm that God is as 'in control' of the good decisions as the bad ones? Has God determined/fixed the choices of Satan, or is Satan contra-causally free? If you believe Satan is only doing what He was created by God to do, and he could have done no other, then that is what I mean by 'playing both sides of the chess board.' If you deny that then just say so and explain your actual view.

    You're just avoiding the issue. In Job, Satan and God had a confrontation. Whether that is figurative or not doesn't matter to the point of this discussion.
     
    #112 Skandelon, Mar 11, 2012
  13. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    I'm not sure Satan was in heaven when he was with those (men) who presented themselves before the Lord. Cain also went away from the presence of the Lord, but he wasn't in heaven. Satan doesn't have to be in heaven to talk with God. How foolish.
     
    #113 jonathan.borland, Mar 11, 2012
  14. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    If Satan "could do other," then could Satan repent and be saved? We know that the Revelation of John prophesies that Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire. (Revelation 20:10)
    We also know from Jesus that hell is "prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)

    Can the devil or any one of his (millions of?) angels repent?
    If no, why?
    If yes, why do we not know of a single one that has?

    Does the devil NOW have true libertarian free will? If so, why do we have his eternal fate prophesied? If not, how does he have true libertarian free will?
     
    #114 AresMan, Mar 12, 2012
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Asking more unanswerable questions doesn't prove your theory to be correct, it only introduces more mystery. When we don't know the answer to a question we don't need to invent an answer. Just let scripture stand as it is. I KNOW, you think that it supports your deterministic theories but it never says all that you need it to say to draw such conclusions. Satan is presented as a free, independent, rebellious creature, not a pond of God.

    Plus, it could be argued that once a creature has become fully hardened in their ways to the point that God has 'given them over' and stopped making appeal for reconciliation they have lost their 'ability' to turn because they have lost their 'divine assistance.' With regard to angels these things are certainly just mysteries, not something on which to base our theological system. I will say one thing with certainty, any system that even implies that God determined satan to do moral evil is a system that impugns the holy nature of God and is clearly unbiblical.
     
    #115 Skandelon, Mar 12, 2012
  16. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    AGAIN, you set up something (or someone) HIGHER than God...

    That is the only way around your dilemma... God is either God or something (someone) else is God. Worship the HIGHEST ONE. I'll take the God of the Bible, thank you very much. Can't say that human free will, or some "hardened being" are worthy of worship.
     
    #116 glfredrick, Mar 12, 2012
  17. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    Glfredrick, I thought you've said that Satan sinned of his own free will.
     
    #117 jonathan.borland, Mar 12, 2012
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Where did I set up something (or someone) higher than God? Quote my actual words and show how I have made that claim.
     
    #118 Skandelon, Mar 12, 2012
  19. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Once... Just like Adam sinned ONCE. After that, slaves.

    As truly free creatures, they had the true capacity to choose sin or not. Once the choice was made, there is no longer a choice.

    Humans are now born separated from God -- slaves to sin -- and the devil and his demons, not being "born" but living, seemingly forever, are what they have once condemned to be. They made their choice and now the consequences, for there is NO salvation in Christ's atonement for them.

    We are the graced ones. God loved us enough to make a way where there was no way!
     
    #119 glfredrick, Mar 13, 2012
  20. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    In that you exalt a "choice" above God, you have done precisely that. That you are blind to your own words is another matter.

    Either God is ultimately sovereign or He is not. Quit triffling around the edges and looking for some loophole. That is borderline blasphemy.
     
    #120 glfredrick, Mar 13, 2012
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